The needed: The Military Blunders, Inaccuracies, and "That's Impossible! Even for a computer" thread

Let it never be said that Charlemagne19 wasn't willing to extend an olive branch to a group that has been somewhat dismissive of him and vice versa. It occurs to me that there's fairly strong feelings on the issue of military logistics, tactics, and the machinery naming conventions of the Star Wars universe. To that end, this thread is a discussion thread where everyone not only presents their complaints but also possible retcons to fix it or simple things that can be incorporated to handle it. There's already plenty of threads on this subject but they've been somewhat mired in inaccurate or outdated information (I will confess to being guilty of this) and occasionally emotions getting the better of anyone.

The rules to said thread are...

* There will be no indication that anyone is themselves personally foolish, stupid, or possessed of any feelings whatsoever. Only their 'facts' and counterfacts will be credible. Anyone who does so is not credible as a poster and even if he's Einstein or Rommel, he should not be treated as a legitimate participant. Privately, you're welcome to think the person is a Flat-Earth believer who is wearing tinfoil on your head but that's not a relation.

* Canon is not something that is necessarily absolute as a way of dismissing someone else's arguement but when the latest source is posted and not retconned, it is necessary for a subject to come up with a suitable "fix" that is in universe or simply declare the path of least resistance with only the absolute most BONE HEADED factors being summarily dismissed as beyond the pale.

The rating system I suggest is.

Black Mistakes- Black Mistakes are those that are things that are capable of being fixed with a tidy retcon. Bevel Lemisk was the designer of the Death Star which he did while working for the Geonosians.

Red Mistakes- Red Mistakes are mistakes that require essentially an older source to be disregarded because the information is now inaccurate. That 'Super Class' Star Destroyers are actually termed Super and in fact are actually Executor class

Blue Mistakes- Are mistakes that stretch credubility even in the context of the universe but have been essentially treated as completely normal. A seemingly tiny group of primitive tribesmen wielding spears and bows are able to defeat an advanced military army that is described as an entire legion of their finest troops

Yellow Mistakes- are mistakes that cannot simply be reconcilled at all and you simply have to acknowledge them as something that totally shatters your disbelief in star wars.

* A proposal for what is a "mistake" in the context of the Star Wars universe is to best handle it.

Name of the Problem:
Description of the Problem:
Rating of the Problem
Any Fix, if possible, you suggest
Canon sources where this problem is continued

* Rebuttals to the proposal should include

Name of Post you're Rebuttaling
Name of the Poster you're rebuttaling
Italicized text of the relevant passage

If possible, also include whether you think the problem is something that you feel needs more or less explanation to work in the context of the Star Wars universe.

* Please no repetition of points unless you feel there is a misunderstanding of your initial points, otherwise just point them back to the page of which you did.

* Please note that the "feel" of Star Wars is not an issue and whether or not Vader's sacrifice or whatnot is cheapened, it's not capable of being refuted or validated. Only legitimate Star Wars numbers and logic is at discussion here.

* While you may feel passionately about the subject, given Star Wars is ficitional...there's largely no right and wrong since the physics/realities of Star Wars varies tremendously in people's head...even if we fill in the gaps.

 

Name of the Problem:

Commander (?) Pellaeon's retreat from the Battle of Endor while a Grand Admiral, a Admiral, and Captains are located at the battle.

Description of the Problem: In the original depiction of the Battle of Endor, Timothy Zhan was operating under the assumption that Admiral Piett of the Star Destroyer Executor was in charge of the Battle of Endor and the command's ship's destruction resulted in seemingly the command of the operation reverting to the next senior officer in the battle....which would be Pellaeon in the Chimera.

In the novel Heir to the Empire, this all made perfect sense but since then canon sources have added to the myth of the story. Grand Admiral Teshik and two other Grand Admirals not only survived the battle but Teshik participated in the conflict. Admiral Harrsk, legitimately refused to obey an order from a Captain (black text level problem: Pellaeon wasn't even a Captain if he was an XO but would become Captain as soon as he assumed command) and it can't be an order whatsoever when he was clearly holding higher rank and Teshik would automatically be able to assume command of the battle (though Naval discipline holds that you can't really order a Captain on his own ship...even a senior officer has to phrase orders as suggestions).

The idea of Captain Pellaeon giving an order to higher ups and retreating is such a blatant disregard of military protocol that it's difficult to imagine that he wasn't shot in the REAL world let alone the draconian Imperial military.

Rating of the Problem: Black

Any Fix, if possible, you suggest: The suggestion, though an awkward one, is that Captain Pellaeon's order was an illegal one at the time and furthermore should have resulted in crimminal charges at the time for breaking the chain of command plus possibly costing the Empire the 'victory.' Given only two star destroyers were captured and four destroyed (plus the Executor and Death Star) this seems to be a fairly objective complaint. It also may explain some fairly clear loathing that many officers have forwarded towards Pellaeon at various times.

Pellaeon, a man who has ever shown himself to be a capable officer, is also one that has also shown a remarkably independent streak in many respects as well. His going along with Admiral Daala's treason, his joining a warlord group over the remnants of the mainstream Empire, and also his eventual rise to Grand Admiral of the Empire through ordering of the Empire's surrender shows a more flexible mind than most credit him with...especially given his appearence as the "Watson" to Thrawn or the false impression of a normal naval officer. Given his advanced age and lack of promotion, including one period of being sent back for 're-education', it's a wonder he wasn't executed far earlier.

What saved Pellaeon's life after the Battle of Endor and possibly got him promoted, I believe, was the utter corruption of the Empire itself. The sudden treason of several Grand Admirals and Admiral Drommel guarding Coruscant almost IMMEDIATELY after the Emperor's death created a great deal of instability that overshadowed his criminal action. I imagine that Isard, possibly Thrawn, or Pestage gave Pellaeon a full pardon for his actions in exchange for some guarantee of silence or backing up their story that the Death Star's destruction was a glorious sacrifice of the Emperor rather than an embarrassing military blunder.

Nevertheless, it's incidents like this that go a long way to explaining the Empire's defeat the Rebellion and the utter incompetence of their military.

Canon sources where this problem is continued: Star Wars Insider: Grand Admiral Articles, Admiral Harrsk's history, HTTE

 

Name of the Problem:

The defeat of the Imperial Legion on Endor.

Description of the Problem:

The ground battle of Endor was supposed to be a ground assault by a small rebel strike team (the future Katarrn's Commandoes as lead by General Han Solo) accompanied by Jedi Knight Luke Skywalker, Chewbacca (anyone know his rank?), Senator Organa, and a pair of droids. This article will not attempt to address the curiosity of the politically valuable Senator Organa's accompanying General Solo on the mission, the even more incredulous value of C-3PO, why Han Solo of all people is believed to have enough military experience to lead this team, and several other minor questions but instead will focus solely on the attack itself. (blue text explanation that doesn't really satisfy me: Princess Leia decided to go on the mission and as second in command of the Rebellion would not be denied or her choice of accompaniment).

As it has been documented in the movies, the curiously developed but nevertheless stone-weapon using Ewolks (who possess relatively well engineered weaponry despite having not discovered metal working) are recruited by the team to aid in their assault upon the Imperial forces in Endor. Their entire attack depends on the element of surprise and it is revealed later that the Emperor intended this to be a trap all along. The garrison that was defending the Death Star (according to the routinely believed to be unreliable WEG- A Imperial garrison is 2000 soldiers roughly) was overstocked with an elite Imperial Legion.

Attacking at a secret entrance though, the Ewolks successfully freed their companions who fought off the Imperial forces therein and proceeded to destroy the Imperial Shield Generator.

Rating of the Problem:

Quite bluntly, I'm unsatisfied with my own fix as it implies that the Empire is a great deal more incompetent than we ever could have imagined in battle. Nevertheless, in lieu of other data, I'm forced to conclude it's the only thing I can think of.

Any Fix, if possible, you suggest:

My only possible solution that I can think of is a multitude of minor things that ultimately culminated in the worst defeat in Imperial history. The stupidity and lack of Imperial discipline necessary though leaves a sore taste in my mouth.

The first, seems to be canon, in that the Ewolks knew of a secret entrance into the Imperial Shield Generator system. Either this was the "real" entrance that the Emperor intended to hide from the Rebels to further his trap that was spotted by the Ewolks (a typical case of Imperial overplanning) or this was in fact just the equivalent of a thermal exhaust port and a service station that was unimportant enough to defend heavily.

My assumption is the Empire expected a large scale assault (I am almost assuming the flaws of the first Death Star verbatim here) and thus figured their defenses around it. Dismissive of a commando group, the Imperials managed to apprehend the Rebel team without even informing his superiors of his capture. From that point on, the Ewolk attack freed them as the commander proceeded to STILL not inform his superiors out of fear that he would be executed or otherwise severely punished for losing to a detachment of midget Ursidae

The legion was thus never deployed and died without even knowing they were under attack. It's an amazing pity that either AT-STs were a lot more poorly built or the wood of endor has qualities we don't know about

Canon sources where this problem is continued: Return of the Jedi, Heir to the Empire

 

For Pellaeon, the easiest fix is to assume that while by position the second-most-senior officer aboard Chimaera, and while in his own estimation not a capable fleet commander, he held a senior substantive rank, either Vice-Admrial, Rear-Admiral or Commander. This would be supported implicitly if (and it's still if) there's any evidence that Covell's promotion to General came from Pellaeon.

Alternatively, the Chimaera's previous commander could have been a senior Admiral.

Where does it say that Harrsk "legitimately" refused, out of interest?

For Endor, my fix is that the Imperial forces deployed were intended primarily to take out the Rebels inside the bunker. In this, they succeeded admirably. But they were suddenly attacked, outside the bunker, by enemies which they couldn't distinguish from the surrounding terrain, plus additional Rebel forces including two Z-95s, and latterly at least one comandeered AT-ST (I have a vague idea I glanced recently at some RPG material recently which identified a second one)...

During the chaos, the Rebels got lucky, and took advantage of the chaos to rejoin the fight. Imperial stormtroopers and infantry thus found themselves in terrain they weren't trained to fight in, faced with the Katarn comandos, a large force of native irregulars who their sensors couldn't detect, total Rebel air superiority, and finally, captured armour.

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Artoo's jamming signal in New Rebellion I've tried to forget. IG's takeover could be realisitic; we've seen binary loadlifters, fire hydrants and freight lifts have some semblance of droid intell, and one droid can talk to another in ways we can't connect. But the jamming signal . . .

 

McEwok isn't talking about jamming. He means that the stormtrooper's HUDs aren't programmed to pick up Ewoks as hostiles. They'd be roped in with wildlife, and probably lack targeting information, etc, so the stormies have a hard time seeing them and shooting them. It's probably the best Endor theory I've heard yet.

 

Ewoks are also physically difficult to target:
1) Ewoks are roughly 1 meter tall, give or take.
2) Ewok coloration and clothing, being mixes of black, grey, white, and brown, tends to break up outlines and blend in with vegitation.
3) Ewoks travel in unusual fashions, and are semi arboreal.
4) Ewoks are native to Endor, and have evolved to blend in and evade preditors on Endor. They have also likely learned to use the terrain to their advantage, creating traps to compete with larger animals. (There are a number of large predators on Endor, from the Gorax, to various large spiders, mantigrue, others seen in the two Ewok movies and Galaxies)

 

There are a few problems with the Endor explanation. Firstly only one Grand Admiral, Teshik, stuck around. The other two got off the Death Star and fled. While it was reported that Teshik performed admirably, his ship was knocked out of commission. Harrsk by most opinions saw the battle was lost and commandered as much of the fleet as he could and fled to carve out his own territory. Let's also not forget the effect of the Emperor's death had on the fleet. The entire fleet would have been shaken and demoralized. The Death Star had been destroyed, the Emperor and Lord Vader were presumed dead, it was probably unknown to the ship commanders whether any other Grand Admirals besides Teshik survived, the elite legion of troops on Endor had been defeated by a small Rebel strike team, the Executor had been destroyed by inferior ships, numerous other Star Destroyers were lost, and the Rebels still had the majority of their fleet intact and engaging the Imperials with tactics the Imperial commanders had neither considered nor prepared for. I'd say the will to fight was gone and most commanders were looking for an excuse to retreat. Pellaeon was simply the first to summon the courage to call for one.

 

Charlemagne -- you're neglecting the two most important reasons Princess Leia was allowed to go along on the Endor mission other than her being the second in command of the Alliance:

1) She was the only member of the strike team with intimate knowledge of the workings of the Death Star machinery, in case they ran across something in the bunker which had more of a direct connection to the Death Star than merely a shield generator. (Source: To Take the Tarkin)

2) Leia Organa was performing commando missions with Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Chewbacca and Lando Calrissian for nearly every week of the three years between ANH and ESB. (Source: Marvel comics, Shadows of the Empire and Return of the Jedi (Jabba's Palace))

EDIT:

Worse, the Force Coordination the Emperor was performing was gone which would have gone WAY beyond "shaken" and/or "demoralized"...

 

There are a few problems with the Endor explanation. Firstly only one Grand Admiral, Teshik, stuck around. The other two got off the Death Star and fled. While it was reported that Teshik performed admirably, his ship was knocked out of commission. Harrsk by most opinions saw the battle was lost and commandered as much of the fleet as he could and fled to carve out his own territory.

It's been implied both were also there when the order was given to retreat. Though Teshik might have been unable to flee or all communication locked out from his vessel I think.

 

Huh, where did it say Takel and Makati stuck around? From their bios descritption I gathered they both looked around at the mess and decided to book it.

 

I'm not referring to those two Grand Admirals, I'm referring to Harrsk and Teshik.

Honestly, I never really intended to argue they did.

I believe the Insider more or less stated he was there through it all.

 

Well Harrsk as I recall independently decided to make a break for it before Pellaeon decided the battle was lost. Considering he took as much of the fleet with him as possible to set up his own mini-Empire doesn't speak highly of the man's devotion to duty.

Edit: Not to mention that if we go by Darksaber the man was a petty, shortsighted jerk.

 

Damnit, I know I read it in some official source where he said something akin to not taking orders from a Captain but your point is in the words of Jar Jar "well said."

 

I wouldn't sweat finding any sources. As we all know now the case of Harrsk is quite literally a dead issue.

 

Well put.

Pellaeon could have been an naval group commmander (maybe he was Declann's subordinate?) and so had the technical authority to order a retreat if the two other Grand Admirals and Harrsk ran away, while they couldn't communicate with Teshik. Though that would require that Pellaeon got bumped down post Endor for his role in the rout.

As for the elite legion on Endor, would those Force Commander and Galactic Battlegrounds missions count as canon?

 

Name of the Problem:

Clonetrooper Tactics

Description of the Problem:

They are basically nonexistant. They walk slowly into battle in Napoleonic style, not seeking cover, sprinting, or crouching. When performing recon (eg Hoghnor, Nelvaan, Yavin 4) they wander around with their guns pointedwhere ever rather then in an effective formation. Aren't these guys suppossed to be the best military force ever? So why are they making mistakes boot camp recruits laugh at?

Rating of the Problem:

Biggest millitary mistake in all of SW.

Any Fix, if possible, you suggest:

Blame it on the Jedi thinking that is how it should be done, compared to how the professional military oficers did it. Point ot difference in tactics between Jedi led clones and Imperial led stormtroopers for support.

Canon sources where this problem is continued

AOTC, ROTS, CW shorts, Republic series comics.

 

Paelleon is easily explained. He ran away. It happens from time to time, that's why there's still a crime called desertion in the face of the enemy. He just got lucky because there was no longer any centralised authority to censure him and he could claim the lack of any counter-acting orders, thanks to the destruction of the Death Star and the resulting communications problems that led to (Truce at Bakura Sourcebook).


A more serious problem is the constant belitting of the Empire TIE force. that's nominally chalked up to Rebel propganda, as we saw how Darth Vader TIE force chalked up numberous kills against a larger X-wing and Y-wing force.

 

About the Clonetrooper tactics:

The clones in Clone Wars acted realistically, but they were led by Jedi...

 

Clonetrooper tactics seem to have improved somewhat by the time of ROTS. They were actively taking cover on Utapau and Kashyyyk.

 

Actually, Pellaeon called retreat for the whole fleet. Desertion in the face of the enemy would have been making a single jump somewhere else and detaching from the Imperial Navy or something of that nature. Soldiers who desert don't pull their company back when they're getting mauled, they run away and go into hiding from their military.

 

According to HIM. Remember, the truce at Bakura sourcebook establishes that communications between Imperial warships were badly affected by the radiation of the Death Star explosion, resulting in there being virtually no coordination amongst the fleet.

 

I agree on the clone troopers, Dan. That was just pathetic. I haven't even spent time in the military and I find them laughable. Esp. the time it took for them to camoflauge their armor. Still wearing white armor 2 years into the war on a jungle planet is disgusting.

Name of the Problem:

White armor post-RotS.

Description of the Problem:

In RotS we saw clonetroopers had finally started wearing camo. Stormtroopers in all pre-ANH hope sources are wearing white armor again.

What's with the foolish switch?

Rating of the Problem:

This is a clearly stupid move that no competent commander would do. I would just consider it stupidity if not for the camo armor seen in RotS.

Any Fix, if possible, you suggest:

The Empire was too cheap to pay for armor in any color other than white. But this still doesn't explain why unit commanders didn't get paint or use natural elements to color the armor. It would be possible that they are all idiots, but we see men of clear intelligence like Lt. Sunber who should know enough to do so.

I'm not content with this fix and I have to say this was an out-of-universe mistake made by GL, authors and editors.

Canon sources where this problem is continued

ANH, ESB, RotJ, Marvel comics, Empire comics, etc.

 

In response to the camoflage question: some stormtroopers were wearing camoflage in ROTJ - that's why you couldn't see them!

 

The best fix is that the Imps were expecting combat inside the bunker and against a small Rebel strike force, so they didn't really need camo. They've been indicated to wear camo since, so that seems to make sense to me. Typical Imperial overconfidence.