Discussion in 'Literature' started by BoromirsFan, Mar 27, 2013.
Starting my read through of DNT/LOTF/MF/FOTJ and the Jaden Korr books. On The Joiner King and I'm at the point where Han and Leia land at that station and are haggling their goods with the bugs and are contenting the Killik Twilight. I don't mind bugs but the Killiks and their hive mind freak me out and I'm not even 100 pages in.
yeah Tahiri was butchered after Final Prophecy. She was never the same since.
is her being butchered realistic to human behavior or just bad writing?
I haven't read anything post ROTJ, but I heard Tahiri was ruined when Anakin died.
Nah; Tahiri was largely fine as a character post-Anakin while the NJO was still ongoing (I'll admit Destiny's Way Tahiri felt very off, but she didn't have a big part in that book anyway); she had some great parts in Enemy Lines, Force Heretic, and especially Final Prophecy. However, she was barely in Unifying Force, something that always struck me as a strange decision since the preceeding books were clearly setting her up for something big, and her role was pretty minimal for a while after that. However, when she came back as a main character midway through LOTF, that's where I feel the real trouble started. For one thing, a major thrust of her character development in the NJO was based around coming to terms with the fact that, as a result of being shaped by the Vong, she was now as much Yuuzhan Vong as human. LOTF dropped that like a hot potato (except for the odd snide comment about being Jacen's "villip" you'd never know from those books that she'd ever had a particular history with the Vong, and Fate of the Jedi continued in that vein), rendering Tahiri's arcs in Force Heretic and Final Prophecy neatly pointless.
Worse than that, at the same time she was dealing with her Vong issues, she was coming to terms with Anakin's death, and from the end of FH3 on, it was clear that while she still missed him, she'd accepted her grief and it was no longer the defining motivator of her actions. LOTF Tahiri apprentices herself to Jacen- who by this point has been running around for several books acting like the reincarnation of Snidely Whiplash while delusionally harping on about how he's still the good guy- because he's convinced her that he can use a technique called "Flow-walking" to let her see Anakin again (he can) and maybe bring him back (which he can't). Now, late NJO Tahiri was not beyond the stage where this would be enough to make her go Sith- and she's had most of a decade further to move on by LOTF- but in the late NJO she was terrified that her Vong side would make her go dark and had rather paranoid surival instincts on top of that. The whole thing was a clumsy way to get Jacen an apprentice, and it destroyed a great character along the way. FOTJ has done some damage control, but frankly, it's too little, too late if you ask me.
And let's not even talk about that scene in Invincible. Yes, if you've read the book, you know the one. With Ben.
EDIT: To sum it up, no it wasn't realistic human behavior, and it was sloppy writing and plotting on top of that.
It's like they just needed a character to team up with Jacen and be a bad sidekick, and they picked Tahiri out of of laziness and complete disregard fo the characters previous appearances and activity.
But that's still not even close to worst character butchering that occurs in LOTF.
Honestly, I felt like LOTF had been leading up to Alema being Jacen's apprentice (because honestly, I don't think anyone seriously expected it would, in the long run, be Ben). Alema at that point wanted to hurt Leia as much as possible, and helping Leia's son destroy everything she'd fought for makes a certain amount of sense (or at least twisted Alema-sense), and starting in Tempest she'd been a significant recurring villain. The tensions between the two characters and disparity of their goals would have made for a nicely backstabby, Sithly relationship as well. It being Tahiri- a character who, in addition to all the character derailment elaborated on above, had barely been in LOTF prior to Inferno- felt totally out of the blue and was one of the elements that really made me think that there wasn't a whole lot of prior planning into LOTF's arc or coordination between authors.
Wasn't sure where to ask this so I'm necroing this thread...
I just finished the chapter in which Jagged Fel is introduced and...
...am I the only one who can't stand him? Or is this just a first impression and he gets better? So far he comes across as an arrogant ass, and the idea that Jaina is practically knocked over by his mere entering a room...just no.
I'm going to keep an open mind as his story evolves but so far I'm not impressed at all.
Don't worry, neither he or his story "evolves" !
IDK, I liked his introductory chapter. After two and a half books straight of Chief Borsk, seeing Jag pretty much give him a big **** to his face you was pretty awesome.
And just wait 'til you get to Allston's Enemy Lines books. Jag is pretty tolerable there.
Borsk rarely bothered me, and when he did...I wanted Leia or Han to give him the **** you.
I have particular reasons to be extremely unfond of Borsk Failure.
a_g -- when I first read those books, I must confess that I always liked Jag's entrance in Ruin. Perhaps it's because I was young, perhaps it was because I had yet to revile the Imperial Remnant and Pelly, or perhaps it was just that I was so starved with a positive portrayal of an Imperial that I was unduly pleased by it. I have to wonder what I'd think of it these days, but I have no interest in re-reading that train.
Even if that train was in Maine?
Tahiri-wise, I simply took the view that she, too, was still trying to find her role in the peace. Tusken turned Jedi turned Yuuzhan Vong turned Killik Joiner... She's been through a lot. I don't doubt Jacen could break someone by dangling in front of her that he could resurrect someone she loved. She didn't do anything overly evil to start off with, and then Leia went for her and she was irrevocably put in Jacen's camp. Leia was reacting to Luke's death at the time, but being as Tahiri's next encounter with the Solo clan saw Jaina and Mirta nearly kill her, I can't see her having a lot of choice but to embrace her lot as Sith, when her only anchor in the galaxy is a Sith.
Vector Prime was basically my jumping off point for the EU, kill Chewie and I'm out, and considering how I have 80% of the Bantam Era novels that I read and re-read throughout the 90s, that's a bit of a thing.
No, you have just been reading sensationalism word choice.
Jacen using Force flashback on Tahiri is making her revisit several very trumatic moments of her life ad nauseum. This is a little more sexy than a captor locking a recovering alcoholic inside a room full of open Johnnie Walker bottles though the effect is similar. The problem revolves around the fact Denning did not have Jacen go off into evil monologue and explicitly "I am going to make Tahiri relapse on Anakin for fifty dark side points! " Alas, implying instead of identifying.
Re New Jedi Order then versus now:
Mon dieu, Luke's stupidity is even worse reading now. Gag, put me to sleep, stick the metal shard through my eyes. Sledgehammer, you no longer are the bluntest of instruments. Same goes for the attempts at political intrigue in the first half of the series. I remember old Excellence lamenting the immaturity in the New Jedi Order. I can see the transparency now. The attempts at forcing the political divisions within the New Republic and the Jedi Order are inane at best, sleep inducing at worst.
Why the first two hardcovers, the purported event novels, are written by the bottom cart writers of the series perplexes me. Salvatore brings nothing new to the table except for a plethora exclamation points while Tyers should be admired for making the novel containing the discovery of Mara's pregnancy boring, the ungodly true sin of fiction.
Edge of Victory: Conquest is somewhat of an improvement though Keyes' characterization of Tahiri pre-Vong Mind Rape is irritating enough I almost cheered what the Vong did to her. Almost none of these guys can create a believable gifted child. The childlike/childish dichotomy is lost on Keyes completely. However, I must give props to Keyes for killing off the magic bunny Jedi. Yes, the cute fluffy bunny from Junior Jedi Knights warranted an inclusion. "I can sense your destiny, Anakin! Throw me the magic string, Anakin!" Some things need to remain off in limbo.
I just finished Ruin. I'm starting to see why some people find Corran to be Stackpole's Gary Stu, with the ending depicted as, "Awww, poor Corran, look at him being the fall guy for Ithor's destruction in spite of so many protests. How sweet and self-sacrificing of him." I did feel sorry for Corran feeling that level of guilt but at the same time I agreed with Jacen's assessment..."Dude, WTF are you doing?"
And Mara, basically telling Corran to self-sacrifice away and not to let the door hit his ass on the way back to Corellia--STFU woman.
Poor Jaina, loved the scene with her and Anakin.
Uhh yeah, Corran should have somehow known the Vong had an unstoppable superweapon ready for when they reneged on their deal.
Know what I loved about Ruin? 2 things - the death of Shedao Shai - lightsaber exiting through the throat is a great way to go, though he probably enjoyed it too much being a big pain fan. Second, the destruction of the worldship, held in place by an Interdictor Cruiser while 12 Star Destroyers blow the crap out of it!
I liked Shedao Shai's death as well, especially as it fits with the whole Vong philosophy on warrior dignity and taking pleasure in pain.
I'm looking forward to starting Hero's Trial tonight; I love Luceno.
well it depends on how you're approaching the scene. if you're actually trying to read and appreciate the book as part of a coherent story-arc, then yeah, it's pretty awful and jag is totally obnoxious and the whole thing is drenched in that creepy military-worship that pervades everything stackpole writes.
if however you're reading it to just bask in the glorious stackpoliness of it all it's basically amazing, like a highlight of the book, of the entire stackpolean canon even. the best part is when he goes to shake wedge's hand and wedge just like bearhugs him and jag's like "wtf"-- the mental image i get is hilarious. and then once jag's properly introduced he and jaina get to have one of the most amazingly stackpolean conversations ever. behold:
What the hell is "stackpolean"?
I like the dude as an author but I didn't know he had an adjective attributed to him.
In the manner of Stackpole. It's a tripism, he makes all sorts of them. IIRC "Banite" was another tripism, one she greatly regrets. Isn't that right,
Hero's Trial is indeed great, especially if you have read the Daley novels.
Stack·pol·ean adjective \stak-'pōl-ē-ən\
1 : of, relating to, or having the characteristics of Stackpole or his writings
2 : evocative of a theme, setting, or event from a work of Stackpole
Oh, I thought you were referring to Stackpoléon, famous conqueror.