PT The Mystery of Sifo Dyas… Canonized…

Well if we look at the shooting script, you had no Sifo-Dyas, it was Sido-Dyas, a fake Jedi and Obi-wan had never heard of him and Mace and Yoda confirmed that there was no such Jedi. So here the Jedi clearly knew that the clone army had been ordered under a false name and they suspected someone in the senate, perhaps someone that was after to start a war.
During pick ups, Lucas changed it to Sifo-Dyas, a real but dead Jedi. But he also had these lines in the script.
Obi-Wan saying that the clone army was ordered almost ten years ago but he was under the impression that he was killed BEFORE that. And Mace using the phrase "Whoever" when talking about the person that ordered the army. You have Jango not knowing Sifo-Dyas name and instead he was hired by a Tyrannus, whom we later learn is Dooku. We know that the Jedi archive have been tampered with and Kamino removed and only a Jedi could have done this, obviously this is connected with the clone army.

Is Lucas telling the audience that, Yes it really was Sifo-Dyas that ordered the clone army? I don't think so. Why would he deliberately have lines that contradict what he is trying to establish?
Is Lucas telling the audience that there are fishy things with the clone army and it was probably ordered under a false name? Yes. What Jango says, what Obi-wan says and the rest of the info all points to one likely conclusion. Dooku posed as Sifo-Dyas and ordered the army, he hired Jango and deleted the Kamino file. Fits all available evidence.

Lucas did intend to revisit the Sifo-Dyas plot in RotS but that didn't happen.
Then some EU muddied the waters by indicating that Sifo-Dyas might actually have had something to do with this but this more recent EU says the complete opposite. Sifo-Dyas was killed before or during TPM, so that Dooku could assume his name, and the clone army was ordered some time after TPM.
So I think the message is now quite clear, Sifo-Dyas was killed so that Dooku could pose as him and this happened before the clone army was ordered. So Sifo-Dyas had nothing at all to do with it. AotC showed that the Jedi seemed aware that Sifo-Dyas probably did not order the army.

@Arawn_Fenn

The timeline in this new EU doesn't support this. Sifo-Dyas went to Oba Diah for Valorum, so this occurred before or during the early parts of TPM. As soon as he got there, the Jedi ordered him to Felucia but before he could leave, he was killed. So his death was either before or during TPM, which means ten or more years ago. The clone army was ordered LESS than ten years ago.

Also, if the Clone army was ordered when Palpatine was chancellor, that makes sense as he could direct funds to pay for it etc. If the order was placed Before Palpatine was chancellor, then things makes less sense. Payment is now harder and much of the clone army hinges on Palpatine being chancellor. Sure he had plans to become that but it is a bit risky to order the clone army before he had become chancellor and much better to wait until he has that position.

So going both from this and the dates used, vague they might be, the clone army was ordered after Valorum's time. Since Sifo-Dyas was killed during Valorum's time, he didn't do it.
And it also would be a lot easier and less risky to kill a Jedi and use his name for the order than trying to con him into doing it. He could talk or not do it.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

I'm not sure that's true. The army was for the Republic, but it wasn't payed with its funds (that would be very careless of Palpatine). The implication would be that Dooku, a wealthy Count, paid back then (under the Sifo-Dyas or Tyranus alias).

 

First, as long as Dooku is a member of the Jedi order, he has no money. Only after he leaves would he have that and Dooku must still be a Jedi to delete the Kamino file.
Second, the army is said to have been ordered at the request of the senate. If money can be traced coming from the senate, not directly linked to Palpatine, that actually makes the army slightly less fishy than if they money goes somewhere else entirely. Esp if the money can be traced to Dooku.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

He has no money with him, but once he's influenced by Sidious, he wouldn't care about the Jedi vows. I doubt he wouldn't be able to access his inheritance in secret.

But the senate didn't request an army, otherwise 'everyone' would have known and there would be no need to give emergency powers and announce the creation of an army. It was said, yes, but it's another lie just like the rest.

Who said it could? Dooku was the source of the money, but nobody except Sidious would know that.

 

Once again, you are sticking all your eggs into one basket, well one line of dialogue, and all the other evidence works against your position. As I said earlier, more than likely Obi Wan wasn't clear on when Sifo Dyas was actually killed and mis-spoke or remembred wrongly. Where as with the comment about the clones being ordered almost ten years ago, is something he was just told, and would be fresh in his mind. After taking the tour of the cloning facility, and able to think on it, he realizes that he was wrng, and changes his accounting of Sifo-Dyas's death when he talks to Mace and Yoda, but, even then he isn't 100% sure, as indicated in the tone of his voice.

It has been established that there is no way that Sifo Dyas ordered the clones, he was killed before the clones were ordered...

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Alexrd and Samuel Vimes

Where the money came from is probably such an un-important issue, but it is obviously not covered in the movie or TCW.

Some of Count Dooku's back story is that he left the Jedi Order and reclaimed his birth right where he was rich. So there is a possibility that Dooku erases Kamino, leaves the Jedi Order, reclaims his birth right, and then uses it to order the clones.

Or another possibility, Palpatine may have misappropriated funds from the Republic, laundered it through various shady organizations, then gave it to Dooku, in cash, so it couldn't be traced.

Or a third possibility, and my favorite because it adds another layer to the Sith, is that the Sith over a thousand years have acquired endless riches. Palpatine used some of those riches, again passed them through various shady organizations so there was no way to track it, then had Dooku pick it up on the other side as cash...

The cloners aren't going to say no to any payment, they don't care!

 

That is an assumption that he would be able to do this while still an active Jedi.

But if the Jedi can see that the money is coming from the senate somehow, that would put them somewhat at ease. They serve the senate and if someone or several someones in the senate is behind this army, then it makes it a bit less fishy.

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That would depend on how Dooku paid for it, if it was in cash then probably very hard to trace. If it came from his personal account then a lot easier to trace.

In any event, my point was that it makes much better sense for Palpatine to order this army once he has been elected to chancellor and not before.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Why not? He was turned while still an active Jedi.

On the contrary. If they knew that someone in the senate had ordered and financed an army in secret, it would put them nervous precisely because such a serious crime happened under their noses.

He used two alias to hide his identity and he would directly transfer funds from his real one?

I don't see how. It would only bring more suspicion on him.

 

The Clones were ordered after Palpatine became Chancellor, that is a fact now. Palpatine was elected Chancellor before the very end of TPM, and the clones were ordered after TPM.

 

My mistake, I misread his last comment. Yes, Palpatine ordered the army after TPM. But his position is irrelevant to order the army.

 

This, pretty much, sums it up. It is pretty clear what Lucas was aiming for because dialogue serves a purpose. If we were to believe that Sifo-Dyas really did order the clone army, as opposed to something fishy going on - ie someone was pretending to be Sifo-Dyas, then the dialogue would not lead us to believe otherwise. Nor would we be expected to understand that the Jedi are similarly unconvinced by the idea.

So, what can we learn just from the films themselves. Well, despite Lucas claiming that the issue would be resolved in ROTS it wasn't. At least not directly, What we can tell from the films themselves (ROTS, Order 66) is that the clone army was a tool of the Sith; it follows that it was almost certainly ordered by the Sith (their progenitor, Jango Fett, was hired by Tyrranus.... Dooku).

The problem with that is that the Jedi....never figured this out through the years of the clone wars. Perhaps they should have asked the younglings (as they did to find Kamino). The stroyline in TCW - specifically linking Dooku with Tyrranus, just makes the Jedi seem dumber and dumber. Perhaps I am meant to believe that - though the level of stupidity I am required to believe in here takes me well beyond a level of suspension of disbelief I can reasonably cope with.

'The mystery of Sifo-Dyas' really comes down to this. You can't write a convoluted entrapment story on the fly, and Lucas writes his stories on the fly. 'Wheels within wheels' requires that the author take the time to work out the whole mechanism, then the magic trick works. if you just throw a whole load of cogs together and seal the box...there is no 'magic', just a rattly box.

 

Not really as the Clone army is for the republic and is totally obedient. The person with the highest authority over them would be the chancellor of said republic. So it makes all the sense that Palaptine would order this army when he occupies this position and not before. If Palpatine would somehow not be able to become chancellor, he has just given the Republic a big army and why he want that?

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Except that Valorum was the one who wanted it, because he was convinced by Sifo-Dyas that they needed the army to fight off the impending war that was coming. Valorum even said that he signed off on it. He just wants the army because he's found the perfect out for killing the Jedi Order and helping his own cause.

Or they did suspect something was up, but were unable to do anything about it until they could gather proof. Simply not fighting was not an option.

 

He didn't need to give the army to the Republic if he didn't get elected. Besides, it seems that his Sith persona was the one who the clones were 'hacked' to be loyal to.

Where is that stated?

 

Wait, Valorum wants the army because Sifo-Dyas convinced him and Valorum wants to use it to kill the Jedi?
Where are you getting all this stuff from?

Alexrd

The Kamino people thinks the army is for the republic and they will eventually contact the Senate/Jedi/Republic when the army is ready.
From what the films and even this EU tells us, Palpatine's plan was this, create a crisis and get elected chancellor. Then he arranges for the clone army to be ordered and possibly uses various diverted funds, run through various phony accounts to pay for it. Once the army is ready, Dooku, who has built his own droid army, makes some threat and the war starts.

Why would Palpatine order the clone army before he had become chancellor? He doesn't need to rush things and ordering it before serves no purpose.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Yes, but if he hadn't become chancellor, he could give them different instructions. My point was that his status as chancellor is not essential for him to order the army.

 

But again why would Palpatine rush things? Why order the clone army before he is chancellor if there is no need to? The clone army requires that he is chancellor, as he then has control over it. Even if he could cancel the order, again it seems wasteful form him to rush this. And on the off chance that the Kamino people contracts the senate for confirmation, as chancellor he has more opportunity to deal with that. And he has more money to draw upon.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Samuel Vimes and Alexrd

I tend to agree with Samuel (but not on everything) that Palpatine would wait til after he was chancellor to order the clones. He obviously has it planned out where it's one step at a time, and he doesn't get ahead of himself.

 

No. Sifo-Dyas told Valorum about his concerns regarding the coming darkness. Valorum sent him out to Obi Dah to handle the Pykes, but he was also aware that the Clone Army was something he was thinking about and didn't object to it.

It takes ten years to cultivate and grow the army. He needs it to go at a particular date. Sifo-Dyas claimed that it was for the Republic. Any funds used to pay for it came from Dooku's family, or from his own resources.

 

Almost ten years ago. Remember, this is the exact phrase used to describe the timing of Sifo-Dyas' death. If you insist that it must mean LESS than ten years ago in the case of the clone order, then by the same token it must also mean LESS than ten years ago in the case of Sifo's death.

That's why you use Darth Plagueis style methods as opposed to an obvious con or anything he would be compelled to "talk" about. What's he expected to say - Hego Damask said some troubling things to me at a party?

Speaking of risk, what's the point of using a Jedi's name for the order if the timeline doesn't permit said Jedi to be alive when the order was placed? Are these guys supposed to be master schemers or utter morons?

 

Exactly. We have a winner here!

I enjoy reading this whole Sifo-Dyas discussion over here and do agree that this whole thing has become quite a mess because of all the revisions by Lucas and the Clone Wars. I think we can all agree on the history of the mystery:

• “Someone impersonating a non-existing Jedi”
  shooting script (2nd draft): Sido-Dyas was a Jedi that didn’t exist and was clearly a reference to Sidious
  
  The Jedi using an army created by an imposter didn’t really make sense, so George changed his mind during pick-ups.

• “Someone impersonating an existing Jedi”
  3rd draft: Sifo-Dyas is an existing Jedi, but it is heavily implied that he died before the clone-order. More so, some of the cut dialogue points in the direction of Dooku impersonating Sifo-Dyas (a cut line says “Sifo-Dyas handpicked Jango himself” vs. “I was recruited by a man called Tyranus).
  
  And here, I clearly agree with the post by Arawn_Fenn. What’s the point of someone impersonating Sifo-Dyas after his death to create the army when it’s very clear that Sifo-Dyas couldn’t have done it. It brings us back to the problems in the shooting script: the Jedi trust an army created by an imposter.

So, the only way to make this whole army appear semi-legit is that it really was Sifo-Dyas who placed the order (I’m sure the Kaminoans would have a contract, some footage, security recordings of the actual meeting that the Jedi can investigate… why wouldn’t they ). A mastermind as Sidious must know the importance of influencing/encouraging Sifo-Dyas to place the order. And that’s all Sifo-Dyas was needed for: the initial clone order. After that, Dooku could deal with him.

While the clone wars episode did make the whole backstory and timeline much more complicated, there are some points that are interesting:

• It’s made very clear that Sifo-Dyas really wanted an army and because of his ideas being ‘too extreme’ he was kicked out of the Jedi Council. So, it’s certainly a big thing on Sifo-Dyas mind that can easily be triggered by someone like Sidious, certainly after he wasn’t really appreciated by his fellow Jedi.

• The Jedi really seem quite convinced that it really was Sifo-Dyas who ordered the clones, that he “hid the army” from them. While there was initial doubt in AOTC, it seems to have disappeared during the clone wars.

• Valorum’s aid says “Someone [Tyranus] who wanted to be Sifo-Dyas”. IMO, it clearly implies that Sifo-Dyas has done something that Dooku is quite envious of. Why else would Dooku ‘want to be Sifo-Dyas’ if he [Sifo-Dyas] hadn’t done of anything of importance yet?

 

The answer is simple, the jedi only find out about mismatching dates, Jango being hired by a Tryannus etc because Obi-Wan went to Kamino and talked to the Kamino people.
IF the clone army had been "found" by the Kamino people contacting the senate/Palpatine this info would not have reached them. And if the war broke out soon after, they might not have had time to dig deeper into this and would have no solid info about the odd things around the clone army.

Two things, Lucas still included a line from Obi-Wan about Sifo-Dyas being dead when the army was ordered. Why have this line IN the film if not to imply that Sifo-Dyas didn't order the army. If Lucas really wanted to tell the audience that Sifo-Dyas really did order the army then he did a crappy job of it. Omit Obi-Wan saying that Sifo-Dyas was killed before the order and instead have him only ask if the Council approved of this. Mace and Yoda say no but they admit that it is possible that Sifo-Dyas did this but Sifo-Dyas was killed some years ago so they can't ask him.

Second, as I said above, the Jedi only find out about all of these fishy things because they go to Kamino. A planet that someone, most likely Dooku, erased from their archives. meaning someone tried to keep the Jedi AWAY from there. If Obi-Wan never went to Kamino then the Jedi would never have learned about Jango being hired by some Tyrannus and that he also have never heard the name of the Jedi that supposedly ordered the army. Obi-Wan also got a lot of info from the Kamino people, including the date when this army was ordered. And as far as Obi-Wan knows, that was after Sifo-Dyas death. Had he not gone there and been able to talk to the Kamino people, the Jedi would not known any of that at the end of AotC and they might never have learned about it.

First, the order of the clone army is at best illegal and at worst treason, it would be a bit out of character for a jedi to act this way. Also, going only from the films, the audience knows nothing about Sifo-Dyas other than he is a dead Jedi master. The clone army is a big plot point in the PT and an important key in Palpatine's plan. Having this important army be ordered by some random Jedi for totally unexplained reasons isn't very good storytelling. And it leaves a lot of unanswered questions, why did he do this, how did he pay for it, how did Palpatine hear about it etc.
Had the matter been dealt with in RotS, which Lucas said he would, then it might have worked. But we get nothing and are left with what AotC told us. And that film implies that Sifo-Dyas didn't do it, both from what Obi-Wan says but also from Jango not knowing Sifo-Dyas name and being hired by Dooku etc.

But in TCW the Jedi learn that Dooku is this Tyrannus and thus they would know that Sifo-Dyas didn't place the order. Yet that was apparently not a concern in RotS.

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Or it could simply be that Dooku needed to become Sifo-Dyas so he could pose as him and order the army.
Sifo-Dyas had been removed from the council because of him arguing that the republic should get an army. Did Dooku know about this? Most likely. Then Sifo-Dyas was sent by Valorum to Oba Diah on a secret mission to negotiate some sort of deal. As soon as he got there, he was ordered elsewhere but the Pykes killed him on orders from the Sith.
If Sifo-Dyas had spoken of the need for an army, then he is a useful patsy. By placing the army in his name, it makes it seem less fishy. So the Sith saw an opportunity to kill Sifo-Dyas when he was on a mission not even the council knew about and they took it. Some time later, they placed the order in his name and removed all info about Kamino from the Jedi archives.

@Arawn_Fenn

Which date do you think Obi-Wan knows best, the death of a jedi master some ten years ago or the date for the order of the clone army that he just saw? If this EU can be counted along with the film, it gives more detail to the date when Sifo-Dyas died. And since this new EU places Sifo-Dyas death as happening while Valorum was chancellor, that makes it ten or more years ago.
As I said in earlier posts, it makes little sense for Palpatine to order the clone army before he had become chancellor so this means that the order was placed after TPM. And this fits with what AotC says. And it fits with Obi-Wan saying that Sifo-Dyas being killed before the army was ordered.

See above, the date mismatch only becomes known to the Jedi because they go to Kamino, otherwise all they would know is that Sifo-Dyas, whom they knew suggested an army, had placed an order for a clone army some years ago. If war broke out soon after and with the Jedi not knowing anything about Jango or Tyrannus, the Jedi have much less reason to smell a rat.

In an other thread, I argued against some people that had Palpatine plan each and every event in AotC, that the Jedi was supposed to go to Kamino and then to Geonosis etc. As I recall, you also didn't think Palpatine had such an overcomplicated plan in mind. So if the Sith's plan was that the Jedi would NOT find Kamino and learn all the stuff they learned there, then their plan makes a lot more sense and the problems you mention go away.

Lastly, why wasn't Jango told about Sifo-Dyas? Didn't the Sith think that it might be a good idea for Jango to know the name of the guy who ordered the clone army he is the template for?
Wouldn't he have needed to mention it when he came to Kamino?

To me, what this and the large number of other threads about Sifo-Dyas et al, shows, is that this plot point wasn't explained very well within the films. And the various EU seem to contradict each other but given the what I've read here about the most recent EU is that Sifo-Dyas did NOT order the army. He was killed and Dooku posed as him. This fits with what the films tells us and mostly the question is why the Jedi don't smell a rat.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

The contradiction between "Labyrinth Of Evil" and "Darth Plagueis", both of whom were written by Luceno, versus "The Clone Wars" season six only exists because the latter was written with regards towards Dooku's role in the matter. And since the books from before are no longer in continuity, what is in TCW is what stands.

 

I wouldn't think procuring an army for the Republic qualifies as treason. And in Qui-Gon we already have precedent for a Jedi disobeying the Council and kind of doing his own thing. To assume that Sifo was another one of these types is not really an outlandish idea.

 

Then obviously you need to re-watch AOTC, because procuring an army for the Republic is up to the Senate, not the Chancellor, not the Jedi, not anyone else.

 

The point is that it's a pro-Republic act, not something against the Republic. And the army wasn't procured by the Senate, yet the Republic still ended up needing it.