JCC "The N-word"

It's incorrect for more complex reasons. Namely, all these other groupings actually exist. People have identified in this fashion of their own accord. "Whiteness" however, is not a concept on its own, but only exists in opposition to an outside or excluded group. There are absolutely white cultural identities that have great richness and value: Polish, Italian, Irish, etc. In the US, these have been doted on for years. There is at least as robust a celebration of Irishness around St. Patrick's Day here as there is any other sort of heritage. So it's simply incorrect to claim that white people can't access widely accepted expressions of cultural pride. They simply can't do so around the word "white" because the term doesn't really have much meaning.

 

I was just curious to know what people here think of the difference between the n-word ending in "-er" and the seemingly more innocuous yet still quasi-taboo version ending in "-a." To me, it seems like when most people, including blacks and whites, use the n-word, they're usually using the latter, and it seems to have different connotations than the former.

 

Yes, good point. I agree.

 

The way I saw it expressed (and agree with) was "you don't NEED white pride, m*f*!".

I thought this is different, guess it isn't.

 

I had the following conversation once the first day on a former job a long time ago with my boss, who is black:

Boss: All you have to do is remember I'm the H-N-I-C. You know what that stands for?
Me: Yeah, I know what that stands for
Boss: What's that stand for?
Me: Well...... I'm actually not comfortable saying what it stands for...
Boss: What's the "H" stand for?
Me: Head
Boss: Yup, you know what that stands for

 

In my experience, for what it's worth, the "-a" version is what is used fairly ubiquitously in the black community, especially in hip-hop culture. However, it's also been my experience that white people who want to use the word consider it a distinction without a difference. In fact, to quote one guy who was extolling the injustice of blacks being able to say the N-word and whites not being able to "And you guys don't even pronounce it right! It's ****ER not ****a! What the hell is up with that? A ***** is a *****, right?*pause* What? Don't look at me like I'm a racist. Chris Rock said the same thing!"

 

Some people really suck.

 

Why can't we just get rid of it like the confederate flag?

 

It's a word, not a flag.

Souderwan, I've observed that a lot of young, white people like to use the "-a" ending n-word to refer to friends in casual conversation. While I personally am never going to use any variation of the n-word myself, I can't help but wonder when a word becomes a new word, with a different meaning. A lot of people in this thread talk about the n-word being black people's word only, but what about for a new generation, with quite possibly a new word?

Also, I'm curious what you think about something I was prompted to think about by urban dictionary. There seem to be people that believe it's okay to use the n-word with perfectly innocuous meaning, so long as they're not in the presence of black people. Is that a case of "a tree falling in the woods making no sound" or is it still not okay?

 

I have to say that I am disappointed by the reception of this topic. It's like there's no room for nuanced opinions. I've seen a lot of deliberate misunderstanding, which I didn't expect, because I assumed people would understand where I'd be coming from by now.

What I have been arguing for all this time was that people - all people - should be able to refer to the word. Not to be able to direct it to anybody. I understand now that that's too soon. But the pitchfork responses were unneccessary. Or are we all turning into Vivecs?

It's also rather disheartening to get no responses when I give in. It's like people are only interested in piling on others and drumming up Likes.

 

I know, right? It's almost like this slur is a hot button, emotionally charged topic or something. . .

 

Well you're trying to reinvigorate a word that has a very weighty history. It wasn't put into the category of "taboo" words because people thought it would bring fire and brimstone down on whoever used it, or that it had a naughty connotation, or the usual reasons words fall under the cussing category. It's basically been given an indefinite time-out. As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, why would you want to use it? It's been used enough already for too many horrible reasons. Everyone knows it exists; it's not like it's in any threat of being forgotten. The conscious decision not to use it doesn't mean the word has power over us, it means we've reflected on its awful history and have deliberated chosen not to use it in our lingo.

 

Watto, if I may, on the subject of "Why can't we say *******?" in America, there are two general thrusts that white Americans typically approach the topic. The first is a free speech argument, essentially saying "This is America! I can say whatever I want. What makes this word so special?" The other is "If black people can say it and it not be considered racist, why is it racist when I say it?"

It appears to me (and appeared to me from the start, which is how I chose to answer you) that you were asking "Why do we allow this word so much power that we won't even use it constructively in polite conversation?"

The thing is, your OP and several posts afterward came across as if you were asking some variation on the typical questions. It's a tried and true question that pops up here so often that we're all pretty touchy about it. Because the person behind the question really isn't asking to gain insight but is almost always looking for a way to get permission to use the word.

So yes, people made assumptions about what question you were asking in large part because of the similarity in your question with the questions we're used to hearing and the baggage associated with those question. That's unfair. But it's also unfair to criticize us too harshly for that given what I just said. Point Given is spot on. It wasn't very clear what you were asking (I had to choose to believe you were asking the third question and even then, I was hedging my bets a bit) so naturally people have to draw their own conclusions. You can't fault us too much for drawing a conclusion different from the one you intended.

 

I've noticed the phenomenon too. My son (who looks pretty white) and his best friend (a white boy) started doing that when they were 14 or so. When I heard it, I provided some fairly forceful and unambiguous feedback to them on the topic. I'll share that feedback with you now: I'm not going to say you can't use that word. But words have meaning and that meaning has power. The purpose of communication is to articulate your thoughts, feelings, and intent. Most conflict arises because there's a disconnect between the intent of our meaning and what is received. If you say "I don't mean anything racist by it" you're putting the burden on the receiver to discern that intent. Someone who knows you and loves you might think the best of you and choose to see it the way you want them to. But most people won't. They'll see the worst in you. So what intent do you want to convey? How do you want to be viewed? The words you choose and how you construct them--not just in the use of the N-word, but really all your words--say more about you than you can ever say about yourself. Choose wisely.

I'd refer you to the bit I said above, but I'll expound just a bit. The word is, in my opinion, always OK if you're communicating clearly. If you're a racist, for example, and you want to communicate your disdain for black people, the word is ok. I'll judge you accordingly. If you're an anti-racist ally and you want to communicate how damaging the word can be, the word is also ok then. And I'll also judge you accordingly. The presence or absence of black people should have no impact on how you choose to speak. In fact, if you find that you have to modulate what you say based on the presence or absence of minorities, I think it's time to do some introspection on the kind of person you are.


Note: My use of the word "you" throughout the above is the global "you", not you personally.

 

the power of media -- hip hop culture, tv shows, movies, all using the word in its reclaimed manner, will inevitably have an impact on the generations to follow. Souderwan did your son and his friend even know the historical context? if they didn't, then that's all the better. eventually the historical context will just be a mere anecdote, and that can only be a good thing.

 

And I also think that if you ask the people making this claim what exactly they mean by "white" culture, they'd be unable to really tell you or even tell you what their actual culture is. Ask the "white" pride guy if he's talking about a German heritage or an English one or Welsh or what and most often they won't be able to even tell you which of those they are or what any of the actual cultural markers are. Those other groups are referring to culture; "white" pride people are referring specifically to the color of their skin and that's all.

And it's not like you couldn't investigate your culture. The fact is that the reason you have only the color of your skin and not actual information about your cultural heritage to celebrate is that you have deliberately chosen not to investigate. Why can't you have pride in your white cultural heritage? Because you've chosen to have no idea what it is.

 

I agree with you, epic. In 2 or 3 generations, the word may well have lost most of its punch--at least the "-a" version of the word, anyway. We're already fairly close to that point now. But my caution is that it's important to remember that, as Louis CK points out, if you see a black person with grey hair, they experienced overt and aggressive racism at some point in their lives. My mother grew up in a time where she had to sit in the back of the bus and cross burnings, while relatively rare, were not at all unheard of or surprising. A lot has changed and fairly quickly. But those scars endure. For my mother, any variation of the n-word is hurtful. My experience with racism, while real and painful, pales in comparison with hers. So my reaction to the word is much less pronounced. Similarly with my son, who has no painful experiences with the word to date.

To answer your question, no. They didn't really understand the context of the word. They understood it (vaguely) on an intellectual level. But the didn't really "get" it. That's mostly my fault (though I'm ok with it) because I didn't make race a central topic/theme in our lives. My racial identity only came up when we had to have "the talk", in which I had to warn him about the fact that his friends, given his appearance, might well inadvertently say racist things about blacks to him without knowing that his father is black.

 

B... bu... but... I thought you knew me better than that.
This happened before in the misogyny thread. With you and people like Vivec around, it seems one cannot be nuanced. It's all or nothing. I don't think that's conducive to a solution, for anything (except maybe when you're Sith). The real world is nuanced. If you never leave the barricades, you'll never reach the other side. Many, many times I've posted in the US society and black men thread; many, many times you liked those posts. I thought you'd know where I stand by now. But it seems like if I only say one thing that's not tried and tested established PC, you're suddenly my enemy.
You didn't even try to understand. You went straight to denouncing.
If all we can say here is stuff everybody already agrees with, what's the use of discussion?
If we ignore what we know about other posters, what's the use of a community?

 

For the record, I totally get what you were trying to say... I just don't agree with you.


You're still my friend, though.

 

On the other hand, Watto, you seem to be focusing in on the people who didn't take your meaning and ignoring those of us who did but provided you feedback on your communication. Why is that? Is it their fault for misunderstanding you or do you bare some responsibility for not being clear?

 

Frankly it's a word with hateful origins, so it really needs to go. It won't though.

 

Of course I bear most of the responsibility. And I'm grateful for your contributions, and those of PointGiven, Jello, KW, Hoth, and epic. Without those, I think I would have pulled an Ender!

 

Of course I bear most of the responsibility. And I'm grateful for your contributions, and those of PointGiven, Jello, KW, Hoth, and epic. Without those, I think I would have pulled an Ender!

^ sigh.