Saga The NEW official Hayden vs Shaw thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Lars_Muul, Mar 4, 2010.

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  1. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4

    Those first two paragraphs seem to contradict one another. In the first, you say that 'when one puts on the mask , one IS Darth Vader'. Then in the second, you point out that Anakin is essentially Darth Vader or a 'different person' at those moments of ROTS that you mention, which is before he even puts on the suit and the mask*. So which one is it?

    *yet Padme still calls him Anakin, and more interestingly, so does Ben, despite what Yoda told him, during their fight on Mustafar.


    My point was to put Ben and Yoda's 'different personality' statements into context.


    And the ease at which they were able to 'pose' as their 'former selves' is probably due to the fact that they were STILL their 'former selves', albeit influenced now by the dark side.



    And yes, I do 'REALLY' think that it's the same Anakin in Eps II and III.
  2. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    I could say Anakin was wearing a mask of sorts before the immolation scene, since he was in transformation. I could even say Anakin was already burning on the inside before he got burnt to a crisp.
    Everything is more enjoyable when you play along.
  3. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    Why not just say he ignored his good side?

    It was always there....he just ignored it. Pretty simple, really. No need to embellish.
  4. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    TOSCHISTATION: I agree. Anakin is always Anakin. Over the course of the Saga, he does go through a personality change and his body is injured beyond repair, but that doesn't make him another person.
    I have changed a great deal since I was a kid, but I am still me. The cells that make up my body today didn't exist 20 years ago, but it's still the same body. It has never disassembled itself, it just replaces dead cells with new ones.

    Also, I would argue that the personality traits of Anakin as Darth Vader were present already in TPM, although undeveloped.

    MBJ: I agree with you, as well :) Anakin ignored his good side and at length forgot about it ("It is the name of your true self, you've only forgotten").





    Traits - they develop
    /LM
  5. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Ignored?o_O
    Yeah I can buy that. Unfortunately, it's not half as interesting, nor is it any more true.
  6. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Tell that to the citizens of Alderaan.

    Oh wait, you can't, because someone blowed them up real good.

    Not at all. Furthermore, his are not the only relevant words and actions here.

    [image=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_apS4bH6svM0/SWU9V7TKofI/AAAAAAAAA6Y/Ehpw7BCGalU/s400/Yoda%27sAdvice.jpg]

    Palpatine's been on the dark side since well before the beginning of TPM. Try again.
  7. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 1999
    star 6
    I just thought of something. As Star Wars mythology seems to follow the common human cognitive conception of people as having "souls" or some essential "being" beyond physical matter, it'd make sense for Anakin's "soul" to be whole, even if his body wasn't, and for the physical manifestation of his "soul" to reflect this.

    And/or, as a previous poster pointed out, the matter one's body is composed of changes over time, as atoms and molecules are swapped out, and cells die and are replaced. These are all physical processes, presumably affected by the Force like every other aspect of spacetime in Star Wars. When Jedi die, they become one with the Force - perhaps able to see and affect the universe in ways undreamed of by living beings. Perhaps Anakin, though contact with the Force, pulled himself/was pulled back together - not unlike Dr. Manhattan. This makes sense because it may not be ONLY the "soul" that becomes one with the Force - the body disappears too. I guess it could be just disintegrating, as if it's not important anymore. But the answer to whether that was the intent, we may never know.
  8. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    :oops: Hence the inconsistency of the young, 20-something Anakin ghost.



    They are a big part of establishing his character. And furthermore, I've already dealt with the other 'relevant' words here, namely those of Ben and Yoda across both trilogies.


    Oh, I get it. So the fact that the audience wasn't given an opportunity to see Palpatine before his turn*, is 'proof' or 'evidence' that his personality 'changed' C.P.O.V.-style upon turning to the dark side. Interesting.

    *Nor Dooku for that matter.


    Yoda's 'advice' is not evidence that Yoda knew the 'whole story'. "Try again."
  9. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    If someone gave you a jigsaw puzzle, would you make a diagram about why it doesn't fit?
  10. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    Except we're talking about a movie here, not a jigsaw puzzle.
  11. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Have you TRIED piecing the trilogies together? The PT is kinda puzzling on its own.
  12. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    Of course....how many puzzles do you know of that were broken up into 6 larger pieces, the creation of which was started in the middle, and then leapfrogged from the end to the beginning, all of which took place over 30 years?

    That would be one heck of a messed-up puzzle! [face_laugh];)
    TOSCHESTATION likes this.
  13. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    You neglected to mention the three augmented puzzle pieces, which replaced the original middle-pieces just before the new-beginning pieces were brought to market. (And weren't those pieces subsequently chucked, just before the inclusion of the last of the new-beginning pieces?)

    Man, this is the kinda stuff Captain Kirk would spout in order to short-circuit all those malevolent supercomputers.
    TOSCHESTATION likes this.
  14. halibut Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2000
    star 8
    On my copy of the film, that was Tarkin, not Vader :p
  15. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4

    lol@MebeJedi and drg4...



    OT Vader gets blamed for EVERYTHING...:_| [face_whistling]
  16. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Yep. The turn was altered from its original course, so why not change the end? They weren't the same Vader anyways. One Vader joined the dark side in the name of power, the other joined the dark side in the name of Padme. From a CT, purist-POV.

    (I should prolly run and duck for cover)

    Seriously... even in death Ani seemed emo.:D He looks like he's ready start the purge all over again in afterlife. :p

    ***
    EDIT:
    Yoda could not have known his true motivations because Anakin wasn't honest and forthright with the little green Master. Although it strikes me as odd that Yoda wouldn't ask WHO the premonitions were about. Given how he was prone meditate on things and stuff...
  17. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    Exactly. Vader was too busy restraining the lady he just tortured and making her watch the fallout.

    Cut the big guy some slack. He's really, really tragic. :rolleyes:
  18. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Sorry, I just had to: FIX IT. :p
  19. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    Holy cow! That makes him super-tragic!

    Thanks SSS. I am like so totally invested in Vader's redemption now. :D
  20. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    He probably knew who Anakin was dreaming about.
  21. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
  22. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
  23. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    Everyone was dreaming about Padme......she's HAWT!!!
  24. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    continued from the "Qui-Gon vs. Dooku" thead (more appropriate in this thread):

    It did seem that we were only talking about ROTJ.


    However, the latter - "he's not the same person anymore" - does not logically follow from the former - i.e. "he's mechanical". Ben was only 'right' - "in a sense" - that Vader, at that moment, WAS 'twisted and evil'.


    Yeah, the idea that Ben believed it to be so, but not that it was necessarily correct.


    No, he's not 'lying'. He is however attempting to justify a previous lie, and with his choice of words trying to get Luke to share in his biased view so as to make it 'easier' for Luke to destroy Vader (or at least be prepared to do so).

    He need not be 'lying' in order to be wrong or mistaken, anyhow.


    I brought it up because you brought up 'context'. The very real-world historical origin of that POV is part of the 'context' of why Ben had to* frame things the way he did, given the Father-Vader change of story.

    *or at least CHOSE to frame it that way, in terms of not admitting that it was a lie (unlike Yoda, who 'admitted' it, but not in so many words)
  25. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    an in-universe character can't make an excuse for an out-of-universe change in story. ever since that retcon took place, Episode IV Ben was referring to Vader's dark mechanical nature killing good-side Anakin.
    in star wars, a droid is not equal to a person. they have feelings, but not midichlorians, or really a conscience either. they're programmed to serve. In ROTJ Anakin is whole and Vader is part-droid. when vader/anakin says "let me see you through my own eyes" who's talking, whose eyes are he looking through?
    this differentiation of personalities is the only justification of Vader being rewarded Jedi robes in the afterlife. It's NOT Vader.
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