Lit The Mystery of Tulak Hord - continuity shenanigans

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Sinrebirth, Dec 27, 2012.

  1. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    In possession of my copy of the ToR Encyclopedia, I flipped my way through the Sith portions and continued to amass frowns at the references to Tulak Hord. So, to summarise:

    Facts about Tulak Hord

    1. Tulak Hord was a (n accomplished) lightsaber user
    2. Tulak Hord led forces at Yn and Chabosh against the Jedi, defeating a thousand strong Jedi army at Chabosh
    3. Conquers a 'hundred worlds' for the Sith Empire
    4. Discovers the Dromund system
    5. The Stygian Caldera is easier to get into than out of, though routes have been discovered/re-discovered by various regimes, resulting in Sith colonies outside the Caldera
    6. There are no recorded Sith Wars before 5,000 BBY

    Facts about Lord Ergast


    7. Lord Ergast was among the Sith to resettle Dromund Kaas
    8. Lord Ergast attempted his rituals three centuries after Tulak Hord's death
    9. Ergast was the first Sith Lord buried on Dromund Kaas

    Facts about Aloyius Kallig

    10. Kallig spurned a wealthy upbringing to join the Sith Academy on Korriban
    11. Kallig heard of Tulak Hord's campaigns on Yn and Chabosh and offered his services to him
    12. Kallig was killed by Hord as a rival
    13. Kallig was buried on Dromund Kaas

    Facts about Ajunta Pall


    13. With twelve Dark Jedi (Masters) and their defeated hordes, conquer Korriban and Ziost
    14. Becomes Dark Lord of the Sith
    15. Contemporaries include Remulus Dreypa, Sorzus Syn, XoXaan, Karness Muur
    16. Allows for Sith to depart Korriban for Republic space, including Baron Dreypa
    17. Said Sith do not return during Pall's lifetime

    Aside about lightsabers


    18. The Exiles arrived on Korriban with lightsabers
    19. By 5,000 BBY, lightsabers were no longer 'in fashion' with the Dark Lords
    20. Slave races solved the power-pack issues even the Jedi had not solved by 5,000 BBY

    Secondary Sources

    21. NEC - dates Tulak Hord's reign as between 6,900 BBY and 5,000 BBY.

    Notes

    The Wookieepedia assumes a date of around 5,300 BBY for the death of Hord, predicated on the aside that Ergast lived three centuries after Hord, and was present at the resettling of Kaas. While the Wookiee assumes the resettling of Kaas was the one which took place under the reign of Vitiate, there is no direct reference made. It is impossible for Hord to have reigned during this time due to several points...

    a. Chabosh is near Agamar, far away from the Stygian Caldera
    b. Yn is in the Inner Rim(!)
    c. Tulak Hord killed a thousand Jedi at one battle
    d. The Sith are believed to be boogeymen by 5,000 BBY.
    e. The Sith, for the most part, have forgotten about the Jedi and Republic by 5,000 BBY

    As such, we have to assume that the Sith lost track of Dromund Kaas more than once following its discovery. After all, it was rediscovered in 4980 BBY, too. More than one civil war took place within Sith Space, and technology levels have been reduced in the greater galaxy on more than one occasion.

    The Theory

    Tulak Hord was among the contemporaries of Ajunta Pall, and an Exile. A legendary lightsaber duelist, he accompanies the Exiles to Korriban and himself conquers a hundred worlds for the Sith, expanding the Sith Empire within the Sygian Caldera. After several years, Tulak Hord, along with Dreypa and an army, depart the Caldera and advance on the Republic, possibly setting up a base on Syngia. We already know Dreypa leaves the Caldera, so a 'pre-Sith' War already occurs circa 6,900 BBY.

    Dreypa is lost during the war, but Tulak Hord continues. After hearing word of Ajunta Pall's death, Tulak reaches out to the other Exiles. Thus, Pall is correct in confirming that he never heard from the Sith who left the Caldera. Hord becomes Dark Lord of the Sith, and becomes involved in protracted campaigns on Yn and Chabosh, becoming known throughout Sith Space and with Sith flocking to his cause.

    As Hord continues to succeed, his enemies become more numerous, and he returns to Korriban, laying foundations to secure his reign. His apprentice kills him, ending his reign.

    Thoughts?
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  2. darklordoftech Chosen One

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    I too wonder about the history of Dromund Kaas. Who built the "Dark Force Temple"?
    Last edited by darklordoftech, Dec 27, 2012
  3. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    The Dark Temple was built over the tomb of Kallig. This, I assume, becomes the Dark Force Temple.

    EDIT:

    Incidentally, I wonder if Tulak's campaign starts south of Sith Space, advances on Chabosh, and then uses Arkania to spring-board around the Core? Unsure as to the tactical logic of Lord Hord, somewhat...
    Last edited by Sinrebirth, Dec 27, 2012
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  4. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    great topic Sinre! but the rhyme of Lord Hord sounds too funny :D

    well, your solution solves quite some continuity troubles in one retcon. I like it for that. Though it presents us with 2 potential but not neccessarily problems:

    1) If Tulak Hord and the Sith who left the Caldera fought a prolonged war against the Jedi/Republic how comes no captured Sith talked about their secret home Sith Space? How comes nobody was able to find the Sith and follow them like in later conflicts? Makes me think that the war was shorter and more a quick hit. They could not take Coruscant or hold major worlds and thus turned to harassing others around the core until they retreated to Sith space beliefed to be defeated/dead.

    2) If Tulak Hord fought the Jedi while he was one of the Exiles... couldn't he have done so BEFORE they became the exiles during the Hundred Year Darkness instead of attributing Yn and Chabosh to those exiles who left the caldera? Thus geography plays less troubles for us and they could have had a short war, with base on Arkania and the Sith library there, but would have failed, retreated to Sith space with Tulak Hord claiming they were victorious to get power? fits a Sith :p
  5. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    1) I would agree, generally. But the knowledge of the way from Corbos to Korriban was not known very well - the Sith studied the ship and reversed the route. As such, the technological issues were such that the hordes wouldn't have known. Further, there were only twelve Exiles, two of which went to war. Dreypa and Tulak could have kept the secret, if the route was known to one ship. Further, a short war doesn't account for why Pall doesn't know about it; he says nobody ever comes back, but Kallig knows about the campaigns. So, public knowledge has to occur after Pall's death.

    2) I would have preferred this, but because Kallig was born on Korriban, joined the Sith Academy and then asked to join Tulak Hord's forces during the engagements at Yn and Chabosh, tells us that it was post-Corbos; the Exiles didn't know where Korriban was pre-Corbos...
  6. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    I don't really see a major problem this soon after the Hundred-Year Darkness personally.

    After all, these people are still Dark Jedi first, and Lords of the [backwater worlds inhabited by this newly discovered unimportant primitive species named] Sith second. If an Exile, Tulak Hord was still a Dark Jedi Master, one of the true Jedi who understood the true nature of the Force, not those illiterate and naive Bendu-obsessed fools in the Jedi Council. If a British officer was captured in India, he still thought himself British, not an Indian.

    And as for those strange red-skinned savages who Hord had enslaved out on some misbegotten Rimworld and brought back as cannon fodder? Those fanatics were monstrous and prepared to cut their own throats before denouncing the name of their incarnate gods. Kriff, those beasts couldn't even speak Basic or decipher a star chart to point out where they'd come from! </Republic interrogator>

    (This is actually where I really like Khem Val in TOR, as he's a good example of how little information you're likely to have got over a captured servant.)
  7. DarthNefaris Jedi Master

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    I actually thought that Hord was one of the Exiles due to the fact he uses lightsaber (although we assume that the Sith stopped to use lightsabers, there is some facts that prove otherwise like in Crosscurrent with [insert name I forgot] who was scarred by a lightsaber 20 years BEFORE the Great Hyperspace War). He could have been the successor of Pall after his death.

    And I think it wasn't clearly specified that Dromund Kaas was discovered by Vitiate : at first I thought the " we rediscovered the planet " was a lie, but since it is clear in the TOR encyclopedia that Hord discovered the Dromund system, Vitiate could have not lie. So, Ergast being burried on Dromund Kaas could be located in - 6600 BBY.

    EDIT : stupid me... Ergast is told to have resettle Dromund Kaas. So yes, Hord ruled the Sith in 5300 BBY. The only problem is the fact that the Jedi didn't know about the Sith and Korriban, the war against Hord was never mentionned.
    Last edited by DarthNefaris, Dec 27, 2012
  8. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    But by 5300 BBY Hord would have been a red-skinned Sith Lord...

    ... it's simpler to assume that the Sith lost track of Dromund Kaas a few times.

    You'll also note Ergast isn't a red-skinned Sith Lord, too.
  9. Cronal Force Ghost

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    Some of the stuff coming from TOR in terms of space travel actually don't make much sense to me. I mean going to such distant places like Hoth or the Inner Rim from the Caldera? But I sometimes think the ancient Sith still had some Rakatan Force drives in their forces that allowed them to reach such locations. Not widespread tech but kept in a Sith's household and forces as a strategic advantage which could perhaps explain their very far reaching grip. I know space is third dimensional and not as simply represented in a map but some locations I think are just unrealistic such as Hoth. I do like Ceiran's idea that any battles were short and quick; not long prolonged campaigns. Seems to fit with the setting.

    On why no one interrogated the Sith... well, we do know that the Red Sith had no problem committing ritual suicide like how many did so when the Republic invaded. I'd imagine those Exiles or Sith Lords in charge died in the battle and left their followers behind who simply killed themselves. Perhaps the Republic hid knowledge of this enemy from its citizens with it only being known by the highest echelons in the government? Might explain why the Chancellor ordered such a ... complete extermination of Korriban at the conclusion of the Great Hyperspace War.
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  10. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

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    Remember that the book is, per the author, written "entirely in-universe," which may explain some of the continuity errors.
  11. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    good point on rakatan hyperdrives there and Force astrogation allowing more direct routes like the one the Jedi use to directly go to Ilum in the middle of the UR!

    still think we need an ancient Forceuser Astrogators Guild in prehyperdrive times btw and very different looking starmaps with more "direct line" routes only forceusers can take like the Coruscant - Ilum connection, the Daragon Trail and other Rakatan routes. Revan too found Lehon in the middle of the UR without exploring all its surrounding territory. Sounds like another direct jump that was force-assisted to me!

    thus maybe the Rakata and their Force hounds had a network of those crisscrossing direct lines between their worlds in the Infinite Empire, much inlike modern hyperlane maps.

    then again, the Sith might have used Gree gates or Kwa hypergates too... though much less likely.
  12. DarthNefaris Jedi Master

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    Not necessarily, there were "pure " humans (meaning no red skin) in the Sith Empire. Tulak could have been one.
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  13. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    But he couldn't have been Dark Lord when humans are slaves.
  14. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    Depends in what capacity he became a Sith Lord really. If he was one of the Exiles, then I could easily see him still becoming ruler, even when humans were now slaves.

    Hypothetical: if Baron Dreypa had woken up, returned to Korriban, would he not have instantly laid his smack down on the inbred mongrels that now ruled his empire, and declared his right to rule his empire?

    So if Tulak Hord was someone from an earlier age that just, for whatever reason, "came back" to Korriban after it had been taken over by the hybrids, then I could easily see him demonstrating why he was not just some random human lackey. (Depending on how the timeline matches up, he could even have called on the Tapani exiles as military might to reestablish his claim to the throne.)
    Last edited by Zorrixor, Dec 28, 2012
  15. Cronal Force Ghost

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    I do wonder though whether the ancient Red Sith Empire was perhaps the inverse of the Sith Emperor's ones. We see Human High Culture in the TOR era Sith who look down on alien slaves and the like unless they are exceptional and manage to rise through the ranks. Could something have been possible with the Red Sith? That all aliens from outside the Caldera were treated badly except those few Force sensitives that managed to prove themselves? Not sure they would have been easily accepted either but I do wonder if it were possible. After all, the Exiles did manage to bully their way into power by making themselves look like gods to the ancient Sith so makes me think whether a potentially powerful Sith slave could rise in power and enter the ranks of the elite Sith Lords. Again, they might not be popular and face potential assassinations but aint that in the end what Sith society is all about? :p
  16. darklordoftech Chosen One

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    Remember, the Exiles were the highest caste.
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  17. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    only humans are so cruel to enslave other humans :p it can work
  18. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    It's fine for 6,900 BBY, though. 5,000 BBY, not so much. You're agreeing with me :p
  19. DarthNefaris Jedi Master

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    I don't remember the Humans being slaves in the Old Sith Empire. After all, the Exiles were humans and were the Upper caste. Anyway, 5300 BBY is kind of confirmed with two facts : Ergast was of the ones who resettled Dromund Kaas (which was in 4980 BBY) and did his ritual 300 years after Hord's death.

    Plus, I don't remember Hord being a human. This was never confirmed, so he could be a red-skinned Sith.

    The only problem is the fact he battled and killed Jedis, and somehow they did not remember him or the Sith.
  20. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    Someone has to survive for them to remember him... [face_whistling]
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  21. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    In the Lost Tribe of the Sith novels, I think there was an example of a human character, who was a slave or servant, recalling being abused by Ludo Kressh- and his rage was at least partly because he foresaw humans taking over the Sith Empire.
  22. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    Humans were slaves in Lost Tribe, yup. All of them are a lower class.

    The Jedi and Republic know nothing about the Sith in 5000 BBY.

    The majority of the Sith have forgotten the Jedi and Republic in 5000 BBY.

    Hord's Dashade was in stasis for millennia by 3600 BBY. Not just one and a bit.

    Hord used a lightsaber and the Dark Lords did not by 5000 BBY.

    Kallig, Hord's rival, learned lightsaber drills at the Sith Academy.

    Oooooh, more importantly...

    Page 152 of the Encyclopedia... Under Force Spirits.

    'Impressed by the powerful Force spirits, Sith Lord Ergast developed a Force-walking ritual thousands of years ago to absorb restless spirits of the dead and feed off their incredible hunger.'

    Ergast must have resettled Dromund Kaas after it was lost again (again). Thousands of years pre-ToR is not 4980 BBY... :D
    Last edited by Sinrebirth, Dec 28, 2012
  23. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    Regarding lightsabers, that's a bit grey nowadays tbh since you've got the Tapani exiles of [insert unspecified date] who brought not only the human slave stock but reintroduced lightsabers too -- accounting for the ones in Lost Tribe, Crosscurrent, etc, circa. 5000 BBY. So these days it seems less that Naga Sadow et al couldn't have had one, and simply that they chose not to.

    So Hord might just have been an exception who wanted to get back in touch with his Jedi roots.

    "Ooh! Tapani with new crystals! YAAAY!! I can be the first Dark Lord in millennia to wield one of the old weapons! Wooooo!!"

    Then Marka Ragnos rolled his eyes and decided the Empire needed to be a bit more conservative and not run around warmongering and risking discovery.
    Last edited by Zorrixor, Dec 28, 2012
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  24. darklordoftech Chosen One

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    I was under the impression that Naga Sadow represented the ways of the Exiles while Ludo Kressh represented ways of the Red Sith. Kressh was probably afraid of the Red Sith being enslaved AGAIN.
  25. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    It's possible that the "Red Sith" by the time of Lost Tribe, were all human-Sith hybrids.