The Mythology used in Star Wars

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth_Dagsy, Feb 10, 2003.

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  1. DarthAttorney Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2000
    star 6
    :eek:

    Ozhaggis: this is exactly the kind of thing this forum was designed to encourage.

    I hope you keep up this brilliant series of posts man :D
  2. leia_naberrie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2002
    star 4
  3. TheOzhaggis Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 5
    Myth 7: Resurrection / Rebirth

    The hero rises from the dead. He acts out humanity?s most elementary desire ? to overcome death physically and be united with the natural cycle of birth, death and rebirth.

    With some variations, the major pattern of the myth is of the hero who dies a violent death, journeys to the underworld, and returns to the world as a living being. Resurrection / rebirth is the final stage of the sequence. This finalises the defeat of death with the hero?s rebirth ? in some cultures, the dead are represented by figures painted in the foetal position.

    In the underworld the monsters and gargoyles of the infantile, nightmarish past have been defeated, and the individual emerges now in his new form, having experienced the very depths of the personal and collective being.

    When the god Telepinu (Hittite) disappears, the earth becomes barren. With his return comes a revival of nature symbolised by the newborn lamb ? a symbol later important to Christianity as well..

    But the death / resurrection is not always a literal death / resurrection. The death, journey to the underworld, and resurrection simply represent a form of the withdrawal, meditation, and return.

    The sun goddess Amaterasu (Japanese) was so disgusted by her brother?s violence towards women (a symbol of man?s violence towards nature) that she enclosed herself in a cave and refused to leave. As a result, the land died (devoid of sun). She was lured out by a celebration, and the land was revived.

    Other resurrected / reborn heroes include: Hercules, Adonis, Dionysus, Attis, Hyacinth (Greek/Roman), Telepinu (Hittite), Buddha, Osiris, Kutoyis, Bear Man (Cherokee Indian), Wanjiru (African), Quetzalcoatl (Aztec), etc?

    Star Wars is bursting with literal and symbolic resurrection / rebirths. It happens so often that people are often not sure whether a character is really dead. Which is why we have a legion of Darth Maul fans who swear that he will return ?

    In the early minutes of TPM, Gui-Gon & Obi-Wan appear to die in a room full of poisonous gas, only to emerge, miraculously unharmed. (On a side note, compare this to the ambush scene in Pulp Fiction ? and for that matter, compare the opening with Pulp Fiction: two ?heavies? are sent by their boss to solve a situation involving some naïve twits out of their depth, only to be ambushed, and then miraculously escape unharmed?)

    Even Jar Jar is symbolically resurrected when Qui-Gon saves him from being beaten to death (his punishment in the script, cut from the film).

    Anakin faces several symbolic deaths during the podrace ? his podracer, an extension of himself, dies several times, only to be resurrected just in time?

    Qui-Gon dies at the hands of Darth Maul, but is resurrected twice: he appears dead until Obi-Wan defeats Darth Maul, and then revives briefly, before dying a second time ? only to be resurrected again when Anakin slaughters the Tuskens.

    Padme appears to die when her ship is destroyed, but with the use of a decoy she overcomes death and is resurrected.

    Anakin appears to die twice during his battle with Dooku, but is resurrected both times. Likewise, Obi-Wan appears to die during his battle with Dooku, but is also resurrected.

    Obi-Wan has a symbolic rebirth when Luke finds him in the desert. Ben, the crazy old hermit, dies, and Obi-Wan Kenobi is reborn.

    Luke is resurrected when he emerges from the water in the trash compactor. The four heroes are also reborn when they emerge from the belly of the trash compactor.

    They are also resurrected when they emerge from their underworld / labyrinths. The first death star, a mechanical monster of sorts, swallows the Falcon, and the heroes must find a way out of its belly. When they do, they are reborn.

    Obi-Wan is resurrected several times to help Luke.

    When the Rebels attack the first and second death stars, they are also resurrected when they escape from its fiery explosions. Many of them die on the journey through this underworld, but Lando and Wedge are resurrected when they shoot out of
  4. TheOzhaggis Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 5
    Myth 8: Ascension / Apotheosis / Atonement

    The hero reflects a later desire, to be given special treatment by being taken out of the cycle and placed in a permanent state in relation to the cosmos and to the creator-father-god. Man longs for eternal life, for immortality. Thus the hero ascends to heaven, achieves atonement, or is made a god himself, if he was not one already.

    This represents the individual?s final step. Having dealt with his childhood, his inner self, his adult life, and the problem of death, he is prepared to discover the divine once and for all.

    The long-suffering Oedipus is whisked away by the gods. God takes Moses?s soul with a kiss, and takes Abraham to paradise. The Buddha?s is atoned perfectly with all things. From his funeral pyre, Hercules emerges and ascends to the heavens. Arthur is carried away to the secret Isle of Avalon. Dionysus, having completed his missions on earth and in the underworld, ascends to the heavens.

    In Star Wars, the ascension / apotheosis / atonement is represented by those who die physically, but live on in the Force. They are removed from the cycle of life and death, but achieve immortality as spirits.

    Qui-Gon is the first (in the films) to ascend. He dies physically, but lives on in the spirit world.

    The next to ascend is Obi-Wan. He allows himself to die physically at the hands of Vader, but in death he achieves immortality as a spirit, at one with the Force and all things. From the spirit world, he continues to guide Luke, representing the wisdom of the past, our ancestors.

    Yoda then ascends, joining Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in the spirit world.

    Finally, Anakin ascends.

    Luke sees them ? Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Anakin ? united, at one with the Force, having achieved immortality in the spirit world.


    And so the saga ends ...
  5. Krede Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2000
    star 4
    Excellent posts, I actually learned a lot.
  6. TheOzhaggis Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 5

    Or, from a more practical point of view, if you want to ignore all the spiritual and pyschological babble, you can look at the theories of someone like Vladimir Propp, who studied Russian folktales / fairytales. Like Campbell, he also believed that all tales tell the same basic tale.

    His basic argument is that the actions are constant, but the characters and objects are variable. From a linguistic point of view: the verbs are constant, but the nouns are variable. Or, from a poetic point of view: the words change, but the song remains the same.

    For example, two of the first basic actions (there are 31 in total) are Dispatch and Departure.

    The hero is approached with a request or demand (Dispatch). The hero sets forth (Departure) ...

    1. The King sends Ivan to find the princess. Ivan leaves.
    2. The King sends Ivan to find a rare object. Ivan leaves.
    3. The sister sends her brother to find a remedy. The brother leaves.
    4. The stepmother sends her stepdaughter to find fire. The stepdaughter leaves.
    5. The blacksmith sends his apprentice to find the cow. The apprentice leaves.
    6. Eurystheus sends Hercules to find the Nemean lion. Hercules leaves.
    6. The Jedi Council sends Obi-Wan to find the assassin. Obi-Wan leaves.

    There are different ways to transform the elements of one tale into another.

    Reduction: the original version is reduced. The cottage on hen?s feet in the forest is reduced to, say, the cottage, or the forest.

    Amplification: the original version is enlarged and filled out. The cottage becomes the cottage made of gingerbread and lollies.

    Inversion: the original version is turned into its opposite. Male becomes female, etc.

    Intensification: the original version is intensified. The abduction of the princess becomes the murder of the princess.

    Weakening: the original is made weaker. The murder of the sister becomes the kidnap of the sister.

    Internal substitution: the original is replaced with something similar from within the tale. The cottage may be replaced by a palace, or a mountain cave.

    Realistic substitution: the original is replaced by something from real life. The cottage becomes a motel, or a two-storey house.

    Confessional substitution: replacing the original with a 'religious' form. The dragon becomes the devil.

    For example, you could look at the tale of Leia rescuing Han as a transformation of the tale of Isis rescuing Osiris:

    Set went to the feast organised to celebrate the return of Osiris.
    Set becomes Vader. The feast becomes ?a little refreshment,? organised by Lando. Osiris becomes Han.

    Set brought in a casket and tricked Osiris into climbing in.
    The casket becomes a carbon freezing chamber. Vader brings Han to it and forces him to enter it.

    As soon as Osiris climbed in, Set closed the lid, nailed it shut, and threw it in the Nile.

    As soon as Han entered the chamber, Vader had Han frozen in carbonite. Throwing the casket in the Nile then becomes giving the casket to Boba Fett.

    Isis set forth to find Osiris. She was aided by Anubis, Osiris?s son by another woman.
    Isis becomes Leia, who sets off to find Han. Anubis becomes Chewbecca, Han?s closest friend.

    Meanwhile, the waves of the Nile washed the casket onto the shore in Byblos. The casket became part of a tree, which was then used to construct the palace of the King of Byblos.
    Byblos becomes Tatooine. The king of Byblos becomes Jabba the Hutt. Bobba Fett transports Han to Tatooine, and the carbonite becomes a part of Jabba?s palace.

    In time, with the aid of Anubis and the sacred birds, Isis discovered the location of Osiris?s body and went to the royal city.
    The sacred birds become Lando, etc. With the help of Chewie, Lando, Luke, Artoo & Threepio, Leia goes to the palace of Jabba the Hutt.

    Isis disguised herself as a servant and entered the palace.
    Leia disguised herself as a bounty hunter (also a servant) and entered the palace.

    Isis struck the column, which then split open to reveal the coffin.
    Striking the column becomes pressing a few buttons...


    S
  7. Padawan915 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2002
    star 6
    :eek:

    Excellent points everyone. It's been a while, but I've been thinking about what I learned back in philosophy and started to apply it to Star Wars.

    Mainly on an Aristotle basis, but let's look at virtue in the characters. Each of the characters has a certain level of virtue to them. Aristotle defined character according to four levels, virtuous, contintent, incontinent and vicious. Virtous is someone who does good for the general purpose of it. A continent person is someone who will do something but have some relucatance of doing an action. The incontinent is one who reaches a right decision, but suffers weakness of will. The vicious person however, suffers to their desires and does things according to their own will.

    I applied these characteristics to some of the main characters, and I was able to establish the following:

    A virtuous person is someone like Padme, who does good deeds, because she acts in accordance with what is right, without falling to her will. (However, this is broken in AOTC, which breaks Aristotle's system)

    A continent character is someone along the lines of Luke. He does the right action, but he contests his will. The best example is when he leaves Obi-Wan's company in ANH to find his uncle and aunt dead on the homestead. He knows its the right thing to do, but in the end, it harms him.

    The incontinent character is Han. He wants to help the Rebels, but is conflicted with his own desires. His will is harmed by his feelings for Leia and for money. Any mercenary is like this.

    Now the vicious person. This may suprise a lot of people, but according to Aristotle's definitions of character, I'd define Anakin as a vicious person of character. He falls to his will numerous times. He is told not to leave Naboo, but his will tells him to do otherwise. He breaks many rules and does many actions that may seem good, but are really not in the long run.

    I'm trying to bring in a different aspect of discussion to this thread. I thought some philosophy would help move this along. :)

    Note: Much of this argument uses Aristotle's ideas from Nichomean Ethics, an excellent read.
  8. DarthAttorney Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2000
    star 6
    Does anyone know a mythological story regarding Luke being put inside the dead Taun Taun to keep him alive? I'm sure I've heard a very similar tale somewhere but I just can't remember the bloody thing! :(
  9. bad radio Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 26, 1999
    star 4
    >>>> Does anyone know a mythological story regarding Luke being put inside the dead Taun Taun to keep him alive?

    There?s nothing mythological about it. That scene was taken from Akira Kurosawa?s film Dersu Uzala.
  10. Falls_the_Shadow Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 3
    Padawan915 saw an Old Testament Samuel-Saul-David-Solomon reference.

    2 Samuel 12
    24 And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the LORD loved him.
    25 And he sent by the hand of Nathan the prophet; and he called his name JEDIdiah, because of the LORD.

    The Fall of the Knights of the Jedi Temple
    Does this sound familiar?

    An order of warrior monks marked in history (1) by their humble beginning, (2) by their marvelous growth, and (3) by their tragic end.

    In time, this order acquired great wealth, which may also have contributed to a certain laxity in morals, but the most serious charge against it was its insupportable pride and love of power.

    The order was quite independent, except from the distant authority of the head of the central government.

    In the dwellings of the order, which were both monasteries and cavalry-barracks, life was full of contrasts. The members of this order were "in turn lions of war and lambs at the hearth; rough knights on the battlefield, pious monks in meditation; formidable to the enemies of the Light, gentleness itself towards all others." Having renounced all the pleasures of life, they faced death with a proud indifference; they were the first to attack, the last to retreat, always docile to the voice of their leader, the discipline of the monk being added to the discipline of the soldier. As an army they were never very numerous. They were forbidden to offer a ransom. When taken prisoners, they scornfully refused the freedom offered them on condition of betrayal (Think Mace Windu in the arena, "We will not be bartered as hostages.")

    The order became involved in the weak and irresolute government, exposed to all the disadvantages of internal factions and corruption. However, this Order was soon opposed by a new military force that became its rival. While the members of the Order sacrificed themselves with their customary bravery in the final struggles of their government, they were, nevertheless, partly responsible for its downfall.

    What is the name of this order? There are two answers: one is our familiar Jedi; the other is the Knights Templar. A brief concise article is found here: Knights Templar The full title of Knights Templar was the Knights of the Temple of Solomon.

    Like the Templars, I think the Jedi will be declared enemies of the state based upon ?the strength of so-called revelations of a few unworthy and degraded members.? Then the whole order will be disgraced in the public?s view. Some of the leaders, like Mace Windu, might be executed in public. The average citizen of the Republic/Empire will see the Jedi as best, members of a useless ?hokey religion? or at worst, enemies to peace. In the OT, none of the rebels outside of Han Solo seems to know of Luke?s Jedi ties.

    In name and history, the Jedi are an order of the knights of Solomon.
  11. TheOzhaggis Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 5
    ... from a certain point of view.


    Personally, I see closer ties with shaolin buddhist monks.

    To plagiarise myself from another thread:

    In the original trilogy, what (little) we were told about the Force sounded a lot like buddhism. In the prequels, it sounded even more like buddhism, and the Jedi themselves acted and thought very much like shao-lin buddhist monks. In AOTC, the Jedi are so close to shao-lin buddhist monks that it almost becomes a lesson in buddhism.

    The conversation in AOTC between Anakin & Padme, about the Jedi not being allowed to love, sounds like Lucas lifted it straight out of the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying. One of the central tenets of buddhism is love and compassion without attachment (ie, possessiveness):

    PADMÉ: Are you allowed to love? I thought that was forbidden for a Jedi.

    ANAKIN: Attachment is forbidden. Possession is forbidden. Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is central to a Jedi's life, so you might say we're encouraged to love.

    Shao-lin

    In the Shao-lin Temple's heyday, the Buddhist monks would incorporate martial arts study with Buddhism. Because of this, many traditional Buddhist Temples said fighting in any shape was not allowed. For this reason the Honan Shao-lin monks stood alone and were unique among traditional Buddhist monks.

    The Shao-lin Monks studied the fighting concepts so they could better understand the source of violence and thereby overcome it. Physical attack upon a monk would only bring an appreciated response. Never would excess force be used. The Buddhist justified this action by saying they were only repelling an attack back to its source. They reasoned their response to an assault came from the attacker - they were merely redirecting the force back to its source.

    Action was only taken in defense of some physical harm; never would they initiate an attack. This is where the idea arose, that the martial arts is a defensive art not an offensive art. Most monks today are in such control of themselves and their environment, that few, if any, conflicts ever transpire.

    History

    By the late 1800s, China was effectively divided into national zones, each controlled by one of the outside powers (similar to post World War II Berlin, on a hugely larger scale). The long standing animosities between China and Japan worsened, and extended to include all other "foreign devils" as well. Coupled with the now almost universal disdain by the Chinese for their Empress, a Nationalist movement with nation-wide grass-roots support was born. Among the front line soldiers of the new "order" were the legendary and near-legendary martial artists--many Shaolin--known as Boxers
    By 1931 almost all non-Asian occupants had been successfully driven out. The major combatants within China were the Nationalists and the Communists. Neutrality meant nothing except the possibility of a later enemy. Consequently, Shaolin and other monks were routinely murdered by soldiers from both sides. One result of this program of murder was the exodus of many monks into the hills, or abroad, with the hope that Shaolin knowledge might survive even if the temples themselves did not...


    Padawans
    The identification of Jedi padawans is almost identical to the identification of buddhist lamas:
    "Lamas, dispatched in disguise, scour Tibet for special signs: new mothers who had unusual dreams, children who have special knowledge without being taught, and possess special traits...usually dozens of candidates are sought. They will be tested with the late lama's possessions; those who have amazing knowledge in identifying their predecessor's belongings win and become the final candidates."

    Which is almost identical to the process in TPM (except the Jedi use common objects to test candidates, not possessions).



    The name Jedi could also be a reference to the Djed Pillar, which is a symbol of the Egyptian god Osiris. Given that ESB is based on the story of Osiris, I wouldn't see this as a stretch.

  12. rpeugh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2002
    star 4
    Interesting posts. Is there anything from "THe Hero with a 1000 faces" that we can use as clues for episode 3?
  13. Delance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2002
    star 3
    As suggested by the Moderator, I'm posting on this topic.

    All quotes are from a Lucas Interview to Time Magazine.

    The influence of anthropologist Joseph Campbell is well known. I?m not sure when it started (so if and what movies were affected by it), but it?s clear on the way Lucas talks about his movies

    Take the Campbell?s ideas on books like ?The Hero with a Thousand Faces? and contrasts with what Lucas says:

    ?I'm telling an old myth in a new way. Each society takes that myth and retells it in a different way, which relates to the particular environment they live in. The motif is the same. It's just that it gets localized. As it turns out, I'm localizing it for the planet. I guess I'm localizing it for the end of the millennium more than I am for any particular place.?

    Campbell is a professed gnostic. Gnostics claims that salvation come thought ?secret knowledge?, that good and evil have equal weight as they are part of the reality, and that kind of stuff. More importantly, Campbell refuses to distinguish pain and suffering which are natural from moral wrong doing which is not.

    Why is that so important? Fans should already know. Yoda?s speech that "Fear leads to anger, Anger leads to hate, Hate leads to pain, Pain leads to suffering...." The innocent love a child for his mother is not a moral wrong, but is still as dangerous as one, and can equally lead to the dark side.

    I?m not claiming that Star Wars is gnostic. Of course it draws from many different religious sources. As George Lucas said, ?When the film came out, almost every single religion took Star Wars and used it as an example of their religion; they were able to relate it to stories in the Bible, in the Koran and in the Torah.?

    So it?s not a simple thing to interpret Star Wars. The element can have multiple different subjective interpretations. So, for example, while a given speech or fact can be interpreted as christian, under a different light it can be seen as Buddhist.

    But are all religious of the world myths, none more important than the other? Is every single religious manifestation of man but a manifestation of the same motif?

    MOYERS: When Darth Vader tempts Luke to come over to the Empire side, offering him all that the Empire has to offer, I am taken back to the story of Satan taking Christ to the mountain and offering him the kingdoms of the world, if only he will turn away from his mission. Was that conscious in your mind?

    LUCAS: Yes. That story also has been retold. Buddha was tempted in the same way. It's all through mythology. The gods are constantly tempting. Everybody and everything. So the idea of temptation is one of the things we struggle against, and the temptation obviously is the temptation to go to the dark side.


    Here are some fundamental questions about Star Wars:

    Is the Dark Side (evil) not particularly bad or wrong, but just a natural part of reality (the force), or is the dark side a corruption of the force?

    What does ?bring the force back into balance? means? Eradicating evil, or giving good and evil equal strength?

    Note 1. Star Wars draws less from gnosticism than the Matrix. And, at least as far as Reloaded goes, Matrix isn?t truly gnostic. Yes, they secret knowledge for salvation and escaping the world. But gnostics plan to escape from the ?real world? to another world, while on Matrix they try to escape frmo an immaterial world to the ?real world?. So in this way it?s quite the opposite. Instead of trying to escape from the real world, the guys on Matrix are trying to find their way back in.

    Note 2. Geonosis = Gnosis? Gnosis = Evil?

    Links:

    http://www.next-wave.org/may99/starwars.htm
  14. ValinFett21 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2003
    star 1
    I was looking at a SW Mythology book the other day and it ws extremely interesting. It showed almost all Medieval Romances(King Arthur, Beowulf) and their effect on GL and SW. I came to one conclusion, Luke is a better mythical character than Anakin.

    For Example:
    Monster Battle-Luke battles the Rancor as Beowulf battles Grendel

    Achievement-Luke succeeds where his father fails as Galahad found the Holy Grail after his father failed.

    Sidekicks-Although Anakin has the bumbling sidekick for a short time(Jar-Jar), Luke has Han and Chewie, who are better characters, obviously.

    Farm boy-Luke is the actual farm boy.
    Wise old wizard-The Obi-Wan of the PT doesn't have this persona yet(Qui-Gon did, but it didn't last very long)

    Son-Father Thing-This is kinda loose but it has some relavance. Mordred brings upon the death of his father as Luke did.

    AND LUKE SAVES THE PRINCESS, HOW MUCH MORE MYTH AND MEDIEVAL FANTASY/ROMANCE CAN YOU GET?!?

    I am a big fan of the PT as action movies(AOTC anyway) but as true myth, the OT is superior.
  15. rpeugh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2002
    star 4
    Valinfett, I must respectfully disagree. The PT is just as much a strong myth as the OT is, in my opinion.

    YOu should buy the book, STAR WARS: THE POWER OF MYTH. It's basically an abridged version of THE MAGIC OF MYTH, but it also talks about the mythic elements of THE PHANTOM MENACE.

    How about Anakan's virgin birth?
    What about the Jedi fightting the droids and how it is comparable to Jason fighting the skelotons in JASON AND THE ARGONAUTS?
    What about Darth Sidious being the monster at the heart of the labrynth of Coruscant?

    What about Darth Maul and his representaition of a Demon/lucifer?

    What about the gungan/droid battle and how it represents battles of the ROmans?

    What about the love story b/t Anakain and Padme and how it is reminisent of courtly love stories of midevil stories?

    In courtly love, it is the man that goes crazy and not the woman. In the DIVINE COMEDY, Dante had obssessed about a beautfiul woman named Beatrice whome he loved after laying his eyes on her. He thought about her for years until the day he died. Much in the same way that Anakan had thought of Padme during those 10 years. How about Anakin telling Padme, "I will do anything you ask. I am in agony. I cant breathe." That is common dialouge of courtly love.

    How about the dream sequence on Naboo where Anakin has a nightmaer about his mother? It represents adolescence, puberty, discovering women for the first time. Padme is Anakin's symbolic mythological mother, Shmi is his literal mother. He was rejected by his symbolic mother, now he has a dream sequence about his literal mother and goes to her. He finds her only to see her die. Only now can Anakin and Padme be together, because his mother is dead. He is now free to be interested in women.

    How about the love pledge where they admit thier love for each other, right before they are about to be sacrificial lamb for a bunch of huge monsters?

    For an in depth view of the mythology of AOTC, I recommend www.suite101.com/articles.cfm/16739
  16. Zethlin_Maximus Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2003
    star 4
    There's the obvious signs, like that of the DS conference table = King Arthur's Round Table. Then there's the Separatist round table in AOTC, or the Jedi semi-circle meeting chamber.
  17. DamonD Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    star 6
    How about the role of The Fool in both myth and literature, enbodied by Jar Jar and Threepio?

    A simple soul that finds themself swept up in situations beyond their capabilites and understanding, often causing problems and misunderstandings but somehow managing to bumble through?
  18. rpeugh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2002
    star 4
    Ah yes, Damond, I forgot that one. Also, the fool mangages to provide some wise advice to the heros. In TPM, Jar Jar lets Queen Amidala know about the gungans' huge army, and makes her realize that she should have been relying on that instead of the senate.
  19. little_Skywalker Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2002
    star 3
    Padawan915, I'd never noticed that before.

    rpeugh, speaking about Jar Jar and fools Yoda too could be seen in this light. He was a crazy old troll in lukes eyes and even Luke stated he was looking for a "great warrior" I remember reading a Arthuran legend about merlin and this man was looking for merlin but merlin disguised himself.
    in a way merlin and Yoda are very similar.

    Merlin was an adviser to King Arthur and Yoda was an adviser to all. they were both highly respected and held places of power.

    Dagabah (sorry if spellings off) is in a way like Avalon a mythical place. Avalon serves as the place of the sleeping king,he will return in britians hour of greatest need. Dagabah also serves as a resting place of Yoda he hid for over a decade only to be brought out when he was needed.
  20. First_Stage_Lensman Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2003
    star 2
    I think that the so-called 'heroe's journey' is RUBBISH. The only way that it pertains to Star Wars is that Campbell's theories definately influenced Lucas - but that doesn't make Campbell right. I lump Jung, Campbell, Frazier,Propp & all other 'mono-myth' theorists under one banner.

    First off I think the term 'myth' is misleading. It is at least inadequate to describe this vast and varied field of literature it is used to blanket. What people are referring to is not a type of story but rather a type of *feeling* generated by certain stories - this I call the 'mythic resonance' - put simply this is a feeling that a certain story is (a)incredibly relevant to the the individual, perhaps generating what feels like a psychological breakthrough of great personal importance, while simultaneously seeming (b) completely universal.

    From there I have two ways of approaching these sorts of stories:
    1] I believe that environment creates culture, culture creates society and this in turn generates conflicts and these conflicts comprise our history.
    2] From there you must scrutinize each set of stories: place them in time, in history, in their culture. I find the best place to start is at the end of an era - by then the stories will probably have been written down. This is good, you can use the evolution of a language to work backwards and connect a body of lore directly to changes in that culture.

    In this way it becomes apparent that these so-called myths are not notable for their similarities but rather for their *differences* which unlock important paths of human development. There is also the substrata, or subtext, which yields important keys to the human psyche.

    Each body of lore belongs to a time, a culture and a language. To mass them all together further contributes to the ongoing erosion of our common sense of history.

    + I think the best way to put it is this: we're using cultures to explore stories when it should be the other way round - stories tell us about the cultures they came from. Cart before the horse.
  21. Ghost_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2003
    star 5
    First off as others have stated great job TheOzhaggis

    Another idea of mythology, and this is more in the cowboy and indian lore, but luke flies in on his x-wing to destroy the death star. The x-wing is white, like the good guy riding in on his white horse.

    Also Vader could very well represent the Black Knight of Arthurian lore.
  22. First_Stage_Lensman Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2003
    star 2
    I'd love to debate this issue with Ozhaggis. You out there Ozzy?!?
  23. Darth_Dagsy Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2000
    star 6
    I think Oz is still around...you might have to PM him to get his attention though.

    I'll pick up one something DamonD said:

    How about the role of The Fool in both myth and literature, enbodied by Jar Jar and Threepio?

    A simple soul that finds themself swept up in situations beyond their capabilites and understanding, often causing problems and misunderstandings but somehow managing to bumble through?


    Actually, its not strictly on topic (naughty mod!), but I find Jar Jar to have had a complete role reversal between TPM and AotC. In TPM, he was the outcast from both sides that proceeded to bring both camps together. In AotC, he was loved by both sides, and proceeded to start a war (well, his speech gave the impetus to the Senate to start the war).

    Just an interesting note, thats all.
  24. der-der-diggit Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2003
    star 1
    Um... PLease please please read something, anything, by Vladimir Propp! I posted this beore but he was a Russian Mentallist who decided to trace and code ALL fairy tales and folk stories by letter and number. It's very funny when you can see that "R2D2wah" = the magic key cause he mapped it out that way. (Unfortunately, the insurrgent Communist ('stards) government threw him in prison for saying Russian tradition was the same as everyone elses. Then he spent years in prison trying to disprove his own theory and got imprisoned again cause the regime changed...)

    That's where Cambell got his ideas from and thats one of the MANY sources Lucas used to create his matinee mythology that we all loved so much,,,

    Love and strawberries,,,,


    Der der diggit!

  25. der-der-diggit Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2003
    star 1
    And "the FOOL" is somethoing else altogether...
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