The necessity of Luke's immortality (or the Heroes's Journey's end)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Charlemagne19, Aug 31, 2001.

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  1. Knight1192 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2000
    star 6
    World Book Encyclopedia; 1983; World Book, Inc; Volume A; page 561; entry Archangel.

    ARCHANGEL is a chief angel or leader among the angels. In the Bible, nine ranks of heavenly beings have been counted. Angels are the lowest, and archangels are just above. The two highest are cherubim and seraphim. Archangels are mentioned in I Thess 4:16 and Jude 9. There is a special church festival for the archangel Micheal. See also ANGEL; MICHAEL, SAINT.
  2. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    www.encarta.com:

    Archangel



    Archangel, an angel, or heavenly being, of higher rank than angels. In Jewish and Christian literature, the four best known are Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, and Uriel. In Islam, it is believed that four archangels guard the throne of Allah. According to Christian tradition, archangels belong to the eighth of nine choirs of angels. Arranged according to their importance, in descending order, these choirs are seraphim, cherubim, thrones, dominations, virtues, powers, principalities, archangels, and angels.

    Gabriel



    Gabriel, angel of high eminence in Jewish, Christian, and Muslim tradition. He is one of the four most often noted archangels (see Archangel) in Judaism and Christianity, the others being Michael, Raphael, and Uriel. Gabriel is the heavenly messenger who appears in order to reveal God's will. In the Old Testament, Gabriel interprets the prophet's vision of the ram and the he-goat (see Daniel 8:15-26) and explains the prediction of the 70 weeks of years (or 490 years) for the duration of the exile from Jerusalem (see Daniel 9:21-27). In the New Testament, he announces to Zacharias the birth of Zacharias's son (see Luke 1:11-20), who is destined to become known as John the Baptist, and to Mary that she is to be the mother of Jesus Christ (see Luke 1:26-31). Among Muslims, Gabriel is believed to be the spirit who revealed the sacred writings to the Prophet Muhammad.

    Gabriel is the prince of fire and the spirit who presides over thunder and the ripening of fruits. He is an accomplished linguist, having taught Joseph the 70 languages spoken at Babel. In art he is generally represented carrying either a lily, Mary's flower, at the annunciation, or the trumpet he will blow to announce the second coming.

    catholic angel belief systems

    webster:
    Main Entry: Lu·ci·fer
    Pronunciation: 'lü-s&-f&r
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle English, the morning star, a fallen rebel archangel, the Devil, from Old English, from Latin, the morning star, from lucifer light-bearing, from luc-, lux light + -fer -ferous -- more at LIGHT
    Date: before 12th century
    1 -- used as a name of the devil
    2 : the planet Venus when appearing as the morning star
    3 not capitalized : a friction match having as active substances antimony sulfide and potassium chlorate
    - Lu·ci·fe·ri·an /"lü-s&-'fir-E-&n/ adjective


  3. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    http://www.pantheon.org/mythica.html

    Raphael



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The Semitic god of air. Also a Judeo-Christian archangel (see: Raphael.

    Iblis
    by Alan G. Hefner


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Iblis, formerly called Azazel, was a jinn when captured by angels and carried off as their prisoner. He grew up among them and became an archangel. He was cast down when refusing to prostrate before the man Adam. Since he has roamed the earth, his domain, seeking to capture the souls of men.

    Michael



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "Who is like God?" An archangel, the great prince of all angels and leader of the celestial armies. With Gabriel, Michael is the only angel mentioned in the Bible. In the Aggadah, he is seen as the guardian of Israel.

    Gabriel
    by Joshua Ellis


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In Judeo-Christian belief, the archangel of Annunciation, Resurrection, Mercy, Revelation and Death. Also known in Hebrew orthography as Gabri-el. The angel who gave the Annunciation of Christ's birth to the Virgin Mary, and also the angel responsible for blowing the Trump on Judgment Day.
    In Islamic belief, the angel who dictated the Q'uran to Muhammad, and the angel of Truth.

    Some theological thought holds that Gabriel is (as much as angels can be) female, the only one among a male or androgynous Host. The name is derived from the Sumerian root GBR, governor.

    Lucifer



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In medieval Christian theology the name of the chief of angels who rebelled against God and was cast down into Hell. He is identified with Satan.




    Adam.....

    From Sarandib Adam made his way on foot through the forests of India and through the deserts of Arabia to Mecca. He wept frequently when remembering his sinful disobedience, but the archangel Jibril appeared before him to point him in the right direction. When Adam arrived in Mecca, he built the first Ka'ba, instructed by Jibril who also taught him to pray there. Jibril also guided Haiwa towards Mecca, and when Haiwa arrived there, Jibril performed the first wedding ceremony so that they were properly married.

  4. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Yes I am he.

    The 19 is because I lost my old password and...it's a long story.

    I like Charlemagne19 better though
  5. Knight1192 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2000
    star 6
    Means I need to change my watched users list then. And notice how were now discussing dogma? We've always been all over the place in this forum, not just discussing Star Wars literature. I for one like that we do that.
  6. Dev Sibwarra Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 4
    If this the JCC this topic would have turned into a flame war and the admins would end up having to close it. ;)
  7. Corran9 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2000
    star 4
    Why would it have to be that way?
  8. Dev Sibwarra Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 4
    Religious discussion has a way of causing problems over there. ;)
  9. Corran9 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2000
    star 4
    I see...but we're not really discussing religion here.
  10. Keyan_Stele Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 2
    I think that this thread has probably put more consideration into the myth of SW and actual literary considerations than most SW authors do.
    I think perhaps blind luck has allowed for a structure in SW and the EU of SW that allows for all of Charlemagne's allusions, comparisons, and conclusions in this thread. This would lead me to present the argument that anything can be accomplished if you try hard enough, and that includes fitting a half-witted, out of control EU into so many comparisons to great works in Sci-Fi/Fantasy/Myth. SW falls short, just because the epic changes tone and style with each new author or artist and so many of those other works you mentioned can be attributed to far fewer people...we're talking scores less people.
    SW is out of control in the EU. Way out of control. There's so many conflicting ideas that don't even seem to come close to Lucas' vision for SW in the movies which can easily be compared to myth and a hero's journey. I will dispense with examples here; that would take me until tomorrow to list even half of them. I'm sure everyone knows of something in some book that they can think of when I say an idea is out of line with the SW "vision".
    The fact that we constantly meet new characters before the story of existing one's are even close to being resolved is a further sign that many authors' main interest in a SW novel is to establish a notable legacy of their own ideas within SW, even at the cost of the big picture. I'm sure many here will want an example. Well, I'm sorry, but there's too many characters now for me to grab an example and present something 100% factually out of the books without being corrected by a canon nit-picker. I'd like to see authors go on a killing spree and start taking out other authors' characters that they don't like and thin out the ranks a little bit. Right now, it seems like more than Luke is immortal. Some of the most minor characters have survived unscathed for a long time too. (Boba Fett, cough, cough....I'm sorry, but someone with only a few lines across the first 3 films and who "died" in the Sarlac in RotJ is a minor character to me, no matter how cool he or his toys are. But there he is in the books after his "death". And now he's getting even more hype with the prequel rumors and spoilers going around. Let him die. Just one example.)
    That being said, Charlemagne, I think that a lot of what you say makes a heck of a lot of sense for SW. The EU would be doing better under your direction than it would under the editor of the NJO project.
  11. JediLurker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2001
    star 1
    Yes, I agree. However, I do not want Ben ending up killing off Luke or becoming his mortal enemy like Mordred did to Arthur. That would just be wrong. I never liked the ending of King Arthur... it was just too sad. I think it'd be better if Ben turned out different, yes, but essentially with the same good nature and temperament. I also agree with Keyan about how out of control the EU is. All the conflicting arguements, plots and changes in the characters' personalities have made it hard to follow at times. I suppose it wouldn't be fair to hack at other authors' characters and kill them off, but sometimes I think it'd be the best option to get things straightened out. I think Del Rey should've looked more into being accurate and consistant with other authors novels and the way each character was protrayed. The most blaringly obvious example of this is "The Crystal Star" which is, essential, in my opinion, horribly written with the characters acting way out of character. My good faith and trust in Del Rey was somewhat betrayed by that novel... after Waru, life in the Star Wars universe is not the same. As it is, I personally think that we care too much about everything being consistant and right; we read too much into everything. Del Rey, on the otherhand, cares too little, or at least, fails to make a big enough effort to try to be more accurate. If we both met half-way, perhaps we could make a compromise. That, however, is most likely not going to happen. We, as fans, will probably never be happy with all the published results and Del Rey, being how it is, will care more about immediate reaction and ratings than about being true to the original characters and fantasized storyline of how a young, poor farm boy grew up, became a knight, rescued a princess, who in turn, fell in love with a pirate, and they all lived happily ever-after.
  12. Knight1192 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2000
    star 6
    As I recall from posts from the past, Charlemange was among those who posted threads or posts on others threads which would lead to discussions. That's always welcome here no matter who does it, as long as their intelligent discussions and not flame wars or a bit immature. Of course most of us do not go for the immature disscussions. (I'm not even sure if any of us go for them anymore, our admins undoubtedly would do what they could to prevent that.) Nor do we wish to get involved in flame wars.
  13. JediLurker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2001
    star 1
    Really? Too bad. Sometimes flame wars are fun or, at least, somewhat entertaining for those not involved... all in good humor, of course. This is too good a discussion to sink down... to the top.
  14. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    JediLurker, The Crystal Star was not published by Del Ray. Bantam published it. Bantam also published all of the books from The Truce at Bakura to Visions of the Future, as well as Shadows of the Empire and all of the Tales books, as far as I know. I think they also did the Han Solo trilogy. I?m sure they did other books as well but I can?t think of them.

    Anakin Skywalker?s legend has not yet been fully tolled. What we do know is that he goes through many hardships. He also went to the Dark Side and came back. He did not become immortal. His legacy was to help create and support a new government (or ruling entity). Anakin did this util Luke became old enough to carry on his father?s legacy. Luke did continue his father?s legacy, but he did it in his own way. I foresee a similar fate for Luke. I don?t know what will become of his son, Ben, but I do see a need for new government, or at least a large reconstruction of the old government, in the near future (considering what is most likely going to happen in Star by Star). The end of the NJO could be the perfect time for Luke to pass on his family?s legacy to the younger generation and then die, just like his father did with him.

    The legacy of the family is immortal. The people in the family are not.
  15. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Is Anakin dead?

    The question is a relevant one because I think Anakin represents like Luke the possibility of an Eternal Champion.

    I had a fanfic written out that I never did where Anakin Solo explores a Jedi meditation chamber and discovers a crystal mirror set that allows him to discover his true love and destiny...

    In truth Anakin meets with the Spirit of Anakin Skywalker and discovers that his spirit is with Jacen and the Family still because he IS Anakin Skywalker reborn to continue the battle against darkness as he shall always return.

    Wrestling with the Dark Side as an equal.

    Also note Vader is immortal as the passing on of his spirit and empty armor show.

    Still I cannot honestly see Luke passing on the Torch (he survived where his father did not the passage through the Dark Side) because quite simply no one is worthy in the EU of it.

    It is intimately his as isthe immortality which comes with it, he might share it as Ben did with him and Yoda and Anakin but can it truly be called Star Wars if Luke is not there or his legacy overlooking it (His spirit as well) to guide the future generations.

    Kyp or Corran as Lancelot I think has not been properly explored. Corran rebels in I, Jedi but what people do not realize is while he calls Luke a fool....

    It is Corran who discovers (and does not apologize for) that all of his beliefs prove wrong.

    Wise consule that he is he fundementally fails to grasp the Jedi as anything other than warriors and thus is nearly cost of his wife, family, and life.

    Even the end shows while he does not like it he is comming closer to forgiving Kyp.

    His arguement Luke would be dead if Kun is possesing him is wrong as it assumes Kun didn't expect to eventually take over Luke's body in a demonic possesion. Looking at Kun's vision is a look at Luke's most demonic nightmare because it might well yet be reflected in Kyp...

    Exar Kun using his name and face to rape, pillage, and burn across the galaxy as the Anti-Christ to Luke's Christ. Why Kyp might prove more dangerous than people realized because while he has gone through the same "ressurection" as Luke from the dead it was through destruction of death not overcomming it.

    in effect a cheap copy of Luke and Vader's triumph.

    Pity they hesitate to use Kyp as the Keeper of the False Grail, the Judas, the Mordred, the well intentioned Prophet who breaks the Ox harness of Israel for nationalism but thus destroys God's warning and dooms them to a greater burden.

  16. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    ?Still I cannot honestly see Luke passing on the Torch (he survived where his father did not the passage through the Dark Side) because quite simply no one is worthy in the EU of it.?

    Luke?s dabbling in the Dark Side has not made him stronger. He once thought that it had, but now he has realized that he was wrong (with the help of Mara). The Dark Side took something from him that is very apparent now that he has been completely cleansed of its temptations. The Dark Side drained his self-confidence. Now he must question every action that he takes, because he lacks confidence in his own actions.

    Must the legacy of the family be carried out in the same manner that the previous person carried it out? Luke certainly didn?t carry out his family?s legacy the way his father did.

    Weather any one in the EU is worthy to carry on the legacy or not is almost irrelevant. Was Luke worthy to carry on his father?s legacy when the responsibility of carrying that legacy was given to him?

    Anakin saved an entire planet from the rule of an evil capitalist organization that was determined to destroy the way of life of the people of that planet. He became a Jedi. Who knows what kinds of things he did during the clown wars? He succeeded in ridding the galaxy of the Jedi (give or take a few). He helped to create a completely new form of government for that galaxy. He helped to keep that government running smoothly until the day that his son was old enough to take is place. Those are just the things that we know Anakin Skywalker did.

    Luke on the other hand had not yet achieved quite as much as his father had when the legacy was past to him. He had certainly had a very significant impact on the galaxy, but he hadn?t gone through or done half of what his father had gone through or done. Luke saw his Aunt and Uncle dead. He saw Ben die. He destroyed the first Death Stair. He became a Jedi. He brought his father back from the Dark Side. Other than that, he really hadn?t done any thing very significant when the ?Torch? was passed to him. Was Luke worthy to receive the ?Torch? that was passed to him by his father? I don?t think so.

    Has Luke risen to the occasion? Yes, and he has surpassed even his father (as far as we know). What is to stop someone of the younger generation to also rise to the occasion, and let Luke?s body and sprite rest in peace like Anakin Skywalker?
  17. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    I disagree heartily Luke's jaunt into the Dark Side has not been fufilling.

    The Descent into Hell was certainly a mistake on our Prometheus figure/Lightbringer Luke's part because the Devil/Palpatine honestly had no lost truths in his possesion nor could allowing him to rend Luke's soul section by section accomplish any good.

    However we cannot judge destiny because that same closeness of his fathers allowed him to destroy Palpatine once and for all and gave him the Dark Side secrets needed to eradicate the Emperor's elite Dark Side corps.

    Luke by suffering also understands by Timothy Zahn the force is a tool of enlightment instead of a hydrospanner....whether or not he would have gleaned that wisdom without a period of fault and sin is debatable.

    Boba Fett's appeal I think I can figure out not just because of appeal as a cool toy but something much deeper. Boba Fett representated in Lucas's vision is nothing less than the weight of Han's sins and the Cold, Unfeeling, and horrofic scales of Justice for Han Solo. The Bounty Hunter who comes to a town looking for the reformed Bank Robber, The Hangman who slays the justified killer along with the unjustified, The Blind Lady. The Sheriff of Nottingham is a corrupt figure in most legends so not appropriate but a Sheriff under a corrupt King honestly trying to capture Robin Hood as an interpretation is more valid.

    Han Solo cannot escape the fact that he has sold spice for slavers, murderers, and ignored the struggle against evil so Boba Fett's constant appearence in Han Solo's life is represenative of nothing less than Boba serving as Han Solo's personal Grim Reaper. The "period in Purgatory" Han went through allowed Han to banish Boba Fett because Han served well his time for his sins and it is appropriate an act of innocent luck destroyed such an omnious figure.

    Quite Simply Boba Fett as the Executioner could not harm the Han that emerged.

    The return of Boba Fett marks an appearence of something weighing heavily on Han's concience in Last Man Standing is represenative of Fett the Justice Seeker waiting even decades later for Han like the omnious Fallen Angel he is for Han to step out of the light (perhaps public light) protecting him. Though Boba Fett's appearences are all very weak compared to his previous efforts in things such as Dark Empire Han's revisiting of Nar Shadda is symbolic of retouching all his horrors anew.

    In NJO Boba Fett's return would be symbolically appropriate because of Han's disruption of his union with Leia and Family. Thus Boba Fett could slay Han who could not escape the weight of his sins.

    Boba Fett's fade into obscurity works as well....as immortal as Luke because he is Han's taunting spectre.

    It's no coinicdence Boba Fett like the executioners of old have no visible faces but are hooded. They're lives cannot be taken vengence on and they are incarnations of justice.

    "A executioner cannot commit murder."

    As for Vader's accomplishments it is too soon to tell what young Anakin will do but his main accomplishment is winning his freedom in a direct allusion to Ben Herr so he can journey on his new life as a Christian/Jedi.

    However we should note the very real presence of Anakin and Luke as the Fisher King/Percieval. The Fisher King is of an illustrious lineage (The Force/Joseph of Arimathea) whose nephew/son rescues him from oathbreaking and restores the Grail.

    Heck like Percieval Luke was born in the wild an innocent but service to a higher cause makes him a failure to his destiny until he regains it and suceeds in his quest.
  18. Grand Admiral Reese Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 1, 1999
    star 6
    Lord of the Rings spoilery stuff below.
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    Frodo Baggins
    Bilbo Baggins


    Ah, there you're wrong. Neither Bilbo nor Frodo achieved immortality(nor did Samwise). Mortals cannot abide long in the Deathless Realm. THey wither and die faster than the Mortal Lands. And those few granted immortality were never again allowed to touch mortal soil, or their years would catch up to them in an instant. THey simply got a reprive from their pain, for a little while. Even symbolically neither Bilbo nor Frodo became immortal in the Shire, though Sam did. Frodo was forgotten even before he left, except by his closest friends. Bilbo dismissed as an old madman long, long before his departure. Sam, on the other hand got immortality as the longest serving, most beloved Mayor of all time.
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  19. PrinceXizor Former TF.N Foreign Book Cover Staff

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 2001
    star 5
    I agree on the 'spiritual' immortality, but are you sure Frodo, Bilbo and Sam weren't granted immortality on Valinor ? I think it's left open. Personally, I prefer to think they weren't, but I think you can see the other way around, too...
  20. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    ?Boba Fett's fade into obscurity works as well....as immortal as Luke because he is Han's taunting specter.?

    Who is Boba Fett? I believe he is the dread-pirate Roberts of the GFFA (This is not my original idea, I don?t recall who?s it was, but I still believe it). When one Boba Fett dies, or simply wants to retire, he passes on the name, and all that goes with it, to someone else. All of the stories that we know about Boba Fett are, in my opinion, simply rumors spread through out the GFFA, rumors that are perpetuated by Boba Fett to hide his true identity. If this theory is true, than Boba Fett is indeed immortal. However, the individual people who make up Boba Fett are mortal.

    Anakin was not immortal (considering that we haven?t seen him since The Truce at Bakura). Luke is also not immortal, but the legacy of Skywalker will live forever. In this sense, Luke is mortal wile Skywalker is immortal.
  21. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    In the Lord of the Rings I was under the impression that Frodo and Bilbo were both granted passage on the Elven boats with Arwen's place being given to the 9 fingered hero as they journeyed to the Lands beyond.

    Frodo for his sacrafice was rewarded with the same ascension Mary the Mother of God and Elijah were.

    Sparing the pain of death to them.

    This of course makes one wonder about Hobbits because in the Simarillon it is revealed that humans are actually blessed above elves because they immediately journey to the Blessed Realm of the Lord thanks to Death while Elves who perish must wait in the terrible Halls of Eternity til judgement day.
  22. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    Did I also mention that I think that Leia has also been handed the legacy of the Skywalker? She too helped to create and support a new government.

    As opposed to Luke?s many physical trials, Leia had mostly mental trials. She watched he home planet die. Twice her own father tortured her. The least of her great mental trials was to become a great diplomat.

    Was she worthy of her father?s legacy when it was handed to her and her brother? No, but like her brother she has risen to meat it, and like her brother, she has surpassed even her father. She not only helped to create and sustain a new government, but also ascended to the head of that government; something her father never accomplished.

    Does Leia not deserve the same form of immortality that was granted to her father through his offspring?
  23. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    I disagree.

    Leia has suceeded in restoring the galaxy to it's rightful government but the Princess has her king/consort in Han and for a great many years (Leia was president for how long?) rulership.

    The authors could have chosen leia for spiritual trials but instead she serves as the Eowyn/Arwen of the series in the warrior who bears the true blood of the Kings but does not seek the grail; only peace and prosperity for the land.

    Leia simply put is "too much of this world, this time" to actually become immortal like Luke.

    At some point it might have been possible for the Princess to have gone through all the trials of Luke and become a Jedi Master but the authors have made an unconcious decision to make her the Gondor King instead of the Elrond.

    Wise, Beautiful (Carrie Fisher is honestly a very lovely woman), Regal, and a Genius she nevertheless serves the Force as a minion and not an avatar of it.

    It's the difference between the King of the Land who IS the Land and a Knight who serves it.

    Both under vader inherited their respective kingdoms with Luke having the next world while Leia repairing this and getting a true love heart in Han.

    Still forgive me if with all of Leia's blessings Luke got the bigger end of the stick.
  24. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    ?Still forgive me if with all of Leia's blessings Luke got the bigger end of the stick.?

    Okay, I will concede that point. However, I still believe that she deserves a great amount of credit and respect for her accomplishments. She achieved something that her father always wanted to do but never could.

    ?It's the difference between the King of the Land who IS the Land and a Knight who serves it.?

    That statement could easily describe both Luke?s role, as well as Leia?s. If you mean the Force to be the land than Luke was indeed be the ?King of the Land who is the land?, and Leia was the ?King who serves it?. However, if you consider the government to be the land, than the situation is, quite obviously, reversed. Leia would be the ?King of the Land who is the land?, while Luke would be the ?King who serves it?.

    Granted, Being the King of the Force who is the Force is certainly nobler than being the King of the government who is the government, but both entities have a lot of power, and to become master of either one is to deserve great respect.
  25. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Quite agreed.

    Leia healed the galaxy's body and Luke it's spirit.

    I'm simply suggesting their immortality will be different.

    Mythically speaking Leia's line will continue on while Luke's is probably destined for spiritual service.

    Perhaps worse, short and interesting lives.

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