PT The Mystery of Sifo Dyas… Canonized…

Just because the Senate was backed into a corner so that they needed the army, doesn't mean the way the army was obtained was legal. The act could be considered treasonous because it circumvents an important step in the democratic process of the republic and could be considered an attempt to undermine the process.

 

The Clone Army was not created by consent of the Senate, that is true. But its use was legal. This is why Palpatine was able to use Obi-wan's capture to engineer his gaining Emergency Powers, where he could bypass the Senate and thus make it legal.

 

I hated this plotline because it was hinted at as if it was some grand story thread, but then ROTS completely ignores it.

 

I don't think we heard the last of this part of the plot (some would say ). After reading this entire thread, mainly because Sifo Dyas mystery is so interesting and unexplained in some areas, I've thought of something else. I always took Obi-Wan's mention of Sifo Dyas as not only some deception that was going on, but another "from another point of view" statement. It may be also possible that Sifo Dyas's death was faked, as he was to be one of the leaders of this "new government" that Dooku wanted. So his death is faked so he can be a leader in this government, and to have no involvement in the Jedi Order which is hard to just walk away. At this time Dooku gets jealous, leaves the order and starts to work with Palpatine after he finds out or was approached about it. So around the TPM timeline this all takes place. Then instead of having Sifo Dyas be one of the leaders, he is killed by Dooku out of jealousy and starts the order disguised as him. Then the actual order is placed after TPM. I know this doesn't answer all the questions, but Sifo Dyas having "2 deaths" makes up for some time lapse in the plot.

 

He was?

Dooku deleted Kamino from the Archives' maps, so he was still a Jedi when he started working for Sidious.

 

Basically, it's unnecessarily convoluted, conspiracy-nut nonsense gilded in the thin veneer of "complexity."

 

It is just, to put it simply, poorly thought-out. Its a 'complex' plot that has no real deeply considered structure so that in order to make it work everybody has to be dumbed down at specific points. There is no nice way of saying this, it is just poor narrative structure, nowhere near enough thought has been put into the mechanism of Palpatine's 'plot' for it to be a realistic and believable story-line. The more I look at it the more it appears an object lesson in how not to construct a plot.

 

It is significant that early in "The Lost One" the Jedi believe Sifo-Dyas to have ordered the clone army, just as they did in Labyrinth of Evil, but this time even without any reference to additional investigation on Yoda's part. This contradicts the assumption that the Jedi, going forward from AOTC, had assumed that the army was ordered by some impostor, and it means that the TCW timeframe still permits Sifo to have placed the initial order. What the Jedi discover about Sifo's death - that he died in Oba Diah's system instead of on Felucia as originally reported - does not change this fact.

 

I don't like the Jedi finding out Dooku is Tyranus. Why didn't they start investigating the Clones a little more with this discovery?

 

I could be wrong here, but I SWEAR I remember the old in canon storyline had Dooku leaving the Jedi Order after Qui-Gon's death, as he became disillusioned with them because of it, and that he wasn't recruited by Sidious til after he already left. If so, then the timeline put forth by TCW doesn't line up with this scenerio of Dooku's apprenticiship.

 

Your memory is correct. I'm personally glad they changed that.

 

I think TCW version isn't good as it creates a new plot hole of the the Jedi knowing the clones were ordered by the Sith and also knowing the clones have mind control chips would unravel Sids, plans. Even the Jedi could put those two together. This is the problem with TCW, it attempts to fix non-issues and ends up creating new plot holes and other problems.

 

Even in TCW - the Jedi don't know that the chips are supposed to be "mind control devices" - the Kaminoans managed to cover that bit up.

Newcanon sources on Sifo-Dyas, Dooku, and the clone army's ordering:

Ultimate Star Wars (p69):

Timeline
Manipulated by Count Dooku, Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas commissions the Kaminoan cloners to grow an army for the Republic.

The Databank:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/sifo-dyas

SIFO-DYAS

A member of the Jedi Council before the blockade of Naboo, Sifo-Dyas believed the galaxy would soon be plunged into war, and agitated for the Republic to create an army for its defense. After the other Jedi rejected his ideas and removed him from the council, he secretly contacted the Kaminoans and commissioned them to create a clone army, which he led the Kaminoans to believe was for the Republic. In doing so, Sifo-Dyas became an unwitting pawn of the Sith, who took over the project and hired the Pyke Syndicate to murder Sifo-Dyas on Oba Diah’s moon. A decade after Sifo-Dyas’ death, Obi-Wan Kenobi discovered the army he had commissioned, now ready for duty. The Jedi took control of this army on Supreme Chancellor Palpatine’s orders, setting the Clone Wars in motion.

Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need To Know

(p20)

Q: Who asks for this huge army to be made?
A: Sifo-Dyas, a Jedi High Council member who senses a looming galactic war and tasks the Kaminoans to create a clone army for the Republic. When the Sith learn of this, they murder Sifo-Dyas so they can control the clones' creation.

(p58)

Dooku completes his fall from the light side when he eliminates his friend, Sifo-Dyas, under orders from Darth Sidious. With Sifo-Dyas gone, the Sith take control of the Jedi's clone army.

 

They Jedi knew Dooku was Tyranus in RotS.

That's explained at the very end of the episode.

 

Where did they say they knew Dooku was Tyranus?

What did they say exactly?

 

AOTC still imply that Dooku posed as Sifo-Dyas, to order the clone army which is much more succinct and makes more sense than this needlessly complex roundabout explanation that TCW gives. The film explanation was enough.

 

I don't think the Sifo-Dyas story arc was badly handled. Lucas hinted it in "Attack of the Clones" and revealed it in detail in one of the EU novels.

This is why I think Disney's declaration that the entire EU material was no longer canon such a big mistake. They should have limited this declaration to the post-"Return of the Jedi" novels. One of the EU novels set in the Republic Era made it clear that Sifo-Dyas had originally ordered the clone army. I don't know what Disney and Lucasfilm will do with this storyline. All Disney and Lucasfilm had to do was leave the pre-"Jedi" stories alone and add their own canon to the saga. This is ridiculous.

 

Agreed. This is complete unnecessary nonsense.

 

When they acknowledged him as a Sith Lord. Lucas also refers to him that way in the script precisely because of that.

Just watch the very end of the episode.

Lucas didn't reveal anything in the EU novels. He did it in the movie and this story arc.

 

But they didn't say Tyranus was Darth Tyranus, did they?

I found their explanation to be absurd and absolutely non-sense.

 

Not by name, but he's identified as such.

What explanation?

 

Didn't they already know he was one after Ani and Obi fighting him on Geonosis?

That it's too late to stop it.

 

Basically, they canonised "Sifo Dyas ordered the clone army" in the sources quoted above - one of the few things that made the jump from the Legendsverse to the newcanonverse.

 

There is nothing in ROTS that explicitly points to the Jedi knowing Tyranus and Dooku are one in the same. However, what is clear is that at some point between the movies the Jedi learn that Dooku is a Sith Lord. There are a couple indications to this. First when Dooku appears at the beginning of ROTS and Palpatine tells Obi Wan and Anakin that they need to get help because Dooku was a Sith Lord, there is no indication that they are surprised by what Palpatine said. Further into the movie Obi Wan tells Padme that after the death of Dooku, Anakin became Sidious's apprentice.

From the movies alone, do the Jedi know Dooku is Tyranus? We don't know for sure as it isn't explicitly laid out, but one might assume it's implied they know.

 

In the junior novelization, Obi-Wan only figures out that "Tyranus" must be Darth Tyranus shortly after Order 66:

Obi-Wan switched off the hologram completely, and the two Jedi stood in silence. How long had Darth Sidious been planning this? He had used the war, obviously - Count Dooku had been a Sith. Then Obi-Wan remembers: the first Sith he had encountered, back when he was still a Padawan. The Sith with the double-sided lightsaber, who had killed his Master, Qui-Gon Jinn. Did the plot go back that far?

Yes, it had to. He saw it now, the whole clever, subtle plan. The Jedi knew that Darth Sidious had urged the Trade Federation to start the long ago war on Naboo. Now Obi-Wan could see the true purpose of that war: to provide the opportunity for Senator Palpatine to become Supreme Chancellor Palpatine. And then Palpatine must have seduced Count Dooku to the dark side, so that by the time his term as Chancellor was running out, the Separatists would be ready to start a larger war. Because of the Separatist threat, the Senate had begged Palpatine to stay on as Chancellor, and granted him more and more "emergency powers" in an effort to win a war that always seemed about to finish, but never was quite won.

Even the clone troops - the Jedi had accepted without question that Master Sifo-Dyas had arranged for their creation. But Sifo-Dyas was long dead. And that bounty hunter, the one who had provided the original genetic material for the clones ... he'd told Obi-Wan that a man named Tyranus had recruited him. Obi-Wan had thought it was another lie; they'd found no man named Tyranus. But I'll bet there was a Darth Tyranus! Why didn't I see it then?


In the adult novelization - a scene slightly different from the movie - Grievous refers to his trainer as "Lord Tyranus" and Obi-Wan thinks that this is Dooku:


Now he had four arms. And four hands.
And each hand took a lightsaber as his cloak dropped to the floor.
They snarled to life and Grievous spun all four of them in a flourishing velocity so fast and so seamlessly integrated that he seemed to stand within a pulsing sphere of blue and green energy.
"Come on then, Kenobi! Come for me!" he said. "I have been trained in your Jedi arts by Lord Tyranus himself!"
"Do you mean Count Dooku? What a curious coincidence," Obi-Wan said with a deceptively pleasant smile. "I trained the man who killed him."
With a convulsive snarl, Grievous lunged.
The sphere of blue lightsaber energy around him bulged toward Obi-Wan and opened like a mouth to bite him in half. Obi-Wan stood his ground, his blade still.
Chain-lightning teeth closed on him.