The necessity of Luke's immortality (or the Heroes's Journey's end)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Charlemagne19, Aug 31, 2001.

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  1. Corran9 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2000
    star 4
    I read once that there are only 9 stories to tell. SW happens to tell the most popular ones well. If we follow the formula correctly, Kyp would probally have fallen by now. He was given a second chance after doing a terrible deed, and instead of learning from it he is now leaning towards to brink of disaster. There are only 2 perscribed roads for Kyps character. One would have him live the rest of his life trying to redeem himself in the eyes of everyone. He would do this by learning from his mistakes and not going to extremes. The second would have him go back to the "do what it take" attitude. I think there are, of course, variations but they could fall roughly into the 2 senarios. The way I see it, he's now leaning towards the latter. I think they'll have him do something drastic to kill the Vong. Some will love his action, others including the Jedi, will probally disaprove.
  2. Knight1192 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2000
    star 6
    Bringing up Anakin Skywalker, I think we can find a bit of a twisted Arthurian tale there. And I do mean twisted due to the fact that it becomes confusing.

    Anakin is Arthur, both as Anakin Skywalker and as Darth Vader. As Anakin Skywalker, he is also Lancelot.

    Palpatine becomes a dark Merlin as well as Sir Modred.

    Shmi becomes both Igraine and Sir Ector.

    Qui-Gon is Merlin, Sir Ector, and the sword in the stone.

    Obi-Wan is merely Merlin.

    Padme is Qwynevere, Queen Margawse, and Princess Elaine.

    Luke becomes Arthur, Sir Modred, Sir Lancelot, Sir Galahad, and Sir Bedivere.

    Excalibur is represented by the Force (both light and dark sides) and a lightsaber.

    The Force also becomes Qwynevere and the Holy Grail(the light side only), Merlin, and King Uther.

    We could easily go into what Arthurian figures the others represent, but lets not make things more difficult to follow than they already are. So lets begin with my twisted Arthurian legend, Anakin Skywalker style.

    Of course we have an immaculate conception, according to TPM, of Anakin. The speculation is that it was the will of the Force that Shmi concieve Anakin. Again, I say this is speculation because we don't truely know for certain. Perhaps that is what happened, or perhaps Shmi was drugged so as to be unable to recall how the conception actually takes place. But for this tale's purpose, will say that the father was the Force. So Merlin (the Force) disguises King Uther Pendragon (the Force, later Anakin) as the Duke of Tintagil so that he may lie with Igraine (Shmi, later Padme), whom he covets.

    Uther and Igraine concieve a son, Arthur (Anakin Skywalker). Yet because of his deal with Merlin, the two are not able to care for their son as they may wish. Merlin takes the babe and places him in the care of Sir Ector (Shmi) until the day comes when he shall rise to the throne.

    The day comes when Ector brings both his son Sir Kay (SW character unknown, perhaps it's Shmi or Padme, or even Anakin) and Arthur to a tournament proclaimed for New Year's Day. Kay finds his sword is missing at the tournament site and begs Arthur to return to their lodging and fetch it. Unable to get in, Arthur remembers seeing a sword in a stone in the church yard and goes to get it. He effortlessly takes the sword in the stone (Qui-Gon) and brings it to Kay. Kay claims he drew it, but Ector knows the truth of who Arthur is and who the sword was meant for. Ector (Qui-Gon) tells Arthur (Anakin) who he is.

    Many of the kings (the Jedi Council) within Arthur's kingdom refuse to accept Arthur as the choosen succesor (the Choosen One) to Uther (here Uther is actually the prophecy of the Choosen One). It is Merlin (Qui-Gon) who tells them that Arthur (Anakin) is the rightful king, and that he is destined for greatness. Merlin then begins instructing Arthur.

    Arthur defeats the rebellious kings and proves himself to be the true king. But after a time, while riding through the forest one day, Arthur comes across King Pellinore (Darth Maul). The two fight, and Pellinore manages to break the sword Arthur had withdrawn from the stone within the churchyard (Qui-Gon). It is due to Merlin that Pellinore does not kill Arthur. Merlin (Obi-Wan) brings Arthur to a nearby lake where the Lady of the Lake (SW character or refernce unknown, could be the Jedi Council, the Force, or Obi-Wan. Most likely Obi-Wan) presents Arthur (Anakin) with a better sword, Excalibur (both training in the light side of the Force and a lightsaber).

    Prior to all this, Arthur has unknowingly slept with his own aunt, Queen Margawse (Padme). The result is the conception of Modred (Luke). After it, Arthur weds Qwynevere (Padme).

    Until the treachery of Nyneve (SW character uncertain based on where one looks, the Jedi Purge and turning of Anakin makes it Palpatine. Vader is also Nyneve, both when he kills Obi-Wan and when he kills Palpatine), Merlin (Obi-wan. After the turning of Anakin, Palpatine) continues to be a guiding force to Arthur (Anakin, and later Luke). He helps mold Arthur into a just k
  3. Knight1192 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2000
    star 6
    And now, Part II

    While seeking adventure after a fest, Lancelot (Anakin) ends up festing with King Pelles (essentially, the Naboo. However, this could also be Qui-Gon, through whom Anakin first meets with Padme). During the fest, he observes an intresting scene. A scene of which he gets his first ever sight of the Holy Grail (Anakin's introduction to the Force thanks to Qui-Gon). Pelles is determined that Lancelot should be with his daughter Elaine (Padme). Lancelot is put under a spell (Anakin's love for Padme) and goes to Elaine, believeing she is Qwynevere. They concieve a son, who will be knighted Sir Galahad (Luke) when he is old enough. It will be Galahad who finally recovers the Holy Grail (the light side of the Force returned to the fore).

    Eventually, Modred (Luke, also the Alliance) begins stirring up trouble for Arthur (Vader, also Palpatine and the Empire). He proves Lancelot (the Jedi order) and Qwynevere (the light side) are having an affair. Lancelot manages to escape while Qwynevere (the light side) is convicted of treason and adultery, and sentenced to be burnt at the stake the Jedi Purge, which nearly succeded in snuffing out the light side). Lancelot (Luke), learns of this and rescues Qynevere (the light side).

    While Arthur (the Empire) and Lancelot (the Alliance) wage war with one another, Modred attempts to take Arthur's throne. Arthur (Vader) learns of Modred's treason and rushes back to deal with him. Modred (Luke) leads his forces into battle with Arthur's (Vader) forces. As the two opposing forces do battle Arthur (both Luke and Vader) and Modred (again, both Luke and Vader) meet in mortal combat. Arthur (Luke) manages to kill Modred (Vader). Yet Modred (Palpatine) deals Arthur (Anakin) a mortal blow. Sir Lucas and Sir Bedivere (Luke) move Arthur from the battlefield. Sir Lucas dies from wounds he recieved in battle and Arthur (both Anakin and Vader), knowning he is about to follow his loyal knight, commands Sir Bedivere (Luke) to throw Excalibur into a nearby lake. After twice failing to do as ordered, Bedivere (both Luke and Anakin) finally casts Excalibur (Luke's lightsaber) into the lake. He returns and tells Arthur the deed is done. Arthur dies shortly there after.

    (It should be noted that Luke is the Modred who kills Vader in the guise of Arthur. At the same time he is also playing Bedivere as here Excalibur is represented by returning Anakin from the dark side. When Anakin returns, Vader dies. Thus Luke as Modred kills Vader as Arthur. And seeing what he has done to his father and banishing his anger causes Vader as Arthur to kill Luke's Modred. Luke is Bedivere when he casts his lightsaber, which is Excalibur, aside and then causes Anakin to purge himself of Vader, thus killing Vader.

    Also, Luke becomes Arthur's throne when he begs Vader to save him from Palpatine, who is now Mordred. Anakin Skywalker returns after seeing what Palpatine has done to both him and his son. Anakin, who is now Arthur, kills Palpatine's Modred, but suffers a mortal blow thanks to him. By having Luke act as Bedivere, Anakin has him remove his mask, which is now Excalibur. The removal of the mask is the equal of Excalibur being cast into the lake and returned to the Lady of the Lake. In this case, the Lady of the Lake is also a mark of Anakin's return to the light side and of his becoming one with the Force.)

    And there you have it, my twisted Arthurian tale, Star Wars style. Yes, some things may need further explination as they do not exactly happen this way in the movies and novels. Remember, part of it is how you look at it. For example, Anakin and Padme are supposed to get married. Prior to that, neither is related. Nor does love make Anakin think Padme is anyone but Padme/Amidala. He knows who it is he's in love with. And Luke is not a bastard child as Galahad is. But it is the context which they fit into the Arthurian tale that makes things seem wrong. Lancelot did not know who Galahad was when he first met him, just as Vader did not know he was flying against his own son during the Battle
  4. Knight1192 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2000
    star 6
    Hey, got lucky. No posts between those last two. So folks don't have to say, okay, where's Part II.
  5. Knight1192 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2000
    star 6
    Let's see if we can't keep this one running.
  6. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    A good anaylsis if it was perhaps reaching in a place or two.

  7. Knight1192 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2000
    star 6
    Reaching nothing. It's way out there and confusing if you ask me. And I posted the damn thing. Anyway, I just got done adding it to my website. If I get anyone visit the site, they'll possibly be sratching their heads over that one.
  8. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    How about the Lord of the Rings and Star Wars now?
  9. Anakin SkySolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Here's one little related LotR comment, anyway...

    First of all, Frodo, Bilbo and later Sam do NOT become immortal by going to Valinor (the Uttermost West). Tolkien deliberately left the fate of the Hobbits who went to the Grey Havens vague, so that their fates could seem Arthurian, when in fact they were not. Indeed, to quote Tolkien, in his mythos "the return of Arthur would be quite impossible, a vain imagining." That's because the fates of the Children of Illuvatar--immortal Elves and mortal Men, including Hobbits--can only be changed by Illuvatar (God), not by the Lords of the West, the Valar. And Illuvatar has sundered the fates of Elves from those of Men since before Earth was made.

    Tolkien confirms that Frodo, Bilbo, and Sam remain mortal in his letters. In one draft letter (printed in Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien and in Morgoth's Ring), he says:

    Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him--if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to 'pass away: no mortal could, or can abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and greatness, spent still in Time amidst the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred', the Earth unspoiled by evil.

    On your other parallels...Arthur is someone who goes to Avalon to heal (as Frodo goes to Avalonne). Legend has it that he will return when the people of Britain need him yet again. Merlin is another character who, if he is supposed to return, would come back from a long absence. Jesus fulfills a similar (though hardly identical) role--crucified ih the first century, he is prophecized to "come again."

    I am not aware of any legends of return involving St. Patrick, and I don't know enough about Buddha. So I'm a little skeptical about the applicability of your parallels to Luke Skywalker, who, as far as I know, has never gone through a period where he was removed from the world by death or near-mortal wounds.

    As for mythological types:

    In LotR, I think Frodo's story is vaguely similar to Luke's, save that Frodo doesn't overcome "the Dark Side" and toss the Ring into Mount Doom (essentially an impossible task for ANY mortal), and Frodo never plays a role similar to Luke's after his accomplishes his mission (with Gollum's inadvertent help). For Frodo to take Luke's kind of post-RotJ role would require that he become a wizard like Gandalf (the closest equivalent to Obi-Wan) or a wise Eldar like Elrond or Galadriel. Tolkien never provides for a transition between the young, "peasant" hero and the elder wise man or magician like Lucas does in Star Wars. The closest parallel to Elrond or Galadriel is probably Yoda. And Palpatine, as an incarnation of evil, certainly allows for parallels with Sauron. Luke also shares characteristics with Aragorn (and obviously Arthur), the descendant of former kings and the king who returns when his lands need him most.

    That's all for now...
  10. Gandalf the Grey Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2000
    star 6
    Frodo and Bilbo were not the first mortals to be welcomed into the Blessed Realm. Tuor was permitted to go to the Blessed Realm, and his fate was joined to that of the Noldor. He has effectively become an elf as a reward for his trials and labors.

    Conversely, Luthien's immortality was stripped away from her when she chose to remain with Beren, and she became human. Indeed, she even died as a human, and so is the only ?Elf? ever to truly die and leave the world.
  11. Anakin SkySolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Gandolf--

    Yes, Tuor was accepted in the Blessed Realm. However, with regard to that, The Silmarillion (end of Chapter 23) states:

    But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and he was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.

    In other words, Tuor was the sole exception for Men (if the songs of after-days reflect the actual truth). And Luthien was the sole exception for Elves (though she was actually half-Elf, half-Maia), the only one of the elder race whose fate joined those of the younger. Her lover, Beren, was unusual among mortal men for having died twice. But he was still counted among men.

    All other "exceptions" (Earendil, Elwing, Elrond, Elros, Arwen, the sons of Elrond) have the blood of both races. For the half-Elven alone, the Valar can decide to which kindred they belong (usually with input from the half-Elves).

    Frodo and his friends were not exceptions. Being accepted into the Blessed Realm is not equivalent to a grant of immortality, as Tolkien himself makes clear.
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