Indi, IN the most important thing about aotc: (no spoiler)

Discussion in 'Mid West Regional Discussion' started by Club_333, May 17, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. yodafett999 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 2000
    star 4
    Heh, apparently some people can't fathom that the lust for power is all the motivation that there needs to be. Palpatine wants to control the universe and he is doing a pretty good job of going about it. We, of course, know that he ultimately succeeds but we are now learning exactly how he achieves it. Just as we ultimately know Vader's fate and are now seeing exactly how it came about.

    The difference, and maybe this is what you don't like, is that Anakin Skywalker has a 6 part character arc and Palpatine has none whatsoever. He doesn't change throughout the entire series. He puts on a false front for people in the prequels but he does not change the core of his being. He doesn't need to. We understand who and what he is and why he is doing the things he is doing. Well, at least most of us understand why he is doing these things. He is the catalyst for the turmoil in the galaxy and he sparks the change in the other characters. He is static and that's exactly what he needs to be.

    I understand what you are saying but this is not Palpatine's story. This is not the story of the Sith. They are given the broad backgrounds and simple motivations so that we can understand their place in the tale. Just as the Jedi are. We know that for a thousand generations they were the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy. Do we know how they started? No. Do we need to know? No. It's not necessary to the story and would be poor writing to throw it in there for any reason other than serving the plot.

    I also think you are getting ahead of yourself. There is still one more part of the story to go.

    Edit: Perhaps I've been watching the wrong Special Editions but I haven't seen, nor have I heard, of any plot reconstruction or plugging sequences. All changes have been cosmetic in nature and have had no bearing on the plot. This is unlikely to change with the "ultimate" editions. In fact, as of this point, I see no plot holes at all in the series. Any perceived plot holes also have the benefit of one final film to change those erroneous perceptions.
  2. QUEEN-KARENDALA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2001
    star 4
    Cling-c ling... here comes my two cents....

    Star Wars is about escaping your life for how ever long you want it to. Like Jedimama said... its about choices... choices that creatures endowed with free-will are compelled to make. Ana kin could have handled things differently and sat next to Mace and Yoda on the Jedi Council some day... so could have Qui-Gon, for that matter. I know the choices of Qui-Gon could take up a thread on its own, but I think we are sufficiently off topic at the moment anyway.

    If you are THAT interested in backstory and motivation, OBG, perhapse you should start a thread explaining what crappy has happened in your life to make you bitter and fuel your angst, when you call yourself a fan of the Star Wars Universe, but seem to only take delight in trying to destroy it.


    back to the posted topic of the thread

    I think the most important thing about AOTC is to reiterate the classic 80's song... "LOVE STINKS"
    ;)
  3. SynthLord Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2002
    star 1
    LoL. I love how this thread is getting so nasty. It's inspired me to start posting again...LoL. I have been known to complain about many things concerning the prequels (3PO and R2 being in the prequels, midiclorians, horrible scripts, cgi overload) but when people start dissing the OT.... that's when I get defensive...LoL. The only disagreement I have with this thread is with whoever said Star Wars was "JUST A MOVIE" WTF? For anyone who was a kid in 1977 when the first film was released (at least boys), Star Wars was a pivotal moment in time... Our generation's version of the Beatles. It thrust our imaginations into hyperdrive and we were forever changed after watching it. We instantly wanted to know everything we could about the characters. We spent every recess pretending to be Han Solo or Luke Skywalker and we had to own every action figure (an addiction so strong that you still see grown men desparately scrounging every nickle and penny they can find to buy up all the Dexter Jettster variants... I've seen crackheads with more self control). This is why people are so passionate, either pro or con, about the prequels. Men in Black is "just a movie". Star Wars was a cultural milestone.
  4. yodafett999 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 2000
    star 4
    I agree with you, Synthlord, but in relation to reality.....it's just a movie. When trying to pick apart every minute detail and question everything you have to remind yourself that suspension of disbelief is a wonderful and joyous thing and let it take you over. Especially when asking questions to which the answers do not matter and should not detract from your enjoyment of the film itself.

    If I didn't love Star Wars so much and believe it was more than the sum of its parts then I, and a good many people, wouldn't be here.
  5. R2-B9 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2001
    star 3
    Here's the background on Palpy's desire..

    He enjoys what he's doing. For him, it is not a job, but a love. He's evil because it is what gets him what he wants, in the easiest and (for him) most entertaining fashion. If he wasn't seeking the quick and dirty solution to controlling his universe, he'd be a Jedi master like Yoda. But, you see, he's human. And humans are flawed with internal struggles and weakness to self-gratification.

    He is the embodiment of absolute power corrupting absolutely. He may have been a nice kid, or even an adorable baby at one point. But, at some point, he discovered that he could tap into a power that could give him everything he ever wanted, and he made the choice that he was going to exploit it for everything he could. And he did, up to his death.

    Should we feel sorry for him? Only in the sense that we should have compassion for anyone. Whether that compassion is based on realizing the waste of his life, and what greatness he could possibly have achieved, that is for personal introspection.

    More on the life of Palpatine, after this commercial break from C-3PO's breakfast cereal!

    R2-B9
  6. OriginalBryGuy Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 1
    Ah YodaFett999/Jeff, you have much to learn young Padawan, not only about movies, but the very saga you hold so dearly.

    I think lord hit more of what I was trying to say.

    When Star Wars (Episode IV) opened, it was innovative. It was engaging. It was something no one had seen before and paved the way for sci-fi to really take a hold of cinema in a way that didn't before.

    But was it the story that people hadn't seen before or were they dazzled by the special effects? 'A New Hope' had a decent enough story but it's nothing that was too original. Lucas and millions have said it before - it's a synergy of mythology and simpler tales from history.

    Now in Empire and Jedi Lucas seemed to be developing the story more, giving us more substance to deal with, but he's always been more impressed with the special effects then the actual story itself. Palpatine is just a small example of what I'm talking about. Motive is a very important part of any story.

    The more believable a motive is the more believable the situation can be. If you truly think that evil is just evil and you're happy with that fine, I just wouldn't call it quality writing cause it isn't. Anyone can write a story about simple good versus simple evil. The real talent is coming up with plausible reasons.

    Hear me now, believe it in a 101 writing class later.
  7. R2-B9 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2001
    star 3
    George Lucas never said Star Wars was a writing exercise.. He has always said that it is a visual film story that he wants to tell, and in the manner he wants to tell it. He has said in the past that images are more important than words. If you approach Star Wars as a visual piece, where dialogue and music are compliments, you see where he's coming from.

    If you want background on all the characters, read the novels and comic books. Eventually they'll get around to your favorite.

    Do you understand now?

    George
  8. SynthLord Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2002
    star 1
    Hey, I think I read in one of the "Advanced Guide to Star Wars Characters for People with far too much Free Time" that Palpatine's lust to rule the universe stems from his being raised in an Evil Petting Zoo.
  9. R2-B9 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2001
    star 3
    Yes, that is true. He was the baby sarlaac wrangler. He spent most of his youth pulling other kids out of it.

    R2-B9
  10. OriginalBryGuy Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 1
    I understand that many have claimed that George Lucas is a master storyteller. I'm just trying to explain that I think the jury is still out on that point. If the saga is a masterpiece why continue to tinker with it.

    Greedo now firing first? That's nothing compared to what he could do by the time it's all finished. Do people who love this saga dearly really want to see that or blindly accept it at master storytelling? I don't...

    Don't get me wrong. I'm a huge Star Wars fan. I'd just hate to see it go down the tubes at this point.
  11. Jedimama Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 1999
    star 3
    I'm gonna make alot of people mad with this very blatant (and extremely biased opinion):

    If you cannot remember seeing the orignal Star Wars movie in the theater in 1977, then I fear you really have little or no clue what its all about.

    Hate me yet???? [face_devil]

    If this was just a movie, believe me we wouldn't be spending this much time talking about it. And tying up all the 'loose ends' would just be downright boring because there are some things every indivual needs to figure out for themselves. A good story - and good writing - will spark the imagination. One that explains everything is little more than an encyclopedia.
    Star Wars is all about imagination. Its not what is, but what might be and what could be.

    I don't care about Palpys motives, personally. All I need to know is that Palpy darkness and evil embodied. Like Yoda said:

    There is no why....

    Oh yea...

    No more will I teach you today...

    8-}

    I hope you all know I love you all. :D
  12. SynthLord Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2002
    star 1
    Yo Mama, I'm with ya!. Don't trust a Star Wars fan under 30!
  13. OriginalBryGuy Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 1
    Man, and Obi thought Anakin was stubborn. Forget Palpy already. I'm not talking about the cultural event in '77 that was Star Wars 'A New Hope'. It was new, it was different and deserves its place.

    I think saying that anyone who didn't experience in the theatre doesn't know what it's all about is much more harsh then me saying Lucas isn't necessarily a master storyetller. haha.

    In 1977, Lucas needed special effects to tell his story. Now, he's using his story to do more special effects. The fact is, to this day NO one knows what the whole saga is all about and I think that is what has caused all this petty bickering in the first place.

    So you're old enough to say you saw A New Hope in a theatre - that's great, but I wouldn't say we all can't grasp the basic story. There isn't much there to begin with.
  14. SynthLord Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2002
    star 1
    We old people aren't saying that you younglings can't grasp the story. We are saying that you can't grasp the how truly thrilling it was to be around when it all started. In 77, there was no cable television, no playstation, no internet, no VCRs! You could only see a movie at the theater and that was it. If you were lucky, the movie might be on network television in 2 or 3 years. Before Star Wars, all we little sci-fi geeks had was comic books, Space:1999 and Star Trek reruns. No one had ever seen a Sci-Fi/Fantasy epic with the kind of realism and scope of Star Wars.
    Every element of SW is taken from old Flash Gordon serials, Westerns, Pirate movies, WW2 movies, Samurai movies and ancient mythology but George's genius at that time was how he combined all those elements to make sense in one movie. I agree with the people who say Lucas is pretty unfocused with the prequel stories but few can deny that he had his groove on in the 70's and early 80's.
  15. R2-B9 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2001
    star 3
    You know, for a guy who can't tell a story, he sure has a lot of people all worked up over it. Oh, and hundreds of millions of dollars spent by people wanting to watch his pathetic stories on screen. And tens of thousands of people wanting to hang out in Indianapolis for a weekend just to immerse themselves in the pathetic storyteller's universe.. Nope. I don't buy it. I think he is a great storyteller, because he does what made Alfred Hitchcock so great. He lets the viewer's mind fill in and wonder about the missing parts of the story. Nothing is more potent than visualizing something in your own mind.

    If you want background information, read the novels and SW encyclopedia. If you want entertainment, watch the movies.

    And Jedimama, of course I still love you! Even if you are so young! ;)

    R2-B9





  16. SynthLord Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2002
    star 1
    Perhaps the Indy Knights should start a new Star Wars debate team sig. That could fun.
  17. yodafett999 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 2000
    star 4
    Much to learn about movies? You obviously don't know me. If there is one thing in this world that I know, and there might only be the one thing, it is movies. I'd say I have a pretty good grasp on writing as well. I've been doing it for a very long time.

    I can say this again and again but apparently you are a bit too blind to see it. Palpatine's motives mean nothing to Anakin Skywalker's story. If this story was about Palpatine then, yes, we would need motivations. We need to know Anakin's motives. We need to know Padme's motives. We need to know Obi-Wan's motives.

    Again I will also bring up that you already know Palpatine's motive. You just don't seem to like it or want to admit it. Palpatine wants power, he wants to control the universe, and all things in the series lead up to that end. Is it that hard to comprehend?

    I don't mind a pure evil scenario because I know it exists in this world, why wouldn't it exist in that one?

    What motivation do you need for the creature in Alien to kill? Do you need to know the sequence of events that lead up to the Vito Corleone that we know in The Godfather in order to enjoy that film? No. Does everything you learn in The Godfather, Part 2 make you understand Vito a bit better? Sure. Is it necessary for your enjoyment of the first film? Not at all.

    It has nothing to do with bad writing. Bad writing would not show you any of Palpatine's machinations behind the scenes and would just assume that you understood how he came to power. It would have shown you an unassuming Senator from the planet of Naboo and then it would have shown you an evil Emperor that takes over the galaxy. Lucas is showing you, in pretty great detail, exactly how Palpatine ascended to his role of Emperor. This isn't a comic book. We don't need an origin story for each character.

    "Now in Empire and Jedi Lucas seemed to be developing the story more, giving us more substance to deal with, but he's always been more impressed with the special effects then the actual story itself."

    Now we have arrived at the crux of the problem. As George up there said, Lucas is a visual storyteller. The story is there and it is very important to him but the visuals are what he wants to use to convey that story. As much as he enjoys the special effects........the story comes first. If you don't believe that then you really need to examine how well you know Star Wars.

    "Dialogue should simply be a sound among other sounds, just something that comes out of the mouths of people whose eyes tell the story in visual terms." -- Alfred Hitchcock

  18. SynthLord Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2002
    star 1
    Hey YodaFett, I agree that Star Wars is a essentially a visual story. (That's probably why I'm bored to tears whenever I try to read an EU novel) I remember reading an interview with Lucas where he said that with the Star Wars films he was basically making silent movies. (God knows I wish Ep1 had been silent) Obviously Star Wars movies have to have tons of effects but with all the millions Lucas spends on these endeavors, couldn't he hire a great writer to add some personality and depth to the characters? Now I know people will say The OT wasn't Shakespeare but Eps 4-6 had very tight and focused scripts with lots of memorable lines that we all still recite religiously to this day. Also, the OT was well acted (except the "he's my brother" scene in Jedi) by the lead actors (Yes, even Mark Hamill) Don't get me wrong. I really dug Ep2. Overall, I thinks it's a better movie than RotJ. I agree with you about not needing to know Palpatine's motivation for being evil. Some people are just born to be bad. Palpy was probably the annoying brat in preschool who would throw rocks at kids during recess for no reason at all. Anyway... I think Ep2 is light years beyond Ep1 and I hope Lucas keeps the momentum going to give us the big dark finale we are all craving for Ep3.
  19. QUEEN-KARENDALA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2001
    star 4
    I don't know what the big fuss is about the story anyway... when it comes down to it, its all about the music and the genious of John Williams.

    :D
  20. Jedi_Gepper Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 2001
    star 3
    Yes, to the Queen you listen! Really, "Star Wars" is just an elaborate series of events that further the musical themes of John Williams. All other details are not essential...sort of like "Jaws." When you really think about it, do you remember much about the shark in that movie, or do you remember its theme music? Yeah, that's what I thought. ;)
  21. SynthLord Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2002
    star 1
    Well, not to start a new debate but I found the Ep2 score to be least interesting of all 5 movies. Other than the "love theme" nothing was memorable except the snippets of Vader's theme and Duel of the Fates. But I say again.... I liked Ep2....LoL
  22. Club_333 CR Indy Knights Indianapolis, IN

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2001
    star 4
    i'd have to agree. the soundtrack was not the most gripping.

    theory for the sake of theory:
    amidala is really palpatine's true apprentice. when she gets tossed aside for vader, she uses palpatine's old "let's fight for the republic" rhetoric to gain control of the galaxy as mon mothma. episodes 7-9 are the tale of luke & leia resting control from her!
  23. whojedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2001
    star 3
    I think that Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas, who was "killed" long ago and "allegedly" ordered the Clone Army with the help of Darth Tyrannus, is Darth Sidious.

    Sifo-Dyas
    Sidious


    Sound it out kids...
  24. R2-B9 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2001
    star 3
    and my premise that Palpatine is a clone of Sidious.. a mindless clone that Sidious manipulates from afar.

    EPISODE III, get here NOW!!

    R2-B9
  25. OriginalBryGuy Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 1
    Here's a brain teaser for ya? Did anyone notice that track 6 'Anakin and Padme ' sounds like a certain track 1 'Prologue ' from Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone? I did! The Harry Potter score was also by John Williams so I guess it's ok he's borrowing from his own music, but still. Kinda creepy.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.