PT The Mystery of Sifo Dyas… Canonized…

What? There is no conflict just because the intention is that the audience actually has to pay attention and think a little, rather than sitting there drooling, hoping the movie explains it to them word for word...

If you want to make the argument that it wasn't Dooku, just because it isn't explained with 100% certainty, only maybe in a high 90%, than that's obviously your prerogative. However, it's my opinion that you are taking that stance out of some preconceived ideal that is influenced by something other than what is seen in the show and the movie. So basically you are ignoring certain things to fit your own opinion.

 

We know for certain that Dooku killed Sifo-Dyas with the intention of stealing his identity. What we don't know for certain is whether Sifo-Dyas himself already placed the order for the clone army prior to this point.

We know that Dooku was able to involve himself in the army production using his identity of Tyranus, so clearly at some point he was able to discard his Sifo-Dyas identity. Perhaps the only reason he needed to "become" Sifo-Dyas was so he could say, "You should now defer to Tyranus for all future instructions regarding the army."

It's also worth noting that the final episode of TCW showed Sidious using Sith alchemy to (apparently) astrally project an image of himself as Sifo-Dyas. Maybe this was how Dooku (or even Sidious) fooled the Kaminoans.

 

It is impossible that Sifo Dyas placed the order himself. In AOTC when Obi Wan reports to the Jedi Council, he says:

The part that is important is when Obi Wan says that the cloners told him that the order was placed "almost ten years ago". This would mean the order was actually placed after the events of TPM. With Sifo Dyas's death being tied to Valorum's administration in the timeline, then that means Sifo Dyas was killed prior to, or at the very best, the beginning of the events of TPM. So I think it's pretty safe to say that between the movie and TCW, there is no way Sifo Dyas himself placed the order.

 

He uses the exact same phrase to describe the timing of Sifo-Dyas' death.

 

Your point? There is a difference between trying to remember something that happened 10 years ago, and something that you were just told.

 

We only know that Sifo-Dyas was sent to Oba Diah during Valorum's administration. As far as I'm aware, we don't know when he left.

 

From what mikeximus posted we can get an idea:

This says quite clearly that as soon as Sifo-Dyas arrived on Oba Diah, he was told to go elsewhere.
Give the quick travel times in SW, it would be at most a day or so between Valorum telling Sifo-Dyas to go and Sifo-Dyas getting orders from the JC to go to Felucia.

So Sifo-Dyas tried to leave and got killed while Valorum was still in power. This puts his death before the clone order as that was some time after Valorum's time.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

I would say there is a difference between level of involvement and locking everything down to the finest detail.

I am reminded of a point Filoni made when they had the story where Boba Fett tries to kill Mace. Mace goes into his quarters and see's Jango's helmet from AOTC which then explodes.

DF said to Lucas "Isn't that the helmet Boba used? It has the same dent in it and everything."

Lucas' reply was basically "Don't take everything so seriously. He used another helmet."

So in DF's mind he is still like us as fans who want to lock everything down to the last decimal point while the actual creator is saying nothing is perfect don't lock everything down so much that it paints you into a corner and stops you from doing something. The whole basis of Lucas' Star Wars is that things are constantly in motion and changing. Leave yourself room to change things and even if you haven't you can still do them.

 

Samuel Vimes already stole my thunder... but he is spot on. Valorum sent Sifo-Dyas to Oba Diah, and in the cartoon it is pointed out that the negotiations were postponed after he arrived, as Sifo-Dyas was then ordered to Felucia. It was when Sifo-Dyas and Silman were leaving Oba Diah that they were shot down and Sifo Dyas was killed. From the Episode when Yoda is interviewing Valorum on what he knew about Sifo Dyas:

"I do remember that the talks were postponed not long after our delegates arrived on Oba Diah, something about a flare-up of activity on Felucia."

So everything involving Sifo-Dyas is tied to Valorum's administration so it is all before the events of TPM, or as I said at best it happens at the very beginning of TPM.

I have no problems with things changing, the side conversation was more about Lucas's level of involvement in the actual story itself and when that story changed from what the movie AOTC and certain quotes from Lucas were made.

 

Hm, I wasn't aware of that line in the episode. That does complicate things.

I really wish Filoni elaborated on the episode more in that Q&A that was posted.

 

I don't think it complicates anything, I rather think it clears it up. As I have said earlier I was always under the impression (from the movies) that everything happened after TPM, so I was always confused as to how quickly Sidious was able to turn Dooku.

With the new stroyline it seems to clear that up that Dooku was turned before TPM, and he ordered the clones, removed Kamino from the Archives and killed Sifo-Dyas all before TPM.

The problem is having to make that leap past what Lucas has said in the past about Maul and realize the "new" story is that Sidious had someone waiting in the wings just in case Maul was a failure...

 

Well, I mean it complicates things because the order for the clones was apparently placed "almost ten years" before AOTC. That means the order had to have been placed after the events of TPM.

 

I'm curious as to how Sifo-Dyas's cremation on Felucia was arranged.

Dooku claimed that Sifo-Dyas helped him, in The Lost One - and we know from the Tup & Fives arc that Dooku is still in contact with the Kaminoans as "Tyranus". Maybe there was a lot of activity before the "order" was actually placed? With Sifo-Dyas visiting Kamino (possibly with Dooku) - then being sent to Oba Diah on Valorum's instructions - then Dooku contacting the Kaminoans to finally place the order, under Sifo-Dyas's name?

 

Well he still could have placed the order itself "almost ten years ago", but the events surrounding the actual death of Sifo Dyas happened before that because Sidious and Dooku were anticipating setting up the order in the future so they saw their chance to get rid of Sifo-Dyas using the Pykes. It was the oppurtunity that presented itself that they took advantage of, even though they weren't going to actually place the order for some time down the road, and even then that would only be months, not years down the road.

I know in my previous post I included the ordering as having happened before TPM, but that was a mistake on my part. I got a bit ahead of myself when I was typing. I don't think Sifo-Dyas was murdered then a week later the clones were ordered. The murder was just setting up what the Sith were planning to do at a later date.

 

It might have taken a while for the order to be placed - but it's Sifo Dyas that apparently insisted on the inhibitor chip. Dooku in disguise?

 

Well, that would all work out very nicely, if it weren't for the fact that the Jedi seemed to be unsure of the timing of Sifo-Dyas's death. There has to be some way for the Jedi to plausibly believe that Sifo-Dyas may have died sometime after the order was placed, as opposed to before.

 

Especially since it's not until The Lost One that the Jedi finally conclude "Dooku created the army". And decide to keep this secret from the Senate and even the Chancellor, to avoid shaking people's confidence.

 

Why do the Jedi have to believe that Sifo-Dyas dies after? They know that there is something wrong with the timing of the order and his death. While Obi Wan can't pinpoint the exact timing of Sifo-Dyas's death, it is obvious they have some kind of an idea as he points out to Yoda and Mace that he was under the impression that Sifo-Dyas dies before the order was placed.

So it is established in the movie that the Jedi are aware of the possibility that Sifo-Dyas didn't actually place the order. In fact Mace makes a distinct point to say that "whoever" placed the order didn't have the permission of the council. By him saying "whoever", shows us that he is unsure of who ordered the clones and isn't prepared to place it on Sifo-Dyas.

 

Question is - did they conclude after Yoda's visit to Kamino in AOTC that it was impossible for Sifo-Dyas to have been in any way involved?

And thus, that whenever Kaminoans make a statement about Sifo-Dyas, they're either in error or lying?

 

I think they concluded that he didn't do it from the moment that Obi Wan made his report to Mace and Yoda. I think that Obi Wan isn't 100% sure as to when Sifo-Dyas dies and thus why he is only under the impression that he died before that. We have to remember that at that time Obi Wan was only a Padawan, and I'm sure he wasn't all that involved with the comings and goings of other Jedi. He may have heard a Jedi was killed and thus why he is only under the "impression". Mace seems more sure of himself when he says "whoever".

However, in the TCW episode, it seems the Jedi are very sure of when Sifo Dyas dies, as they have the report of him being killed on Felucia. They just never get a body or his lightsaber. So they know he was killed on Felucia and when, as Dooku presents Sifo-Dyas's body to the Felucians right after the Pykes retrieve the body from the wreckage.

So I am pretty sure that the Jedi know that there was no way Sifo Dyas could have ordered the army, they just have no choice but to use it anyway...

 

They're unsure, but I was under the impression that they were willing to believe that Sifo-Dyas did order it. Obi-Wan tells the Kaminoans Sifo-Dyas died "almost ten years ago." Then he tells Mace and Yoda that he was under the impression Sifo-Dyas died "before that."

Now, you could argue, as some have, that Sifo-Dyas died "almost ten years ago" and the clone army was ordered "almost ten years ago," and that the former simply happened a little bit before the latter. But that would be an incredibly weird--and unclear--way to phrase everything.

I really wish we had more insight into why it was written that way, what Lucas really intended, and how everything is now supposed to have played out. It seems like the more explanation we get, the more new questions are raised.

At some point, you really have to wonder whether all this mystery and confusion is maybe intentional. It's like an Attack of the Clones meta-plot unto itself.

 

Or simply Obi Wan was struggling with trying to remember when Sifo-Dyas really did die. He was only a padawan at the time of his death, and I'm sure Sifo Dyas's death wasn't something that was talked about. Not because it was taboo, but, because there was no reason to talk about it until that point.

 

Prior to the episode, the AOTC novelization hinted strongly that Sifo-Dyas placing the order was a possibility in Mace & Yoda's minds.

Mace: "A clone army," Mace remarked, alone with Yoda once again, the hologram gone. "Why would Sifo-Dyas-"
Yoda: "When placed, this order was, may provide insight," Yoda said, and Mace nodded. If the timing of the order was correct, then Sifo-Dyas must have placed it right before he died.

But that's retconnable.

 

Yeah it seems it has been, because I can't see how that is the case now with TCW. In the scene in the Lost One where Jocasta Nu briefs the Jedi on Sifo Dyas's death it's established that the Jedi have always been aware of the time of Sifo-Dyas's death since they believe he was killed on Felucia and they were the ones that sent him there.

It's little trinkets like you just pointed out that the Novelizations are only canon unless there is something that contradicts other canon.... Thanks Disney...

 

If two (*) things happened "almost ten years ago" in the same general timeframe, either one of them could have happened first.

* actually three

Or they had already manipulated Sifo-Dyas into placing the order and thus needed to kill him off.