The New Jedi Order, trying too hard to top Lucas' saga?

The main reason I don't like the NJO (not the books, the group) is because it pisses totally on the OJO. Some of the few things that unite them are that they wear cloaks and carry lightsabers.

The purpose of the Jedi order is to protect the galaxy. A very long time ago, some guy (or girl) "discovered" the force. He discovered that there was a dark side and a light side. He decided to protect the galaxy from the dark side because only he could understand it. He found others like himself (i.e. force adepts) and taught them the way. As the republic and jedi grew in strength, their roles expanded to that of diplomats, negotiators, detectives, etc. The force does not live and die with the Jedi & Sith. Non-force adepts are also part of the force. You don't have to be a force-adept to be consumed by the Dark Side of the Force. So the Jedis' purpose is not just to stop users but also usees.

Now I don't completely agree with the methods of the OJO (cradle robbing), but they were the correct ones in creating a group of people that would live their lives in servitude of the Force. Now you may question if that's a good thing or not, but if you do that means you really don't understand the Jedi religion. If someone comes to you and takes your infant away and says that they need your child to protect the universe from evil. Then your child comes back to you and ....

Child: "They were right, there is a dark powerful force that threatens the universe, and I must stop it."
You: "NO! They've brainwashed you!"
Child: "No, they haven't. See [child levitates you with his/her force abilities].
You: "NO! That was some trick that those baby stealers have perpetrated!"
Child: "No, I've accepted into my heart that I now live a better life. I like having my life serve a purpose even if it's not the purpose I would've chosen years ago or the one you would've chosen. It's the purpose I choose now. I am a Jedi. The force gave me this gift in order to protect the universe, and I'm going to do that. I could've been a mechanic, politician, king, waiter, writer, soldier, or even dead had they not come for me. I could've been important or not at all had my destiny been left up to me a long time ago. But that was not the destiny the force meant for me. I am allowed to wield the force as a tool because i am a tool to the force. The light side speaks to me saying 'Use me so that I can use you and stop my evil twin, the dark side.'"
You: "NO! They've controlled your destiny and brainwashed you!"

You say that because you are too close-minded to understand that there may be things greater in life than you or I.

The NJD (D for Disorder) is more human, but considering that post SBS it is actually 90% human, then that's understandable. I can only think of 3 non-human Jedi off the top of my head that survived past SBS (Lowie, Clighal, and Tekli). But considering that the OJO was made up of thousands of people for hundreds of species, then being less "human" is necessary.

I don't like the NJD because there's no order in it. It's basically become a bunch of hotshot teens doing whatever they want to. Would I like to see a Council? Yes. Do I want to see a Council that is authoritarian? No. I don't like the fact that people that aren't officially Jedi because they haven't "graduated" to knighthood can just roam the galaxy and do whatever they want to do.

The NJO is too Hollywood. It's the equivalent of movie producers casting only attractive people and adding explosions and car chases in their movies every 5 minutes to put butts in the seats. The EU as a whole trivializes the power of the Dark Side. You can take a bath in dark side juice, but then you realize in the middle that it's not a good idea, and then you hose yourself off and it's all better. I know it makes a better story if you have people fall or almost fall and then come back.

Del Rey Conceptualizer #1: "Hey let's put them in an impossible situation, and have them claw back from impossible odds!"
Del Rey Conceptualizer #2: "Yeah that's a great idea!"

Well you k

 

Thanks Jacen, Trell, Bob.
Gah,I can't believe how many typos my post had. Plus some of the sentence structure is way off. Thanks all for looking past tha

I definitely need to start editing.

 

Thyrsan - no flaming, just a healthy discussion, yeah?

The main reason I don't like the NJO (not the books, the group) is because it pisses totally on the OJO. Some of the few things that unite them are that they wear cloaks and carry lightsabers. - I think I'd agree there!

The purpose of the Jedi order is to protect the galaxy. A very long time ago, some guy (or girl) "discovered" the force. He discovered that there was a dark side and a light side. He decided to protect the galaxy from the dark side because only he could understand it. He found others like himself (i.e. force adepts) and taught them the way.
Hmm... I agree again! The Dark Side though - we've got to remember that its influenced by non-Force-sensitives too. A non-Jedi can be imbalancing things. Fear, hatred, anger - and now look at how prevalent all three of THOSE emotions are in the GFFA NJO-wise...

As the republic and jedi grew in strength, their roles expanded to that of diplomats, negotiators, detectives, etc. True, but in NJO that role has been undermined and Luke's struggling to recreate it, imo. It is, if you like, the second genesis of the Jedi Order.

The force does not live and die with the Jedi & Sith. Non-force adepts are also part of the force. You don't have to be a force-adept to be consumed by the Dark Side of the Force. So the Jedis' purpose is not just to stop users but also usees. Agreed again!

Now I don't completely agree with the methods of the OJO (cradle robbing), but they were the correct ones in creating a group of people that would live their lives in servitude of the Force. Disagreed. A people who have freely CHOSE to devote themselves are surely better than those who've had no choice.

Now you may question if that's a good thing or not, but if you do that means you really don't understand the Jedi religion. That doesn't mean we can't criticise it. I can't understand why extreme militant Muslims could do something like September 11th, it doesn't invalidate my criticism of their actions.

Child: "No, I've accepted into my heart that I now live a better life. I like having my life serve a purpose even if it's not the purpose I would've chosen years ago or the one you would've chosen. It's the purpose I choose now. I am a Jedi. The force gave me this gift in order to protect the universe, and I'm going to do that. I could've been a mechanic, politician, king, waiter, writer, soldier, or even dead had they not come for me. I could've been important or not at all had my destiny been left up to me a long time ago. But that was not the destiny the force meant for me. I am allowed to wield the force as a tool because i am a tool to the force. The light side speaks to me saying 'Use me so that I can use you and stop my evil twin, the dark side.'" Shame he HASN'T chosen... He never had a choice, that was what had been decided for him. His decision is therefore invalid - it's a NON-DECISION. How many Jedi have rejected the movement? 20, according to AotC. Not many have chosen otherwise. Now that can be taken as a head - they recognise its truth - or a tail - they never have a choice.

You say that because you are too close-minded to understand that there may be things greater in life than you or I. On the contrary, I believe in God, in destiny, in His having a plan for my life that I've chosen to follow for the sake of eternity. But I chose to commit myself... a Jedi doesn't get a choice.

The NJD (D for Disorder) is more human, but considering that post SBS it is actually 90% human, then that's understandable. I can only think of 3 non-human Jedi off the top of my head that survived past SBS (Lowie, Clighal, and Tekli). But considering that the OJO was made up of thousands of people for hundreds of species, then being less "human" is necessary. Nice point. Sannah's a Melodie, btw... I dunno though, depends on the definition of the word 'human' - if by that you imply emotive and passionate and compassionate, no

 

"As the republic and jedi grew in strength, their roles expanded to that of diplomats, negotiators, detectives, etc. The force does not live and die with the Jedi & Sith. Non-force adepts are also part of the force. You don't have to be a force-adept to be consumed by the Dark Side of the Force. So the Jedis' purpose is not just to stop users but also usees. "

Yes,you and I share similar beliefs. I'm a huge advocate of that belief in fact. I bvelieve that a non-Force user could've imbalanced the Force.

However, why does the GFFA need the Jedi to take oput non Force users? I mean,we here in the real world didn't need to call on mages to take down Hitler. Sure he was evil, but mortal men were able to subdue him.

If we had a group of Mages ,perhaps it would've gone faster. What if they were sponsored byt he government though? What if the government made you submit your child to mandatory blood tests? (it's smandatory according to the DS SB). What if the Mages kept bugging you constantly to give up your child? What i you finally give in? You never see your kid again. All ties with you are cut off. You late come to regret this ,but oh well too bad. Not even visiting is allowed.

The Mages get your kid ,tey fill him with their beliefs the moment he can talk. He's never allowed to consider anything else, he always taught the supremacy of the Force. He can never shape his own destiy. It has been decided by you and the Mages.

Or maybe you think your son or daughter is doing well. Guess again. He flunked out at 13. He just turned 13 and no one has picked him to be an apprentice. Now he's off to some god-forsaken land to help people farm! Guess what??! He going on a tramp freighter with pirates and crime lords! You're child might be dead in a week! (this happened to Obi Wan btw,non of the Jedi batted an eyelash..well except Qui Gon..isn't the irresponsibility of the Jedi staggering?)

Let's say Hitler was a DarkMage. Yay,the Light Mages put him down! Oh wait...it turns out that good ol Adolf used to be a Light mage! If the Order of the Mages had never existed,he would;'t have wrecked untold havoc on the galaxy!


I don't completely agree with the methods of the OJO (cradle robbing), but they were the correct ones in creating a group of people that would live their lives in servitude of the Force. Now you may question if that's a good thing or not, but if you do that means you really don't understand the Jedi religion. If someone comes to you and takes your infant away and says that they need your child to protect the universe from evil. Then your child comes back to you and ....

Child: "They were right, there is a dark powerful force that threatens the universe, and I must stop it."
You: "NO! They've brainwashed you!"
Child: "No, they haven't. See [child levitates you with his/her force abilities].
You: "NO! That was some trick that those baby stealers have perpetrated!"
Child: "No, I've accepted into my heart that I now live a better life. I like having my life serve a purpose even if it's not the purpose I would've chosen years ago or the one you would've chosen. It's the purpose I choose now. I am a Jedi. The force gave me this gift in order to protect the universe, and I'm going to do that. I could've been a mechanic, politician, king, waiter, writer, soldier, or even dead had they not come for me. I could've been important or not at all had my destiny been left up to me a long time ago. But that was not the destiny the force meant for me. I am allowed to wield the force as a tool because i am a tool to the force. The light side speaks to me saying 'Use me so that I can use you and stop my evil twin, the dark side.'"
You: "NO! They've controlled your destiny and brainwashed you!"

You say that because you are too close-minded to understand that there may be things greater in life than you or I."

You say you dn't agree with their methods ,yet you defend them?

The ancient Jedi did fine. They never resorted to takiing children. According to the Dark Side sourcebook, they r

 

Those are some very valid points. Excellent arguments.

I think for Luke's NJO you have the fact that Luke has but basic information and still little experience and he had to rebuild the Jedi Order from scratch.
With the distant memories of the PT-era Jedi order, the mostly vanquished Empire, most of the galaxy and its inhabitants have changed too. (Different mentallity I suppose.) This could in part be why the current younger Jedi act so differently.

The clear and structured training, path and guidance they have in the PT-era Jedi Order is not yet fully present again in the NJO.
(Though Luke is trying to create a jedi Council again.)
Also their numbers are very limited which can explain why they send 'apprentices' off on their own missions. And it might be due to the war with the Yuuzhan Vong that time and opportunity to officially recognize the apprentices who proved their worth as Knights is simply short.

The PT-era Jedi Order suffered from and showed the symptoms of an Order that has been around for too long in its current shape and without any serious self-inquiry as to its methods and actions. They mean well, but as said by Yoda, many Jedi have become complacent and arrogant.
The NJO again suffers from it's 'infancy' or 'childhood', having to start everything up from scratch with limited numbers, they still haven't figured everything out yet or have structured and streamlined it enough yet. (A lot of Jedi in the NJO fall to the Dark Side too, I think even more than in the PT-era Jedi Order.)

While I can understand the -commercial-reasoning behind it, it is sad the NJO doesn't count that many alien Jedi.
(As so many of us fans do, I'm writing a little fanfic story in the NJO era and all my main characters that are Jedi are aliens. I thought it'd be fun to once again see a few alien Jedi have their own parts and adventures. Just my personal idea though.)

 

The PT Jedi as an institution is morally corrupt.

With respect to the Purge, they had it coming. Darth Vader is not an instrument of good or evil. There are higher powers at work - it's the will of the Force cleaning house.

Yoda knows this.

And unfortunately, when the standards of the New Jedi allow for morally-corrupt people like Mara Jade being a New Jedi master of a New Jedi order, it seems that the Force really needs to clean house once again.

Luke had his chance and screwed up. Let the Force give the Other Hope a try. Leia's three times the leader any one else in the GFFA is.

 

So Ghengis, do you think a flying blade disc should come out of nowhere and cut Luke's head off for being such a "failure".

Considering how most find Luke's order to be MUCH closer to the origional Jedi. I find it very hard to beleve you want a Deus Ex Machina which would destroy all that Luke created.

If your seriously "that" fed up, wait till Destiny's Way when Luke reforms the order and New Republic.

But come on man, that's pretty lame argument based on the single fact that you don't like Mara being married to Luke.

 

I'd say this accusation whould apply more to the Prequels. They try so hard it's ridiculous...
The sequel novels always tried to provide a certain ammount of what the OT was and I don't see many differences with the NJO. It's just better coordinated and everything is a little more planned now...

 

Amen, Anakin1067. I think everything is going just fine. And I like Mara too.

 

You guys came up with some good points to challenge my own. I?m just basically now going to focus my argument on the issue of ?cradle robbing? and a few other topics brought up. I don?t feel like cutting and pasting your original text, so I guess I?ll let you figure out who I?m talking to.

You asked me how I can defend a position that I don?t agree with. Well, I can do that because I have that kind of mind. I have never come into a situation in my life that I was unable to see both sides of the issue.

I don?t think the Jedi are forcing their beliefs on anyone. I think that what the Jedi do is no different from what we do in our own education systems. Is it wrong when the rich send their children away to private schools or when challenged kids are sent to special schools? No. The Jedi aren?t forcng anyone to follow their beliefs by putting a blaster to their head. These people are making choices themselves. Some have even made the choice to not follow the Jedi path later on as teens and adults, and those are often the people that fall to the Dark Side. So are these the only people that have chosen because they have chosen ?correctly? and chose not to be ?slaves? to the force? I don?t think so.

Granted, when a young child is influenced heavily be their parental figure. In the Jedi?s case, it is them rather than a parent that influences these hopefuls the most. Is that wrong? I don?t believe so. Is it right? No, but when did something that was not right have to be wrong? The Jedi have greater plans for these children.

I want to know how you came to your faith, JK Dart. Did somebody just hand you a bible a few years ago and say make a choice: read it or don?t, a few years ago? I doubt it. If my or your parents forced me to go to church Sunday when I was younger, were they brainwashing me? Based off what you say, they were.

I don?t know what I would?ve done if I was Del Rey. I?m not paid to be creative, so it?s not my problem. The more I think about it, the more I do kinda understand their situation. I hope that they are using the NJO series as a transition to something greater in the future. I do see that this current predicament is more creative than the obvious alternative: Empire or Sith, but I just don?t know ?

Whether Hitler was a former light mage or not doesn?t matter. It still matters that he caused all the death and devastation, and there?s no telling he would have done the same if he was not a mage. DO you blame the Allies of WWI for Hitler?s rise in Europe? Because you should then. They were the ones that created an oppressive society in Germany, post-WWI that allowed for a man of Hitler?s stature to rise to power. They are the reasons that there were so many atrocities in 1940s Europe. Now do I really believe that? No. So why should I believe that it?s the Light Mages fault for training a guy like Hitler. Nobody knew that he would turn evil.

If it were my child, then I?d probably have the same reaction as everybody else if the mages/Jedi came to take him/her away. But that would be because I didn?t understand that the Mages thought they were doing him/her the greater good. People accept/believe everyday that God takes away people for no absolute reason for the greater good. Why does it not apply here?

I believe too that OJO was deteriorating in the PT era. They were too attached to the Republic, and as one fell, the other fell too. Luke can restart his NJO without making this fatal mistake, of not becoming too enthralled with the rise and fall of the NR, but he does not have neglect all the rules/values of the OJO just because he is trying to avoid one mistake.

Debate away?

 

NJO is truer to ancient and more correct Jedi path. Taking infant children as part of a social practice and warping them into what path you've chosen for them is not correct. I suppose you feel the young children who were inducted into the Hitler Youth truly understood what they were doing? These are just babies. NJO needs to be given a break. They're only had just under three decades to survive being nearly totally wiped out. I'm suprised things are going this well and their path is as close to the AJO as it is. Luke deserves a big pat on the back for his work.

 

This is where we will continually disagree. I don?t think the Jedi are warping anyone. What do you think the Jedi are teaching their hopefuls? They are teaching them things that 95% of us would agree with. There is no warping involved at all. Principally I understand your point, but it is still a wrong one. Now if it were the Sith rather than Jedi, you?d have a case.

Repression of emotions is wrong, but I think they were trying to control them, but they crossed the line at some point. But the NJO has made a complete embrace of emotions which is not Jedi. The fact that they are living in a very emotional time, and not 1 Jedi has fallen, makes me dislike the way the series has been written. And Jaina?s little temper tantrum in DJ doesn?t count. Maybe there is hope with Jacen when I pick up Traitor mañana.

 

The old Jedi Order managed to survive for a thousand generations, so I would loath to say that Luke's Jedi Order is better than what was before, since they have yet to prove themselves. Sure, they had problems dealing with internal problems, as we can see with Anakin and the long-term Dark Jedi/Sith problems, but they managed to prolong the Republic through countless conflicts and turmoils. They may have been heavy-handed, but if not for their intervention, the destiny of the Old Republic would have been chaos long ago.

 

"Whether Hitler was a former light mage or not doesn?t matter. It still matters that he caused all the death and devastation, and there?s no telling he would have done the same if he was not a mage. DO you blame the Allies of WWI for Hitler?s rise in Europe? Because you should then. They were the ones that created an oppressive society in Germany, post-WWI that allowed for a man of Hitler?s stature to rise to power. They are the reasons that there were so many atrocities in 1940s Europe. Now do I really believe that? No. So why should I believe that it?s the Light Mages fault for training a guy like Hitler. Nobody knew that he would turn evil. "

That's a bit different. The Jedi are messing wit powers that sometimes are beyond their understanding. If not for the ark Siders that continually spring up(often times from tei own order) then they wouldn't really be needed. Non Force users are perfectly capable of handling other non force users.

If the Jedi want to continue their studies,then they should confront their problems dead on. Not avoid em the way the PT era Jedi did. If they're going to go down that path again they shouldn't even e around ...

Luke is doing a fine job. As of Rebel Stand,the Jedi Order is finally shaping up.

 

Shaping up, huh? Everytime they get organized half of them die. Luke, their leader hasn't communicated with most of them in several months, and that's counting pre-Coruscant.

 

How do you know how often he's communicated? They're fighting a Force-less enemy for survival who is trying to exterminate their flegling organization.

I'll tell you my problem with your: It's ok that they take the kids and teach them because we agree with the teachings. I don't agree that people should be forced to be celibate and emotionless. I don't believe people should be told they should squash their own natural compulsions. You're letting the ends justify the means. I don't believe anyone has the right to take children and choose their lives for them, even if society says it's a "good life." You cannot allow the ends to justify the means, especially when the alternative Ancient Jedi Order method worked just fine. That is evil. To rob children of their choices and remove them from their parents created much resentment and even hatred. The cold, uncaring, emotionless air to the Old Jedi Order was part of what weakened them and enabled them to be crushed by the Sith.

 

I AM letting the ends justify the means. I don't see anything wrong with that. So was it wrong for the U.S. to drop an atomic bomb on Japan? Yeah, but if killing a whole bunch of Japanese by using the world's deadliest weapon in order to save half a million American soldiers, let alone thousands of Russians, and millions more Japanese, then so be it.

The OJO fell because they became complacent. I think it has little to do with their practices rather than just getting complacent in it's old age. The OJO thought they wiped out the Sith, but little did they know that the Sith had been biding their time for a thousand years waiting for the opportunity to strike.

The AJO did not have the same "responsibilities" of the PTJO. The PTJO was official policeman of over a thousand worlds. I don't think the Republic was to that point millenia ago.

We will never be in agreement, because I don't see the OJO as forcing anybody to do anything. Nothing says they did. All they were was a school. I don't think there was a single Jedi hopeful that once they reached the age of cognitive thought, actually didn't want to be there. And if there were, they probably weren't retained on Coruscant against their will. You guys may think it's because they were brainwashed, but I don't think so. Parents don't brainwash their kids into going to school, church, etc., so how could the Jedi? Were they playing mind tricks on them 24/7?

 

Uh, the OJO/PTJO did have responsibilities in fighting slavers and plenty of Dark Side Mauraders and Dark Jedi. It was their practices that doomed them, they were well in practice. Particularly after the shock one-thousand years earlier of nearly all of them being killed. They became overly rigid, conservative, and knee-jerk reactionary.

 

I agree, Lord_Darth_Bob. If someone is unable to consent, as in a child consenting to be a Jedi or join any religion for that matter, I don't believe its right for the decision to be made.

But maybe that is the lesser of two evils. Think about it- the Council broke the law concerning training only infants for the sake of teaching Anakin to be a Jedi- and they were wiped out b/c of it .

 

I only skimmed what's been written so far, but it doesn't look like the main point of this thread's really been addressed.

Do I think the NJO is trying too hard to top Lucas? Hell; in a great many ways, I think it's already topped him.

 

NJO has definetely taken the fans into darker areas of the GFFA than Lucas was willing to. We never actually saw Vader torture Leia or Han in the movies, but in the NJO we get to see the grit and desperation of the war. Personally, I enjoy having such a deadly enemy and seeing the heroes live in fear.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with the NJO trying to top Lucas. It's one thing to try to top him, it's another thing to try and discredit him. Lucas set the standard, and to settle for anything less is just plain dumb.

Do I think they have? No, because I'll never get the same enjoyment from reading a book as I do from watching a movie. Or at least I have not so far in my life.