Saga The NEW official Hayden vs Shaw thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Lars_Muul, Mar 4, 2010.

Moderators: Darth_Nub, Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn
  1. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Forget all this talk about souls and redemption. This is my simple view:

    When Anakin Skywalker became Darth Vader, he killed his own good side. When he returned to the good side, it was resurrected.
    What we then see is Anakin's good side assuming the form of a ghost which corresponds with how long he, as a good person, has existed.

    That's all, as far as I'm concerned.





    Good and evil - in Star Wars, they are for real
    /LM
  2. ebamf Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 19, 2009
    star 1
    That's what George said as well.
  3. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Yeah. At least, he's thinking along this line.
    I also believe that Luke is right when he says that there is still good in his father. It's dead, but it's there - and it can be resurrected.





    Thoughts wander along
    /LM
  4. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2000
    star 6
    So when exactly does Anakin "come back to life"?

    Is it an instant flip-of-a-switch? At what moment?

    Or does Anakin start to slowly seep out at some point?
  5. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    When he saved Luke. Vader was self-interested, and helping others is not in his character.
    Yeah, it is. I think Vader may have sensed in ROTJ that Luke was becoming stronger than him, and that MIGHT have given him second thoughts about the dark side, but it wasn't until that moment he actually did something out of the goodness in his heart.
  6. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    Anakin's youthful appearance at the end of ROTJ does make sense - it was for the 2004 DVD release, & ROTS was due to be released the following year. GL wanted the audience to have a stronger emotional connection to the character who had been redeemed, & this was more likely to happen if he was portrayed by the actor they'd been watching for two films, not someone who only appeared for a couple of minutes.

    In-universe, you can go back & forth, debating Force theology until the banthas come home - but all it comes down to, right or wrong, is yet another way of strengthening the connection between the OT & PT, whether it makes sense or not. It's the same as changing Boba Fett's voice & putting Ian McDiarmid into ESB.
  7. Brandon Rhea Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2004
    star 5
    There is one simple reason for why I can't really get behind this theory.

    If there's resurrection, there's no redemption.

    Some users have indeed made compelling arguments for why there can be both, such as it still coming down to Vader making a choice, but I personally don't agree. If Vader's good side died, then there was nothing to redeem. Returning to the light in ROTJ would really end up being waking up from a 23-year long nap.
  8. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2000
    star 6
    (sidebar)WAS it out of the goodness of his heart, though? I mean, Luke is his SON, just like Padme was his wife. He's driven just as much by in-the-moment emotion and personal attachment when he kills the Emperor to save Luke as when he kills the Jedi to save Padme - arguably moreso.(/sidebar)

    And if it was the light-switch change you suggest, who has the agency in the change? Who is it that actually resurrects Anakin? If he's dead, Anakin himself can't be fighting to be free. Does Luke send some sort of waves of love/anguish through the Force that pull Anakin's soul back into existence? Or does Vader somehow just weaken to the point that he gives up and says, "I'm out, lemme bring Anakin back to sit in the driver's seat"?
  9. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    My goal with this thread is not really to debate this subject; I'm simply offering my view in the hope that someone might like my take on this and find peace of mind.


    However, just to clear things up a bit: I did not say that Anakin was dead. He vanquished his good side, but his bad side lived on.

    The way I interpret Star Wars suggests that everyone has a bad side and a good side.
    In ROTS, Anakin deliberately choked his good side, because he believed that it was the only way to save Padmé ("Do not hesitate, show no mercy. Only then will you be strong enough with the dark side to save Padmé.").
    When he learned that Padmé had died, he dealt his good side the death blow, because from his point of view, all hope was lost. There was no point for him to live on as a good person, because there was nothing left for that good person to live for.

    Anakin did live on, though - as a bad person. This means that when he allowed his good side to breathe and flourish, he was redeeming himself - or at least beginning to. He deliberately returned to the good side to save Luke's life at the cost of his own. That is the ultimate act of compassion.

    I also agree with Darth_Nub; This ghost change does strengthen the connection between the trilogies.





    Peace of mind - it's nice
    /LM
  10. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2000
    star 6
    So even though Vader when we first meet him in RotS looks just like the Hayden-ghost, he's actually got a bad-side spirit that looks like a baby inside him?
  11. Brandon Rhea Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2004
    star 5
    IMO, that's trying way too hard to make a metaphor out of something very simple. Theories like this that say that Anakin metaphorically died and vanquished the Anakin side of him, IMO, miss the point of the entire thing. He didn't get rid of one side of him. He made a conscious choice to change himself. It's the same person with a different name. It's not two different sides like Jekel and Hyde, but one side that made a choice.
  12. halibut Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2000
    star 8
    ShaneP and I are gonna make this the new official Hayden vs Shaw thread. Hopefully it won't get as heated as last time ;)
  13. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    Bear in mind, I was referring to a strictly out-of-universe, filmmaking point of view. A practical, almost cynical move to connect the trilogies for the general public.

    I don't approve of it as a Star Wars fan. The first face of Darth Vader, in-universe, was that of Hayden Christensen, not the black mask. It was Darth Vader who killed the younglings, it was Darth Vader who choked Padme, it was Darth Vader who duelled Obi-Wan Kenobi on Mustafar. In the terms both Vader & Obi-Wan Kenobi would use, Anakin Skywalker was dead when those things happened.

    However, it was the face of Sebastian Shaw who looked upon his son for the first time after saving him from certain death, & told him he was right - the face of Anakin Skywalker, who had renounced the Dark Side of the Force, & it was that man who should have stood beside his fellow Jedi (even if he could only be considered a former Jedi). It was Sebastian Shaw's face we saw as Anakin for the last time, & at that time, he was no longer Darth Vader.

    To acknowledge Hayden Christensen's visage as the Force Ghost of Anakin Skywalker as proper within the GFFA, it's as if your Force Ghost appears in the form you'd prefer - in which case, why wasn't Obi-Wan the young, proud general of the PT, & Yoda the fit, muscly ten-foot tall warrior he was when he was a mere 300 years old?

    And to answer the obvious question of, "Then why don't they all just look exactly as they would when they died unless something else was going on?" - it's because a burnt, scarred, completely bald husk of a creature with stumps for arms & legs sitting on a stump next to Yoda would have looked pretty disgusting, that's why. It's Star Wars, not Freaks.

    And one more point, story-wise - the vision of the three ghosts was for Luke's benefit. He wanted to see his father after having being redeemed, not someone who might well have been his younger brother. He had no connection to the younger Anakin at all, he wanted to see the man he did know, villain though he may have been, as the good father he'd wanted all along.
  14. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Very good post. The Hayden ghost seems to reinforce Ben's "point of view" speech, but Shaw's ghost also looks more brotherly next to Sir Alec. Part of me is thinking "Look out! It's the bad guy! when I see young Anakin.
  15. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    He always had a bad side along with the good side, so I would guess that it looks about as old as he is ;)
    I'm not trying hard at all. I just thought about it for a moment and came up with this, IMO, simple metaphor which, in Star Wars, is made concrete.
    I'm not suggesting that Anakin metaphorically died. He lived on, as a bad person. He killed the goodness in himself and then brought it back to life, in a very conscious manner.
    It's not a case of schizophrenia or anything like that. Anakin is always conscious of what he is doing.





    Anakin - he is conscious
    /LM
  16. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    I'll hold my fingers crossed :)





    Heat is warm
    /LM
  17. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Yeah, a great subject has returned! Thanks Lars_Muul. :)

    Here's my take:

    I cannot support the idea that that visage of Hayden appears at the end of ROTJ. Why? Because that was after the Tusken massacre and presumably after the slaughter of the younglings at the temple.

    What lesson is Lucas trying to tell us here? That you can be as evil as can be and yet you get your 70's rocker mug back at the end when you kill your master, who you should've killed long before.

    If anything, Lucas should've put little Annie's head atop Shaw's body. That's the innocent Anakin symbolising perpetual youth. That should be the reward, not post-evil acts Anakin.

  18. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Tusken raiders aren't even people. IMO, they're worth less than droids.
  19. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Thanks for "officializing" my thread, Shane and hal ;)

    The way I see it, the ghost reflects how long Anakin has lived as a good person. His goodness still lived in ROTS, so, according to my view, his ghost should look at least 23 years old.





    Mods - they're official
    /LM
  20. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    The personality change due to the dark side is strongly emphasized in both trilogies.
  21. katie9918 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2002
    star 1
    Anakin was there all along, he was just asleep. Which is the reason a bunch of people were booing and throwing stuff at the screen when I went to see it. I refrained from throwing stuff out of respect for the staff at the theater, but I believe I did contribute a rather loud, "Are you KIDDING ME? AND WHY DOES HE HAVE AN EVIL SMIRK ON HIS FACE?"

    Someone a couple of rows back was openly advocating Obi-Wan and Yoda tag-teaming to kick YoungWhinyAnakin's blue ass.

    Sorry, but it was SHAW who thanked Luke for saving him, SHAW should have stayed in. I had a lump in my throat the first time I saw ROTJ on video sometime in the early nineties (born in '81). The SE left me cold (and with a litany of obscenities).

    Thank God I still have that old ROTJ video. I can forget about the bad characterization of Anakin in AoTC and ROTS when I watch it.

    No. Just no.

    Shaw and Guiness looked like the brothers Anakin and Obi-Wan were supposed to be.

    Christensen and Guiness, no. Just reminds of how Anakin ruined everything and Obi-Wan was left to keep hope alive and safe until Anakin finally killed him. Just adds insult to injury.
  22. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 1999
    star 6
    How did you see this in a theater? It was only added for the DVD release.

    Also, Shaw FTW. Anakin at the end of ROTJ is a changed man, changed by his experiences over the years. To take him back in time to before any of that happened negates that. He isn't that person anymore. He's 'on the light side' again, yes, but in a different, wiser(?), more powerful way.
  23. katie9918 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2002
    star 1
    We took over the college theater for three nights to watch the SEs after they came out on DVD.
  24. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    ^ I would like to do something like that, too!
    That is my view as well. I don't see a young-looking ghost as taking Anakin back in time. It's the good part of him that has been allowed to reawaken and take with him everything that he has learned from the mistakes that he made while he was on the dark side.
    He is good again, but he has much more wisdom now than before his turn to the dark side. He has gone beyond Darth Vader and this is symbolized by the fact that he wears a new set of robes. His ghost wears different clothes to emphasize his change in character.





    Clothes - they are significant
    /LM
  25. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Is he personally attached to Luke? Yes. But he was also attached to the dark side. His power. Vader's motivation in the CT is primarily to get Luke on HIS side, not the other way around. Even the Emperor has the same mindset. "Yes, he would be a great asset." And I'm reminded of SEN from THX-1138 "I want to help you. You can help me. Here. Take a biscuit." But Vader doesn't offer rewards of biscuits, he punishes Luke for being "with them"
    BY killing the emperor, Vader loses all his power and his life. Hence, Vader sees the use of compassion in order to save the galaxy.
    My theory today, Vader could always hear Anakin from the netherworld of the force the same way Luke hears Obi-Wan.
    But honestly, maybe the life-death subjectivity in Star Wars is a little too confusing for some people. I can relate. I still don't understand how one man can give up his life to save the whole world, and then come back to life to rule it. Does three days in hell really amount to anything to someone who is eternal? Star Wars might be utter nonsense and beautiful lies. I don't know for sure.
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