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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit The New (Mostly) Comprehensive Clone Wars (L-canon?) Timeline

Discussion in 'Literature' started by HEDGESMFG, Mar 18, 2013.

  1. DigitalMessiah

    DigitalMessiah Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 17, 2004
    If Maul dies at all!
     
  2. TalonCard

    TalonCard •Author: Slave Pits of Lorrd •TFN EU Staff star 5 VIP

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2001
    True, but the game also mentions Maul as having died on Naboo as per TPM, which was correct as far as anyone knew at the time. There's also no reference as far as I can tell to the Clone Wars (with no appearances by clone troopers, or am I wrong?), though I'll admit they steal lots of setpieces from ROTS.

    It's odd that Shu Mai would be leading an attack on Coruscant pre-AOTC, but maybe it's a Gunray/Naboo kind of situation...

    TC
     
  3. HEDGESMFG

    HEDGESMFG Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2010
    This is based on the new order, which is how I just watched it all. The comic placement was revamped (loosely) to follow this. The contradictions from such aren't 'too' bad.

    And yes, for those of you who didn't see my other post... I just finished watching the show, reading the Republic comics, and adding in the microseries to follow the suggested order... and overall? I really enjoyed it. The war really felt complete and most of the material flowed together surprisingly well when you ignore the old dates. The overall 'story' of the clone wars now works pretty well. I encourage you all to try the same.

    Having said that, I'll probably do one last revision once the Maul comics are out. I doubt very much will change.

    P.S. Over the next few years, expect me to start attempting to figure out a similar order for the EU that will fill in the Dark Times and lead into Rebels. I doubt it will be nearly as complex (the story order as seen on the Wook is already fairly decent), but I'm gonna be rereading all of it over the next few months (Droids, Dark times, everything.) to really get a feel for the era and be ready to sort through any potential issues we may face. I love the potential the Dark Times offers storywise, and I hope Rebels honestly lives up to that... even if it's closer to EP IV than I'd like.
     
  4. TalonCard

    TalonCard •Author: Slave Pits of Lorrd •TFN EU Staff star 5 VIP

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2001
    While re-watching Clone Wars, I noticed that the opening of "Senate Spy" states that Anakin has been on a lengthy tour of duty away from Coruscant. The previous episode chronologically is "Zilo Beast Strikes Back", which has Anakin on Coruscant. So there's a pretty long break in between the two episodes--a good place to place some of the tie-in material, particularly some of those UK comic stories, perhaps?

    TC
     
  5. mnjedi

    mnjedi JCC Arena Game Host star 5 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 4, 2012
    With all of the Eu stuff thrown out, I have to say I'm impressed that the confederacy managed to hold itself together for as long as it did without winning a single battle in the new universe.
     
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  6. HEDGESMFG

    HEDGESMFG Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2010
    Just to make it clear, I'm not necessarily going to update this timeline anymore due to the new announcement. While I of course never considered this timeline official, I did find it to be the most logical conclusion for how the old material could be canon under the assumption that Lucasfilm did not officially decanonize the old EU material.

    But then they did.

    Now, this is still my personal timeline that I will follow, so I'll still be around here. But I made it under the assumption that their silence would allow its existence from a logical perspective of noninterference. Maybe no NEU material will interfere with that, but I don't know what to expect for now. I don't want to get too much more invested into a project which the powers that be may now never support in any way.

    Keep in mind, the current canon policy could change and events here could be let back into canon via backdoor references in future material, but that's not guaranteed anymore. We shall see. I think Luceno's Tarkin novel will be the true test for how many EU concepts and characters from the pre-rebels period survive.
     
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  7. Starkeiller

    Starkeiller Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2004
    Tons of old Clone Wars material has been backdoor-ed in already (RotS novelization!)
     
  8. TalonCard

    TalonCard •Author: Slave Pits of Lorrd •TFN EU Staff star 5 VIP

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2001
    Aww. I included everything on my Timeline, even the Infinities stuff. Legends shouldn't be any different. :D (And hey, we don't even have to change the letter!)

    TC
     
  9. HEDGESMFG

    HEDGESMFG Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2010
    Perhaps I should just say I'd prefer to take a wait and see approach on the future of the storylines. I still think the new and old material make sense together, this timeline that we've got will always been the clone wars as I know it, and I doubt it'll be seriously contradicted by future material (I mean, moreso than what they've already done...)

    So I'm content to leave it here, knowing that it's all a fun experience when taken as one big aspect of this larger franchise.

    But I still want to see where things go, subtly hoping that the future loosens up the canon a bit to still support most of the pre ROTJ material. Again, for now, I shall wait and see. Similarly to what I've done here, I'll still be taking in the Dark Times EU as a lead in to Rebels to see if that still fits.
     
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  10. lotusflow3r

    lotusflow3r Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jun 7, 2014
    Hi, I'm new here so forgive me if I speak nonsense since I don't have your level of expertise but from what I understand the Clone Wars continuity was quite cohesive until the 2008 cartoon series and its spin-offs started to contradict it and that's when headaches started for you guys. I even noticed that the guy behind the Timeline Gold found both so irreconciliable that his work now features 2 different Clone Wars timelines, one pre-2008 series and the other centered around it.

    Now that LF has announced that everything EU is "Legends" except for the 2008 cartoon itself, I was wondering if it wouldn't be much simpler to count 3 different timelines (+ Infinities stories of course):
    1/ The new Canon timeline.
    2/ Legends #1 timeline with the whole EU but excluding the 2008 Clone Wars film/series and all its subsequent EU spin-offs (books, comics, etc.).
    3/ A Legends #2 timeline that is similar to Legends #1 except that it includes the 2008 Clone Wars series and its spin-offs, and excludes everything else that occured between AOTC and ROTS.

    I was thinking this because the "good" news in the Story Group making this new canon and deciding that no further Legends material should be produced is that basically we now have a "parallel" SW universe that tells a complete story that goes from 25,000 BBY to the Legacy era. I know there have been consistency issues since the begining of the EU but it seems that save for the 2008 Clone Wars series most were minor details easily solved or ignored.

    So if the Clone Wars series is now Canon it could be extracted from the Legends continuity the same way all future Canon material will, and since its spin-offs are not Canon in the end those spin-offs are the only true problem here, so they could simply be discarted from the Legends continuity and made part of a third timeline that would be Clone Wars 2008-centered. Therefore, no more headaches and people are free to read Legends #1 or Legends #2 depending on which interpretation of the Clone Wars years they like better.

    Not sure if this make sense, it could be more complex than that, but what do you guys think of the idea?
     
  11. _Catherine_

    _Catherine_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2007
    The problem with excising TCW as a whole from Legends continuity is that, prior to the Great Decanonization, the EU had already started trying to repair itself and integrate TCW more smoothly into its history. So you have Mortis and the Ones coming up in Fate of the Jedi and Mother Talzin in Darth Plagueis, Ahsoka appearing in Legends reference works like The Essential Guide to Warfare and The Jedi Path, Satine and the New Mandalorians being retconned pretty seamlessly into existing Mandalorian history by The Essential Atlas, and regular EU stories without the TCW imprint that were still basically TCW tie-ins like Darth Maul: Death Sentence and "Hondo Ohnaka's Not-So-Big Score." There's also the matter of the TCW spinoffs not being part of the new canon; only the cartoons themselves count. If you try to discount anything that says TCW on it, you end up with dozens of orphaned stories that don't fit into either continuity, several of which actually reference specific non-TCW stories from the broader EU. I mean you can ignore it in favor of the original timeline if you want but I feel like that might leave even more loose ends than just squinting at it until everything almost fits.
     
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  12. lotusflow3r

    lotusflow3r Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jun 7, 2014
    Argh, I feared it wouldn't be that simple! I agree with the "orphan stories" which is why I toyed with the Legends 2 timeline idea.

    2 questions just to make sure:
    If we discard the guides which after all are not stories, do the TCW references in non-TCW EU material (stories from other eras) directly imply contradictory events from TCW or simply characters and events appear or are mentioned without their appearences/mentions implying any specific contradiction?
    And those stories or characters that appear in non TCW EU material, are they kind of explained/self contained or does one absolutely need to have seen TCW to get it?

    I'm wondering because at some point in the future when I have more time and money it's likely that I will get back to the EU (Legends) and try to get and read all the important stories in order (like maybe not every Star Wars Insider and Tales story but at least the comics that were compiled in trade paperbacks and the novels, and when I do so I really wonder whether I should bother including TCW material or see it as a separate canon entirely. I see the decanonization as a good way to get the "whole story" in order since from now on I won't get a new novel happening in 5BBY published after I've reached 5ABY ;)

    Oh BTW another question: there are several timelines available online (I found at least 3), is there one you guys consider being really better than the others, that you'd advise anyone to follow more than the other?

    Thanks again for your help and patience ;)
     
  13. Skywalker8921

    Skywalker8921 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2011
    As far as the adult novels published from 2008 - 2014 go, it seems that TCW's impact on the post TCW novels is actually fairly minimal. Maul's new background is referenced in Darth Plagueis and Lockdown, but that's minor too. I would say that it's not necessary to see the Mortis episodes to understand Apocalypse, since Luke gives the background of the mission to the other Jedi. Satine is mentioned in Kenobi but not, IIRC, identified as Duchess of Mandalore.

    The comics - can't help there as I haven't read any of the series published since 2008.
     
  14. _Catherine_

    _Catherine_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2007
    I don't think the Abeloth stuff contradicts anything (except maybe common sense). Anything dealing with Maul's background might be more problematic, since in pre-2008 continuity he was born on Iridonia and had Sith tattoos applied by Palpatine, and in TCW he's a human/Zabrak hybrid (?) from Dathomir with Nightbrother tattoos. Not sure to what extent "Restraint," Darth Plagueis, and Lockdown to into all that.

    A lot of people like the Timeline Universe one or the Star Wars Timeline Gold. They're useful references but they both have their issues. I think TalonCard has a pretty comprehensive timeline but I've never seen it.
     
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  15. Zeta1127

    Zeta1127 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    I don't think the Abeloth stuff contradicts anything (except maybe common sense). Anything dealing with Maul's background might be more problematic, since in pre-2008 continuity he was born on Iridonia and had Sith tattoos applied by Palpatine, and in TCW he's a human/Zabrak hybrid (?) from Dathomir with Nightbrother tattoos. Not sure to what extent "Restraint," Darth Plagueis, and Lockdown to into all that.[/quote]

    I imagine the Darth Maul stuff in those three shouldn't be any worse than the 35 BBY Clone Wars in the Thrawn Trilogy.
     
  16. lotusflow3r

    lotusflow3r Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jun 7, 2014
    Many thanks for your replies :)
     
  17. TalonCard

    TalonCard •Author: Slave Pits of Lorrd •TFN EU Staff star 5 VIP

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2001
    It's not so much that that was when the headaches started as it was that they started again just after the last set of headaches had ended. Prior to 1999, most references indicated that the Clone Wars occurred before the time period of TPM, that they involved insane clones attacking the Republic, and that Palpatine was elected president during a period of peace following the conflict.

    After TPM was released we knew that most of that was going to change, but we didn't really have to deal with it until AOTC came out in 2002. A pre-Clone Wars Clone War was offered as a remedy, but it never really caught on.

    The Clone Wars multimedia event was far from smooth sailing too. The original 2-D Clone Wars cartoon, unlike its successor, was never really given preference over the other material which only caused problems when the 2008 cartoon followed its version of the storyline in broad strokes. That cartoon, when taken by itself, indicates that Anakin was made a Knight relatively early in the war and that he met and defeated Asajj Ventress for the first time shortly after she was recruited.

    We were told that some scenes of the cartoon occurred before other scenes, allowing Asajj to appear in several comics taking place before the series. :p There are other examples of the initial Clone Wars releases being generally confusing and contradictory; including two official timelines, conflicting battles on Jabiim, Anakin and Obi-Wan being in two separate planets right before ROTS, and an initially inexplicably dead Dooku. (For which we were given two apparently different explanations. Yay continuity! [face_laugh] )

    Things did settle down for a bit, thanks to retcons and some general handwaving, but Clone Wars continuity was never headache free. Fans (including myself!) have a tendency to fall into the "Everything was fine before X story came out and ruined everything!" mindset, but that depends largely on your definition of "fine". ;)


    I wouldn't worry about the contradictions between TCW and the older Clone Wars stories mucking up your read-through, as it's really not any worse than some other eras. Even if you just read the major novels and comics set between ANH and ROTJ, you'd still end up with lots of contradictory events and unlikely breaks to shoehorn in more stories. TCW is no different.


    The Wrath of Darth Maul is a pretty good blending of all the old and new elements of Maul's history; Maul knows that Sidious found him on Dathomir but he does consider the possibility that he was born on Iridonia. (Whether or not he was actually born there is irrelevant; he needs to at least believe in the possibility as he mentioned it himself in the Darth Maul Journal.)


    Awww. [:D] I email my timeline(s) to whoever is interested. I don't really consider them strictly "mine", though, as I originally made them as a sort of checklist for my own reference, with elements copied uncited from the TFN Timeline, Timetales, and Mavrick's timeline. (Mavrick's timeline is a thing of beauty; color-coded with lots of footnotes.) They're also not nearly as up-to-date as they once were; I used to update monthly. Ah, those were the days...

    TC
     
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  18. Starkeiller

    Starkeiller Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2004
    Star Wars (From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker) was fine until that movie came out in '77 and ruined everything!
     
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  19. TalonCard

    TalonCard •Author: Slave Pits of Lorrd •TFN EU Staff star 5 VIP

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2001
    I'm still waiting to find out who the Emperors were that Darth Vader served after Palpatine but before Palpatine regained the throne. (Somehow.)

    TC
     
  20. HEDGESMFG

    HEDGESMFG Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2010
    Again, I know this timeline is now even further from official than it ever was, but I still find it to be the only 'logical' way to handle the era without just ignoring everything outside of the cartoon itself.

    If anyone wishes to have their separate timelines, the aforementioned timeline Gold is an excellent resource, splitting the two completely. I disagree with that approach, but there we have it.

    Or just follow Chee's chronological order of episodes and leave it at that. I guess I can at least say that despite the cancellation of the show, the s6 finale arc still feels relatively close to ep III both eventwise and timewise, so it doesn't work out too badly for nucanon purists.

    This timeline is meant to be the most sound and logical way that all stories could fit in the era if one wished it to be so. It will never be 100% error free, but that doesn't stop me from experimenting.
     
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  21. ruslan-gonch

    ruslan-gonch Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Sep 10, 2014
    Uhm... Sorry if I just aren't getting somthing, but how did Quinlan Vos become aware of Viento's involvement in Valorum's death? Trackdown implied that it was the reason of Vos's return to Coruscant in the previous story, but now we've got the whole TCW in between. So I don't understand why he went to his tomb in this timeline. If Vos knew about Viento's role before - why it took him so much time to do anything? If Vos realised it recently, everything also seems strange. Yes, Valorum had just died for real, but Viento was dead for years, so it couldnit be him.
     
  22. The Extreme Moderate

    The Extreme Moderate Jedi Grand Master star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 30, 2005
    Hey ruslan-gonch! Thanks for joining, and welcome to the boards! I wish I had access to the materials you are speaking of, but I believe it is Tyrannus that leads Quinlan to believe Viento is behind Valorum's death. Valorum was implied to have been killed by the second Sith, and Dooku further implied that Viento was the second Sith. Thus: Quinlan piecing the two together and beginning his obsession. As for TCW getting in the way of different events in the Clone Wars... that's kind of its calling card, my friend. Often you just have to suspend your disbelief that much more. But in Star Wars, that is par for the course. :)
     
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  23. _Catherine_

    _Catherine_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2007
    Okay someone figure out where Skyewalkers goes so we can all go home.
     
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  24. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
  25. TalonCard

    TalonCard •Author: Slave Pits of Lorrd •TFN EU Staff star 5 VIP

    Registered:
    Jan 31, 2001
    Works for me!

    TC
     
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