The necessity of Luke's immortality (or the Heroes's Journey's end)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Charlemagne19, Aug 31, 2001.

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  1. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Saint Patrick
    King Arthur
    Jesus
    Frodo Baggins
    Bilbo Baggins
    Buddah
    Merlin

    The reason I mention this rather illustrious pantheon is because I think it needs to be brought out that if Star Wars is to maintain even a shred of the Mythic epic foundation that it originally maintains then it is going to have to take a very necessary look at the heart of Luke Skywalker and realize one thing....

    Luke Skywalker must remain immortal

    People have been commenting on how the birth of Luke's child signals an end to his place but the Mythic foundation does not make the hero's offspring a replacement of the Hero himself but quite the opposite. Odysseus's last son as Arthurs and even Darth Vader himself that children do not replace their parents but in fact either forge entirely different paths or betray their parents legacies.

    Ben Skywalker therefore will not grow up to be the next hero of the Star Wars universe but a man living in his father's shadow or a person who ultimately destroys Luke's Camelot.

    It is the confusion about this mythic structure that indeed haunts Jacen, Jania, and Anakin's place and why they will never replace Han and Leia's part in the matter. While Anakin Skywalker truly might be Anakin Solo in reincarnation, Jacen and Jania have only managed to carve for themselves a decent place by becomming characters that bear no resembelance to their founders as well.

    Han and Leia represent in the Star Wars mythic fashion the triumph of the corporeal and fleshly love mixed with the immortality it generates. Like Elrond's brother who founds his kingdom they have achieved their own empire and it is possible for them to retire in peace and die....

    Han's hamlet without his Horatio signals a very fundemental shift after all though trying to unweave the one being he has formed with Leia has proven just how deeply misunderstanding NJO's designers have of the power of true undying love.

    Luke Skywalker in the Star Wars trilogy did not have to however take a mate because while Leia and Han were rewarded with the earthly immortality of marriage he by his triumph over Sauron/Morgoth (Palpatine) and the redemption of his Nazgul/Sauron (Vader) was given supreme spiritual power over the Star Wars universe and it's master.

    His rise from the depths of the Dark Side also has made him stronger as the Archangel Lucifer would be ten times as glorious as he was before if he emerged from Hell and it's Purging flames.

    In Dune, Paul Atredies achieves immortality whether he wants it or not in the form of his child Leto as do all of his mythic descendants and the God Emperor proves unkillable no matter what because at the heart of Frank Herbert's secular morality Paul and his line are the "soul" of the Galaxy-flawed, arrogant, violent, but never selfish.

    Luke has not negated his supreme spiritual power by taking a lover though it has hurt somewhat his role as a "lone hermit struggling against the darkness" that Ben Kenobi and Qui Gon Jinn both possesed. The Force was their mistress as well as father and teacher.

    Mara however by bringing him the last bit of insight serves as the "Goddess" figure ushering in Luke's final enlightment to becomming a Jedi at peace with himself...a Grandmaster of the Jedi like none that have ever come before. In effect unlike Han and Leia who can die in each other's arms but never survive long without the other Luke can have physical relations with Mara because she is the Viviane Lady of the Lake, Moraganna Le Fey/Guinevere figure all in one. A bringer of wisdom tied to his love of the Fore not a being apart from him to divide his attentions. Callista failed in this regard because she fails to challenge the hero ahead but merely reflects his vanity and feeds his appetite...the Lady of Shallot to Lancelot she is too easily had and wants nothing greater of the Knight than himself.

    To sum it up Luke Skywalker from this day forward can never perish and his place should be preserved as the Once and Future King of the Star Wars universe. Unlike in Tolkien and Arthur however Star Wars
  2. RogueJaina Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2001
    star 4
    I could wax Jungian, but I'll refrain, instead skipping to-

    Luke's mentors stayed alive through the Force after death, and I think that when Luke dies, a similar but perhaps grander fate is in store; for instance, perhaps Luke will stay longer than the others, or accomplish more.

    There is nothing new under the sun.
  3. Darth Cerberus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 1999
    star 3
    I haven't got time to discuss every thing you've brought up just now (maybe tomorrow). [face_devil]

    quote-----------------
    Ben Skywalker therefore will not grow up to be the next hero of the Star Wars universe but a man living in his father's shadow or a person who ultimately destroys Luke's Camelot.
    ---------------------

    Of course. Ever notice that sons of heroes almost invariable grow up to villians or sterling examples of mediocrity. Based on past evidence Ben doesn't have a chance in hell of matching his old man.

    BTW, I know someone is itching to mention Anakin Skywalker. All I can say is that Luke got in 20 years ahead of the guy before he was replaced as the hero of the GFFA.


    I think your definition of immortality would included being a ghost that offers advice to everyone. Kind of like Obi-Wan to Luke.

  4. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    About St. Patrick:

    "After years of living in poverty, traveling and enduring much suffering he died March 17, 461. He died at Saul, where he had built the first church and is reputedly buried at nearby Downpatrick."

    doesn't sound immortal to me, ;).
  5. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    "An Angel appeared to Saint Patrick and asked him a request to which Saint Patrick replied on the Day of Judgement he would request that he could return and judge the Irish people instead of the Lord."

    -Legends of the Isles, Video 1, Episode 2

    It's most definately part of his myth. As for Ghost that unfortunately is too weak a defination for a spirit such as Lukes. I appreciate Ben's return seemingly as Anakin seems to have because it shows the "Dead" are by no means so but simply elevated more to godhood like Hercules.

    Ghosts like Hamlet's father and perhaps even Obi Wan in Zahn seem more like restless spirits troubled by events in the world rather than beings who will eventually resolve them.

    Star Wars to become truly an epic I think needs Luke as the possible Eternal Champion and gaurdian of Star Wars.

    Why I advocate reincarnation or some other method for Star Warsians to return. Perhaps the "Pure Forms" (as opposed to ghosts) of such like Vodo speaking of a return of the Jedi.

    Perhaps even with Luke to lead them, simply put however aside from the destruction of the Vong in one swoop, Extreme old age, or betrayal by his son there is no death that I can imagine fitting for Luke.

    Otherwise it mocks the power of the Grail that Luke has recovered.
  6. Dev Sibwarra Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 4
    Nice essay.

    So how can immortality be worked into Star Wars? Will Luke have to use Palpatine's methods, or become a computer like Callista? Perhaps become a more powerful 'Jedi ghost'? Or some cross between LotR and Ender's Game- he drifts off into space to be kept alive by time dilation.
  7. Corran9 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2000
    star 4
    Lucifer isnt the Archangel, he was just a Serafin. Michael is the Archangel.
  8. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    Oh, so it's part of the legend of Saint Patrick, as opposed to the historical Saint Patrick.
  9. PrinceXizor Former TF.N Foreign Book Cover Staff

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    star 5
    Actually I think there are 7 or 9 archangels, but that Lucifer isn't part of them. But I might be wrong.
  10. Corran9 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2000
    star 4
    No there is only one Archangel, and a handfull of Serafins, of which Lucifer was one.

    I disagree to a point that Luke must remain immortal. I do think its very soon for his death however. Perhaps Luke's character will never be resolved: left the reader's imagination, if you will. Ben is a mystery, will he great like his father, or evil like his grandfather? I for one would perfer him to be more like Luke than Vader, or Mara for that matter. Mara has many great traits, but I think its a personallity too strong for the son of Luke. Well we'll soon see what the minds of SW writers will do with the saga...
  11. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    Lucifer was the head angel, when he fell from heaven, gabriel took his place as head angel.
  12. Corran9 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2000
    star 4
    No way. Gabriel?!? He was a messanger angel! The Serafins were very high up on the scale but Michael, being the archangel, is the "head angel"
  13. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    Actually there is no verse that I know of that states what position lucifer held, and the story of how gabriel was given the archangel position is not in the bible that I know of.

    My friend at this point we would be getting into doctrinal belief systems, which strongly depends on what denomination, what biblical legends, and what culture you come from. Let me say I won't step any further, I'll respect what you believe. But also know that there are other variations on the Who is what, and what was who in the bible.
  14. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Traditionally Lucifer the Lightbringer in Christian myth (as opposed to biblical lore) has been given the position of First born Angel of the Lord and a pretty damn impressive figure.

    Other traditions have Michael as the Firstborn and Lucifer Second child.

    As for who is the "head"

    Michael is the one who drove Lucifer out of Heaven and is traditionally given as the Leader of the Heavengly Host

    Gabriel is however the anncuiator who spoke the truth of Jesus's birth to Mary and the Koran to Muhammed so technically his position may be higher.

    Other Archangels of note in Mythology include Uriel the Angel of Death and Raphael the Archangel of Healing.

    But again their positions depend greatly on what your saying just look at everything from Quabbalah to Angelogy to In Nomine the RPG.

    What I was saying however is a being who passes through darkness and horror and survives is far stronger for it than he ever could have been had he not faced those horrors and a redeemed Lucifer would never fall again.

  15. PrinceXizor Former TF.N Foreign Book Cover Staff

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    star 5
    Uriel and Raphael. Thanks Charlemagne, I knew I heard about other archangels. But this does not come from the Bible, I think...

    EDIT : I found the 7 names : Gabriel, Fanuel, Michael, Uriel, Raphael, Israel, Uzziel

    EDIT 2 : And it changes according to the different 'faiths'... So... Well... I'll stop here. This is not the subject of the thread.
  16. Darth_TK421 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2001
    Uh, question.

    Does Mara get to be immortal, or if Luke dies a heroic, symbolic "pseudo-death", will Mara have to join him since they are linked?
  17. Corran9 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2000
    star 4
    Understandable Valiento, but I believed you might've mixed up some words there regarding Gabriel becoming archangel.

    Well the point is, that if Luke is to follow past mythologies, as he's had so far, then his future has already been written....its only a matter of choosing one of the few outcomes. This is of course, if the bigwigs want to make the majority of the people happy. Doing something radical, might not fly well with alot of people.
  18. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    Actually depending on what denomination someone may be from, Michael was one of God's names, and he was the Archeangel.

    Note Head Angel is not the same as Archeangel, in the belief system, that Michel/Messiah/God/Yaweh/ETC, was the head of the hosts of heaven, and Lucifer was the second in command, the Head angel.

    That is where, and I stress depending on one's doctrinal beliefs, that he story of Gabriel taking Lucifer's position(when he was thrown out), comes from.

    It's just one beliefe in many different Denominational and doctrinal views.
  19. Corran9 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2000
    star 4
    Dude, who's bitting your head off? I was just pointing out that I thought you crossed "gabriel" for "michael." And if you what a reference of "michael as the archangel" read the book of Jude, in the bible.

    I'm completely understandable of different view of a subject. Sometimes the written word isnt very clear, therefore my thoughts and opinions can be misunderstood.
  20. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Well the reason heroes children have a history of mediocrity or villians is that they usually are the dynamic opposite of their parents lifestyles...

    Let us for instance examine the situations for the trilogy.

    Our spiritual leader for instance...

    Luke Skywalker is able to be a hero because like his father he grew up hand in mouth on the desert planet of Tatooine. Luke is not particularly oppressed which like Jesus allows him to grow up with an innocent and decent worldview though his mind is blunted against considering things above his station.

    Example: Luke's forbiddance to the Academy, Luke's father is indicated to be the equivalent of a drug dealer lackey

    Eventually Luke is deprived of the comfort of his Mary and Joseph figure's support and comfortable if spartan existence by the despicable boot of the Empire which callously eradicates them simply because it's easier that way.

    Luke's only real understanding of the Outside world and who opens his mind to larger things is cut down soon after as well with Ben Kenobi's ascension. While Leia is present and Han they busy people who can't relate to Luke's situation or provide him with parental support....Luke is forced to sink or swim.

    As he has achieved the Rank of Commander, Destroyed a Grand Moff and his megaweapon, Recovered the Executor's plans, and discovered the Base of Hoth we can guess he did fairly well by any stretch of the imagination come Empire Strikes Back.

    However in Empire Strikes Back we see Luke has become in danger of viewing himself and the world in very Black and white terms. The Empire is Evil, the Rebellion is Good, and men like Vader deserve to Die even as he deserves gals like Leia because he is Good.

    Luke's near brush with death allows him however to see the folly of his abundance of confidence and briefly touch on the spirit world where ben reaches out to him and shows him he is need of a new mentor to show him the Path.

    His prejiduce, impatience, and arrogance are stripped away by the tiny Jedi Master Yoda who shows him that while his Jedi gifts have set him apart from the "common soldiery" to an amazing degree (he destroys single handidly an AT-AT) he is still an insignificant and arrogant fool before the awesome might of the Force/God.

    Much like Moses the Prince is reduced to a shepard or David has an entire city destroyed because of his overconfidence.

    Finally the climax of the Episode where Luke discovers that the holiness of his line, the manifested DESTINY that was his birthright as a Jedi, that everything he has done has been because he is of "Royal Blood and meant for something greater" is not only snatched from him but spat on by the form of Darth Vader.

    Luke has only to look upon the mask to realize that he is the child of the galaxy's secnd most evil man and that same blood which gives him his power has allowed a man to devastate entire civilizations....and stolen his closest friend.

    Come Return of the Jedi Luke has passed through this fire and accepted that the burned (notice his clothes have the color of Ash) remanents of his self image are now to be solely shaped by himself.

    By liberating his father he restores the legacy that should have been his as a divine child of royalty in the spirit and extinguishes the evil haunting him.

    Luke through the movies alone.

    Add in his attempted infiltration of Hell itself (The Dark Side world of Byss-Evil incarnate because it is unquestioning ignorance, hunger, and madness disguised as paradise) to bring it down and his flirting with a new parent figure instead of awesome responsibility as the Keeper of the Grail (the Jedi Knighthood's future) in Joruus C'boath.....

    It's no wonder he is a legend.

    However the children of Luke Skywalker grow up in the grandeur of the legacy rather than the lows. As long as Luke Skywalker lives he is the protector, gaurdian, and teacher that they will never need want for.

    Unless circumstance forces them to abandon their lives they will grow up in priveledge with the very legacy that Luke believed he h
  21. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    no, i'm not accusing you of biting my head off, I got carried away when posting, You'll notice I edited about 2 minutes before you posted.

    As for the belief, here what it says in a bible commentary, at least part of the article I don't feel like typing it all out,

    "archeangel gr. archaggelos, "chief angel", "first Angel," hence, "chief of the angels." the word archaggelos appears in the NT only here and jude 9, were Michael is said to be the Archange. This commentary holds the view that micheal is none other than our lord, Jesus christ(see daniel 10:13; Jude 9; rev. 12:7) This interpretation makes it possible to conceive of Christ's own voice, as the voice of the Archangel, being heard as He decends(see Jude 9.)"

    It's one view not necesserally the only view, and I don't want to get into a debate on what beliefs are the correct view, if you know what I mean, :D(very touchy subject, heats stuff to the melting points).
  22. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Curiously enough Paradise Lost has God having been preparing for Jesus's creation long before his birth in Mary (in effect the Son is seperate from the Lord in a bit of heresy).

    In Paradise Lost it is Jesus who drives thus out the Devil and his minions to the sucking maw of Hell.

    Curiously enough also Jesus in some traditions is treated as an Archangel rather than an actual part of God.

    ***

    As for the immortality of Mara the cup bearer or Guinevere figure does not necessarily show up to be immortal as well however it is curious to note that on the boat to Avalon....

    Where a equivalent might exist for Luke, a Nexus or place in the Aing Ti where life and death coexist.

    Morganna Le Fey is there to heal Arthur's wounds and thus usher him into the new life when the time comes.

    So perhaps, perhaps not.
  23. RNolan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2000
    star 3
    I am truly thankfull St. Patrick is judging us. He knows us Irish best ;)

    Which reminds me of a joke.

    'President Bush is on a state visit to the Vatican. While chatting with the Pope he notices an antique gold and ivory telephone by the Popes desk. He asks the Pope who it is for. His Holiness tells the President it is a hotline to God - but he only uses it rarely because it costs $ 1,000,000 a minute.

    Sometime later President Bush is on a state visit to Ireland. He is having tea with the Archbishop of Dublin, when he notices a telephone identical to the one in the vatican. He asks the Archbishop if it is also a hotline to God. He is told it is. Bush says that it must never be used because if it costs a million from the Vatican it must cost much more from Dublin.
    "No, we use all the time" says the Archbishop, "it costs only 20 pence a minute. You see its a local call ffrom Dublin."

    Yours
  24. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
  25. Knight1192 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2000
    star 6
    Summon remind me of who it was that talked about the Power of Myth. Cambell I believe, though I may well be wrong. Anyway, Charlemagne19 reminds me of him right about now.

    One final note, or better to say question. Is this the same person who went by the nick of Charlemange a while back?
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