Saga The NEW official Hayden vs Shaw thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Lars_Muul, Mar 4, 2010.

  1. katie9918 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2002
    star 1
    Maybe it's just semantics and sentimentality here (or my own inability to just get my head out of the story), but it wasn't Shaw's Anakin I saw getting ready to slaughter a bunch of defenseless children. There's no coming back from that.

    Whoever (Lucas, I presume) directed Christensen for that blue ghost appearance was way off the mark as well. I saw Christensen and I didn't see a changed man. I saw a sly, evilish grin.

    At least Shaw had that open smile on his face and actually was looking at Obi-Wan like he was finally back where he belonged.

    I respect what Lucas says about Anakin v. Vader and the resurrection, but I don't agree with it. It's the same thing as someone doing one terrible thing after another their entire lives and then they honestly repent on their deathbed. Does that erase everything? No, because the sum of who you are is everything you've done, good and bad. I think it's incredibly insulting to human beings everywhere to wave your hand and say, "Oh, but it's okay. He'd already become *Vader* when he did all those terrible things, it wasn't really Anakin." BULL. Unless you want to say Vader had already taken over when he slaughtered the Tuskens (including defenseless children, a pattern developing there), that theory doesn't wash.

    Anakin Skywalker was never a completely good person. Neither was Qui-Gon. Neither was Obi-Wan (though more and more, he's stepping out as the most heroic of the entire bunch, with the probable exception of Luke Skywalker).

    Lucas should have kept Shaw in because, like I said, we are the sum of our life's experiences. Take away everything that happened after Anakin got placed in that suit and it cheapens and diminishes the entire story.
  2. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Tuskens aren't real people, just as Vader isn't a real person, more machine than man in more ways than one. When Anakin was killing those Tuskens, he was just doing it. There was no purpose to the murder, he just hated them for killing the person he loved most. Padme sees this as human. So do I. He blames himself for not being powerful enough to stop people from dying, and that's where the real trouble starts. Padme ends up reminding him that he is NOT alone in his emotions, and that everybody needs help sometimes.

    When Vader kills, its because the Emperor has told him that the Jedi will kill him if he does not do it first. FEAR. He kills the younglings not really out of hate, but without passion. An act of preemptive war. He disassociates and becomes less human in order to gain the upper hand. By the time Padme arrives to help him, he's not even a person anymore. She offers him help and companionship, and he accuses her of being a liar and a betrayer. In truth, Vader hates himself for being liar and betrayer, and assumes everyone but the Emperor is just as weak as he is and cannot be trusted.
  3. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Another Saga & CT Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 1999
    star 6
    Tuskens aren't "real people"? I think the nouns used for them betray this notion. "Men," "women," etc. Hell, we don't generally use those words for chimpanzees and bonobos, our closest living relatives (though one might argue that we could/should). Clearly, Anakin, and the rest of the characters, consider the sand people in some way part of their moral universe.

    Quoted for truth.
  4. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    Now of course I'm notorious around these parts for not having a dog in this fight, but Shaw is the preferable stand-in. As many here have averred that the Force Ghost serves primarily as a reward, it makes sense that Luke should be greeted by a restored, luminescent incarnation of the abomination he had unmasked a few hours prior. Might have proven beneficial in the grieving process.

    Mind you, it's still a crock...but definitely Shaw, yeah. :D
    Valairy Scot and TOSCHESTATION like this.
  5. katie9918 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2002
    star 1
    If Lucas wanted Christensen in that blue ghost shot at the end, he should have bitten the bullet and found a way to replace Shaw with Christensen in the Death Star death scene as well.

    There's a fair chance Luke recognized Shaw!Daddy because he'd at least had a chance to look into his face for a few minutes (as malformed as it was by that point). If I was Luke, I'd be looking at Christensen!Daddy and saying, "Wait, who the **** is this? Where's Anakin Skywalker, my father? Yoda? Obi-Wan? Where's my daddy????"

    And I still hate that smug smirk.
  6. Juan-King Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2004
    star 2

    ............ wow! :eek:

    are you serious ?


  7. katie9918 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2002
    star 1
    And as for Vader not being a real person, I'm sure that makes all the people he killed feel a whole lot better.

    There's so many things wrong with the statement that Tuskens aren't real people. Of course Anakin justified his slaughter with that argument. Slavery was justified with the ridiculous notion that those people weren't really whole people. Hitler justified himself with that argument as well.
    Valairy Scot likes this.
  8. G-FETT Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2001
    star 7
    It does appear Anakin gets away lightly with having to do very little to atone for his wrong-doings. However, Lucas's ultimate message, which has always been there at the end of ROTJ, is that no matter how evil you are, how many bad things you do, if you do the right thing in the end you can be redeamed - Its never too late to do the right thing. Thats quite a positivemessage to teach kids, IMO.

    Anyway, as far as Shaw V Hayden goes, I've never really been fussed to be honest. Shaw never made much sense because he always seemed to old to have such young children. Hayden doesn't make much sense either, but its not really a biggie for me.
  9. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Well, Anakin knew those actions were unjustified for someone who's supposed to become a Jedi. In the Star Wars universe, even droids feel pain. Droids in the clone wars scream "OH MY GOD" when they die. C-3PO finds the act of "machines making machines" to be perverse. The clones come out of test tubes and the Jedi lead them to their death. Even the Jedi treat the military as expendable life.
    "Military men are dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns for foreign policy." - Henry Kissinger
    The very idea of a clone war makes my skin crawl, but is reality any better? Keep in mind that droids, clones, and Tuskens are fictional characters based on typical real-life characters.
    Tuskens kill and torture people for sport. What do WE do with people like that? Oh yeah, we put them in jail and try to have them killed (preferably on TV so we can watch). If there were Tuskens living on your block, killing and torturing your family and friends, would you feel better if Anakin HADN'T killed the lot of them? You'd probably call animal control before trying to reason with them.
    And I never said Vader not being a real person makes anybody feel better. Star Wars isn't exactly a feel-good movie.
  10. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Another Saga & CT Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 1999
    star 6
    Do the tuskens really torture people 'for sport'? It was never clear to me what their motivations were - they could have been picking off settlers to what was once their traditional land, etc. I think the whole reason they were invented (other than to provide a way for Ben Kenobi to appear in ANH) was to have a culture that was incomprehensible, to enhance the naturalistic-yet-weird aspect of the setting. Faceless, possibly alien, using a very different form of language, etc.
  11. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Agreed. The tusken raiders are wonderfully mysterious and they add to the realistic alien feel of the movies.

    I have contemplated this subject further and for argument's sake, I wanted to try something out. Let's say that a sequel trilogy was in the making and that Hayden Christensen would play Anakin in ghost form. Then let's picture a scene where he is talking to his grandchild and part of the dialogue goes like this:

    GRANDCHILD: How can you be my grandfather? You look so young!
    ANAKIN: What you see is the good part of me. I am much older than I look, but I did many bad things in my life. The good that was inside of me was pushed away for a long time, so it didn't grow.

    That explanation might be a bit hard to grasp.
    But how about this:

    GRANDCHILD: How can you be my grandfather? You look so young!
    ANAKIN: Well, I see myself as a young man, because that's how I remember myself. That's probably the reason why I appear like this.

    It seems simpler, more straightforward. I think I might prefer that explanation, actually!





    Simple is good
    /LM
  12. halibut Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2000
    star 8
    I don't know about "torture", but they have no problem trying to kill podracer pilots for sport.
  13. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2000
    star 6
    Neither do half the podracers and their fans...
  14. Juan-King Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2004
    star 2
    you live in a society where men, women and chldren are put in jail and killed on tv ??



    so if a member of your family is killed/tortured then that gives you the right to slaughter an entire village of men women and children ?

    and why would you call animal control ? are you saying they're animals ?




  15. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    [old joke]Oh, I'm sorry, I must have entered the wrong thread. I thought that this was the place for discussing Hayden vs Shaw![/old joke]

    ;)





    Jokes are old
    /LM
  16. Gary_Buchenara Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2009
    star 3
    If "good" Anakin returned when Ani-Vader saved Luke, why did his physical manifestation only return when he died physically?

    If Hayden was to be added, I think he should've been there on the Death Star. As it stands it looks like a bit of an afterthought tack on.

    Also, to me the redemption is more powerful when we see the man who has been through the whole redemption process.

    I'm not saying the current version is wrong, but I still prefer Shaw.
  17. halibut Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2000
    star 8
    If you sit down and watch the saga 1-6, then I think the new change works very well.

    But I can see that an OT purist would prefer Shaw.

    Although a less creepy Hayden would be better ;)
  18. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Another Saga & CT Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 1999
    star 6
    I forgot about that. Though one could make the argument that maybe they were annoyed with intrusions into their territory by loud, fast machines, and were attempting to drive the intruders out. We don't know.
  19. Gary_Buchenara Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2009
    star 3
    The merit of the Tuskens as a race isn't really the issue is it? Anakin didn't wipe them out due to a desire to make the galaxy a better place, he did it in anger.

  20. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Watching them 1-6 makes the Yub-Nub sequence a little too short, and the image of Hayden offers a lot more closure, even if he's glaring in the wrong direction....
  21. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    But that's exactly what the Shaw ghost does. You might notice it's not burned, scarred, hairless, and limbless; it's as if the events in ROTS never happened. Neither alteration in the condition of the ghost actually goes back in time and alters history.
  22. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Another Saga & CT Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 1999
    star 6
    The condition erases his mechanization, it's true. But the same de-robotification is done to the young ghost. So neither one uses that as a visual cue for changes in Anakin's person. Age, however, is a handy tool for denoting just such a thing.
  23. Gary_Buchenara Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2009
    star 3
    Neither ghost is a literal image of Anakin at the time of his death. The fact that the ghost is limbed, not mutilated and has hair symbolizes the healing which has occurred. Making him young, though, seems to go one step further. Not only is Anakin healed of the wounds of his time as Darth Vader, but that time is removed all together.

    The other problem I have is that Anakin wasn't at his best as a person before he was Darth Vader, but rather after he was Darth Vader. I think that point is somewhat lost with the younger ghost image.

  24. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    A little context here:

    PT - despite what Yoda says to Ben towards the end of ROTS, Anakin's words and actions in AOTC/ROTS show otherwise.

    OT - 'in-universe', the "personality change due to the d.s." statements by Ben and Yoda are thanks to the 'agenda' that they have with Luke, and maybe also due to their possible unawareness* of Anakin's motivations for turning to the dark side in the first place.

    *given events in the PT...with the OT by itself, I would never have thought that Ben and Yoda were partially unaware of the 'why'


    OT - 'real-world', the "p.c.d.t.t.s :p axiom"** is thanks to the fact that circa the first movie, Anakin and Darth Vader were literally two different people and Ben (and Yoda at first, in TESB) made statements which reflected that fact. Then when it was fully 'revealed' in the third movie that the two characters were actually the same person, Lucas couldn't go back and 'undo' those earlier statements, hence the equivocation and 'certain points of view' regarding Anakin when he turned, topped-off by the 'axiom'** in place since 2003/2004.


    ** an 'axiom' that apparently only applies to Anakin S. when HE turns to the dark side - but not to Palpatine or Count Dooku
  25. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    When you put on a Darth Vader mask, you ARE Darth Vader. It's really not that complicated.
    You walk into a room of pre schoolers dressed as Darth Vader, they freak out.
    Take the mask off, not so scary. Why? Not Darth Vader.

    Palpatine and Count Dooku were political figures, and their use of the dark side has more to do with deception. Naturally, they would pose as their former selves in order to gain power over others. Padme could recognize that Anakin had changed personalities, and Anakin wasn't willing to admit it. He wasn't the Anakin who told her terrible things he did to the Tuskens, he was a jealous man rationalizing his deeds, trying to lie to Padme. Do you REALLY think that's the same Anakin in Episodes II and III?

    It's kind of like a drunk who turns into someone else every time they drink. Only Vader happens to wear a bottle of Jack Daniels to keep his body alive, killing his soul.