Discussion in 'Archive: Census and Games' started by Zizz, Jun 4, 2008.
So are we good?
Eh, I'm going to wait. It's an incredibly important match, and the rest of the round will breeze by considering pretty much all we've got left are forfeits.
If all the rest are forfeits, wouldn't that mean I aready won even if Imhotep loses here? If I am not mistaken I still have Voldemort, Beast and The Ba'al/Cody trump that have not been pulled. If they are all facing forfeits wouldn't that mean I already locked up a 6-4 win even if Imhotep loses?
You both have two forfeits coming, so far, and a third for you, with Cody/Ba'al. Her two forfeits would give you five wins. If Jason wins here, that means that she still has your three forfeits, and then you will need some luck and hope that both Nick and Willow pull them, because if either of them doesn't, it's teams.
Counting your chickens a bit early.
Also, my money is on Jason here. I mean, no one gives a second thought to Imhotep turning himself into a massive wall of water, or an entire desert floor, but we have to somehow imagine that Jason can't turn himself into a giant. Then we also have to pretend that Imhotep's ever had a single challenge besides Rick O'Connell. Yeah...I'm going to say I'm leaning towards the Ranger in this one.
Oh, and then there's the location, that doesn't exactly offer Imhotep any kind of resources to actually control.
I wasn't counting anything. I was clearing up Zizz's comment, which made it sound like everything after this match was forfeits.
both Nick and Willow pull them
I mean, no one gives a second thought to Imhotep turning himself into a massive wall of water, or an entire desert floor, but we have to somehow imagine that Jason can't turn himself into a giant.
Okay, what? lol
1. I'd probably give it a second thought considering Imhotep has never shown either of those feats. That was nothing more than (ridiculously strong TK), and he just happened to sculpt his face into the rushing water and sandstorm.
2. Giant? Care to share when exactly that happened?
which made it sound like everything after this match was forfeits.
"Pretty much" all we've got left are forfeits. There are one or two actual matches.
I was kinda thinking the same thing, more so in regards to point 1 but point 2 is also there. Never saw a ranger go giant.
Rangers have gone Zord size, as Shurron pointed out last draft. Primarily the Mystic Rangers had the ability to increase their size without actually transforming into Zords. That transformation was banned though, mainly because it was pretty much nothing more than a loophole to get around the rule that had banned the overly powerful Zords in the first place.
But more to the point, Gold Jason has never gone Zord size anyways, at least from what I've seen.
I blame my dislike for anything Ranger as the reason I wouldn't know that.
Er...no, they don't have that ability. They turn into Zords themselves. Have you actually seen it? Mystic Rangers don't have Zords because they are the Zords.
As to Jason, no, he never has personally, but "using an ability the Golden Power Staff possessed to make them all grow to Zord-size", Trey was able to turn all of the rangers on his team into zord sized rangers, which were, judging by the scenery, a lot bigger than the Mystic Titans. Jason may not have actually done it, but the fact that the staff he's carrying has enough power to transform the whole team says something about the staff he's carrying.
Ridiculous TK? If you want to call it TK, whatever. Maybe the sand one had something to do with his ability to control sand, but didn't he have to read from the book or do something with an incantation to perform the water version? Tk...pff.
Here you go.
Edit: That would explain why I never actually saw Trey turn them all giant. That was in the final episode, of which I didn't bother to watch the last 5 minutes because I was looking for Jason showings, and I had already read in an episode summary that he transfered the Gold Ranger powers back to Trey early in the episode.
Json may not have actually done it, but the fact that the staff he's carrying has enough power to transform the whole team says something.
It doesn't say much. It's a powerful staff, sure, but that's a terrible argument for Jason. So because Trey was able to grant the Rangers with that size, I'm supposed to believe that that's automatically transferable to Jason? Jason didn't do it. Period. I could easily argue that it wasn't solely the staff, but instead a combination of both it and its alien wielder (Trey) that made for such a powerful showing. I guess Vegeta should have gone with Trey. lol
Jason's no bum, and he's clearly superior to every other Ranger (besides Trey) from Zeo. He consistently took on 6-7 villains while the other Rangers often had trouble with only one. He showed a few neat tricks that the other Rangers didn't. He's still got all the skill, strength, and speed of a typical Ranger. But enough to take Imhotep? God no.
I'll probably give another day or so, but the more I consider this, the more certain I am. Hopefully Shurron turns up soon, and if not, I'll always be willing to give it a second thought after the fact should he make an argument later on in the round.
but didn't he have to read from the book or do something with an incantation to perform the water version? Tk...pff.
No, but he did lift his hands and make a determined face. You can pfft all you want, but I can't imagine it being anything other than Tk.
Well, you have a severely limited imagination then.
You're actually serious, aren't you?
Okay, let's do this then: pretend you're judging this for a second. How exactly would Jason use his staff to beat Imhotep, who, in his immortal form, has never been shown susceptible to physical damage? Would you imagine that Jason would emit an incredibly powerful energy blast that he's never created before to blow Immy's body to bits? Would you imagine that the staff would mind frag opponents upon Jason's command even though its never happened before?
I mean c'mon dude, that's flat out insane. I don't believe for a second that you would honestly judge Jason so freely without a single shred of evidence, and similarly, there's no way in hell I will.
Of course it's insane, because those things you just said are absurd, and I honestly have no idea where you pulled them from.
However, Imhotep not taking damage is...wow, I can't even begin to say how amazing that is, given he's fought...oh, he's fought Rick O'Connell. That's right.
Although, actually, Jason has emitted blasts with the staff before. I guess maybe we disagree about how powerful they are or aren't.
Oh, and about what you said: "I guess Vegeta should have picked Trey", I've been on that side of the Gold Ranger argument since he's been there, but I don't disregard Jason as a good choice for the Gold.
Okay, sorry for forgetting about this, but here's what's wrong with your analysis. When you compare Jason and his sub-par looking powers and skills to that of Rangers from later versions of the show, it's not at all a fair comparison. You're not taking into account that, even though they're still very low budget in comparison to a Hollywood action flick, the special effects in these later shows are a quantum leap above those of the earliest shows, definitely including Zeo. They can now more easily show us what all these Rangers are truly capable of, and what you're doing is looking at these relatively unimpressive looking fight scenes and powers and taking them at face value, when the differnce in the quality of the special effects is critical and needs to be taken into account.
Basically it's the equivalent of totally writing off a high-level character from Final Fantasy VI against one from Final Fantasy VII. Is it much easier to get a firm grasp on Cloud's skill and power level thanks to Advent Children? Naturally. But to completely dismiss, say... Terra in a match against him because she had the unfortunate luck to appear in a game with SNES graphics and a lack of cinematic fights is likely doing her a huge disservice. You have to look deeper to find the things that show that the match would be a lot closer than the pixelated SNES graphics would ever indicate (not that I would vote for Terra over Cloud, but that's neither here nor there).
As proof of this specifically in Jason's case, I offer up this important clip.
So that's from the Wild Force season, which is obviously after they started to use more and more Matrix-y style effects to really punctuate the action scenes and show us how powerful these lame costumed freaks really are. While there's plenty of good moves shown by pretty much anyone, the key fighters to look at are obviously Jason and Tommy. Jason's using the orginal Red Ranger costume here, but where during the original run of the show did Jason (or any Ranger) show anything as flashy as that corkscrew kick he did? They never did because the special effects were lousy, but clearly he is capable of much more than the orginal episodes were ever capable of showing us.
Even more important is actually Tommy, since he's using the Zeo powers and can be used as a direct comparison to Gold Ranger Jason. Isn't the power behind that flying kick of his much, much more impressive than anything he ever did in the actual Zeo episodes? The reason? Bigger budget, better special effects. Now, as you just said, in Zeo, the Gold Ranger powers are far superior to any of the others. Would it not stand to reason that, were we to see the Gold Ranger fighting in one of these newer episodes, that all of his abilities would look far superior to anything we see from him in the Zeo episodes? Would his extreme speed and strength not look much better and more impressive? And most importantly, would the energy blasts and such from the power staff not be far more devastating?
Because if you take the power and skill he showed in the Zeo episodes at face value, then Jason would get completely trounced by any average Ranger from a newer season. And just... no. No, Vida, for example, does not stand a chance against Gold Ranger Jason. It doesn't matter that her powers look flashier than his ever did. Not those boxing gloves, not the Legend powers, none of that would make me vote for her over the Gold Ranger, because he's more powerful, skilled and experienced. Easily. Yeah, Chip's lightning crossbow staggered a mountain-sized monster. The power staff would do better. Because it's more powerful. Whether it looks like it or not.
As for the current match, yep. I have to go with Jason. It is very close, but again, even if it never looks all that impressive, I have to believe that blasts from the power staff are definitely capable of hurting Imhotep. It's one of the more powerful magaical weapons in the draft. And Jas
Another great example of someone getting no upgrade in power, yet getting an upgrade in special effects is Adam's(Second Black Ranger, Green Zeo Ranger) appearance on Operation Overdrive, in which he uses his original Black Ranger powers, which are supposedly inferior to the Zeo Ranger powers, and yet, thanks to the special effects boost of OO, he is on the same level as the OO rangers, as well as, say, the Green Mystic Ranger, who also appears in the same episodes of OO. There's absolutely no other explanation for it other than they simply had a lower budget/worse special effects when he did his original run as the Black Ranger.
Yeah, definitely. And actually, back when I was first researching the Rangers last draft, I stumbled across some message boards where most (not all) of the PR nerds (who all seem to be a lot more knowledgable about this stuff than I ever will be) seemed to be touting the Zeo powers as the overall most powerful of any Rangers. Including the much newer stuff.
But still, when judging these chracters, when we can't know exactly how powerful they really are, it does hurt the older shows a bit. Unfortunately there's no way real way around that. Whether they deserve it or not, they take a slight hit thanks to the crappy special effects. But IMO, it's only slight and I personally refuse to write them off because of that. Especially the Gold one, since it's definitely the most powerful color that doesn't benefit from the Matrix-style combat that started to trickle in somewhere... around Time Force from what I can gather.
Yeah, Time Force pretty much rips off the Matrix directly with the bullet time, which was just about the time that stuff started coming into use.
Oh, here's the episode with Adam in it. This is part two. You don't have to start watching until about 5:00 for Adam, but before that shows some stuff of the villains(the Fear Cats are actually very nasty, and so's that blue guy who was pretty impressive when I was doing research for Overdrive Rangers) and stuff, where you'll see the previously seemingly lame axe of his cut almost as big a furrow in the ground as Tommy's Black Ranger(although, granted, the explosion is not as big).
I understand what you're saying. And it's definitely tough to accurately gauge the power of characters from older shows without giving into that very SFX bias that you bring up. I admit to rushing into a conclusion without spending enough time considering that factor.
At the same time, even with that in mind, I just don't see Jason as powerful enough to beat Imhotep. And I still see him as overrated. I mean, even with everything you said considered, what exactly did he do in Zeo that would have looked so much better in later years? He had that quick run-through of about 5-6 villains where he zaps them with electricity from his staff. He had an energy blast, sure, but it was the same energy blast that all the Rangers had, as they all simultaneously blasted the main villain to defeat him. So that's not really anything too special. What else? Clearly his regular fighting looks worse than it would had that season been made more recently, but I've already considered that having determined that Jason is surely more powerful than every other Ranger on the team. I know he's fast, I know he's strong, and I know he's durable. That isn't really a question, with regards to my own judgment.
The argument that Imhotep doesn't have experience against the more powerful is weak. I could say the same thing about Pinhead, but I'd still consider him a top three character in the draft. And the only reason why Ricky could even dream of hanging with Imhotep was because the mummy was powered down to a mere mortal being by a God after entering the cave. Yeah, I don't buy that for much longer than a second. His high end feats FAR outweigh his low end feats.
Another major advantage for Immy is that his powers are all inherent, whereas Jason depends largely on his staff. And let's not forget that he lost that staff before during a Zeo episode, so it's not like he's able to hang onto it by any means necessary. Immy just happens to have a perfect ability capable of disarming his opponent if he feels the need. I'm not saying it'll be easy - Jason will surely have a tight grip and be moving at speeds all sorts of fast - but it'll give Jason something else to fight off during the match; ie. hanging onto the one thing in the match that can actually give him a solid chance of victory.
With all that said, I still can't see Jason winning this match. Perhaps it's closer than I made it seem originally, but I don't think it's a scorcher, and I don't think it's worthy of three judges. But alas, it's gone to three anyways, so I'll have to officially tiebreak. And as you already may have guessed, I am sticking with Imhotep. Too powerful, too many options; those things spell victory in my eyes.
Thanks for the arguments though guys. Surely a terrific match.
Vegeta (0) vs Despised (4)
Buffy Summers (Buffyverse) (forfeit) vs Commander Cody (Star Wars) TRUMPED w/ Ba'al (Stargate) *Prepared*
Vegeta (0) vs Despised (5)
Vida Rocca [Mystic Pink Ranger] (Power Rangers: Mystic Force) *Prepared* vs Ba'al (Stargate) (forfeit)
And I think we're all caught up. And while the Emmy Conference might just be settled, we still have to deal with Sir Oscar. Aaand GO!
Team Sea Slug (2) vs The Galactic Mayhem Misfits (4)
Angry Kids with Rocks (1) vs Team Evil Monkey (5)
Location: Dorian Gray's Library (The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen)
Sirius Black (Harry Potter) vs Selene (Underworld)
Location: Outer Heavan (Metal Gear Solid)
Sing (Kung-Fu Hustle) vs Lightning (Big Trouble in Little China) (forfeit)/>
I am going to take Selene, and I think Shurron said he felt the same way. I also believe EF said he would put up little resistance, so I'm not sure there's any sense in awaiting arguments. I guess I'll wait for an agree though./>
Never mind that, I see now that he actually does use TK in one small part, but I still feel that that is a separate power from his control of sand and the water, as he is actually in the sand in water when he's doing that.
Also, saying he's only fought Rick O'Connell had no reference to him actually losing to Ricky, that's a separate entity, in my mind. The fact that he has, on record, zero experience fighting anyone except for a couple of hired guns in his immortal form is a huge mark against him among the rest of the higher ups, except for Pinhead, which I also count against him and why he isn't, in my opinion, as you say, a top three pick(I have voted him over Smith in the past, but I would flip on that in a heartbeat now). The fact that he's never been tested in a fight says a whole lot.
If anyone's being overrated here, it's Imhotep. Talk about paper tigers.
Anyway, who cares what I think.
Well, I still think you're vastly underestimating just how much more impressive all those staff's capabilities would become in a current episode. Take the example EF provided. The axe of the original Black Ranger went from never really showing anything in the way of real destructive power to being able to cause a very nice, deep crack in the earth with just one swing. An attack of that level would be able to affect Imhotep. Not beat him, surely, and I'm not advocating that Ranger over the Mummy at all. But still, that attack could hurt Imhotep. That much energy and strength? Yes. Definitely. It won't beat him, but he'll feel it.
Now you have to realize that the Zeo powers are a direct upgrade over the original powers. They don't do that anymore, with each season now being an all new cast with very little direct comparison between the sets of powers. But in that case, we know that an attack from a standard Zeo Ranger will be even stronger. And then you gotta think about how that staff is, by far, the most potent weapon in that show. So yes, I do see it being upgraded pretty damned massively in a more current show. Wanna know how much? Well, the power staff gets a lot more love in general than Tommy's brachio staff. The same one that he used to pwn a giant monster in Dino Thunder. I personally don't see how the power staff is not at least that potent. Possibly (probably) morseo. And honestly, at this point, after further review, I think I kinda regret the Tommy over Jason call I made earlier. Still close, but yeah, I'd have to say Jason now.
I think that runny-shocky-whatever move he did would absolutey cause Imhotep a severe hurting and that the energy blasts would do the very same. Combine that with speed that's easily superior, and I don't see how Jason loses that match. You don't see how Jason can win? Well right back at ya. Only... opposite.
And I don't see how a very, very, VERY clear combat experience edge holds so little weight with you. When the power levels are so similar (and when I guess Jason's advantage in fighting skill means little to you as well), experience can be a deciding factor. And so can a complete and utter lack of experience against opponents of similar power. Even if Imhotep's power was greater (which I'm not totally convinced it even is), Jason's still has the advantage everywhere else. Raw power isn't always everything. To give Imhotep the win based solely on a raw power advantage, that advantage would have to be very significant. But thing is, if he does have the advantage, it's a slight one. I just don't see where you're getting a huge power advantage for Imhotep from.
I don't get how a power advantage that's, at best, moderate, and at worst, not even an advantage at all, trumps clear advantages in speed, skill, strength and experience. Not to mention a long history of, you know, winning.
Anyways, yes, Selene. As for the inquiry about her speed, she may not have been as fast as Michael yet in this clip (6:45 or so) , but still fast enough for this match. And then she pretty much becomes the most powerful character in the series later on in the movie. Even if she never really showed any improvment after the upgrade, let's face it. A speed upgrade was likely. But yeah, we don't really see. Either way, her proven speed should be good enough.
EDIT: Seriously. He's never been tested in a fight. Not ever. How is that not a factor? And indeed, it damn sure be one for Pinhead as well.
The way she handled Marcus is enough for me, really. Speed or not.
We could probably continue this discussion for days, so I'll try to keep this fairly short. I still really really disagree.
You seem to be trying to argue that the incredibly largescale feats of telekinesis that Imhotep has shown are much less impressive than they've been regarded in the past. Which... yeah. He's without any doubt top three Tk user in my mind. Who else is there? You've got John obviously (who I still feel is overrated due to his one-dimensionality), and you might have Willow, although I'm not sure if she's ever shown as much raw power as Imhotep. But in any case, then you have Immy.
Hell, were you not arguing that John, a far inferior fighter to Imhotep in absolutely every regard with his only small advantage in raw power, was quite easily the most powerful character in a match that featured Glory on the opposition? Somebody with actual skill and loads more experience against a couple of tough little Scooby snacks against a guy who has only known he had any power at all for a few days? See the similarities? John was more of a factor than Glory in spite of the fact that he can get taken in an instant with a single bullet in the back, but immortal Imhotep, generally immune to all physical damage from what we've seen and much more experienced than John, is going to have so much trouble with the Gold Ranger who isn't nearly as incredible as we've been led to believe? Clearly combat experience wasn't a big deal then. We were dealing with brute force.
I don't mean to belabour the point, but I think Imhotep is now being vastly underrated. He's had feats at least on the same radar as John lifting the city, and he's also shown that his telekinesis is also pretty nicely refined given how he carved his face into the rushing water and oncoming sandstorm. I'm honestly surprised we're even having this discussion given what I thought was your opinion of Imhotep in the past.
Fighting experience does matter, and I'm not arguing that it doesn't. But in this specific case, its impact is going to be hugely reduced. And do you know why it's going to be reduced? Because saying that "the power levels are so similar" is just blatantly and utterly false. To the utmost degree. Imhotep has an incredibly clear, and in my mind match-deciding, advantage in raw power. He's weaker in physical combat and experience, but in a match like this, raw power generally takes the cake because it can reduce the impact of those other tangible qualities. It can do that by, I dunno, tossing Jason around like a ragdoll or just taking the staff (which again, is without question a possibility).
Also: I'm not arguing that Imhotep is immune to all physical damage like, ever. Of course not. But at the same time, he's never actually been shown to be phased by it in his physical form. Didn't you make a similar argument for Battlebeast in Comics? Just as you argue that Imhotep doesn't have much experience actually fighting, I can argue that he doesn't have any experience being hurt. Except by a cat. Does Jason have a cat?
But I think, with all that said, I can get to the crux of the matter. And that is that there isn't a Ranger that was drafted who I would vote over Imhotep. Not Zhane. Not Nick. Not Koragg. Not Tommy. Not Chip or Vida surely. And not Jason. Conner most likely, but he would still have to extend the match in order to power up to the level necessary to defeat Imhotep. That's the way it goes. Imhotep's lack of fighting experience is a fault, but it's pretty much his only one. He's one of the best characters in the draft, and in my mind, the five slot was a good spot to grab him in. He's very good.
Looks like I failed in keeping it short. Oh well.
Never mind that, I see now that he actually does use TK in one small part, but I still feel that that is a separate power from his control of sand and the water, as he is actually in the sand in water when he's doing that.
There really isn't anything at all that should make you think that. Absolutely nothing. He's shown his Tk tossing those guards around, and he's shown i