Saga The NEW official Hayden vs Shaw thread

Agreed. By the time Anakin dies, Vader is no more.
Vader is Anakin, however.





Anakin/Vader = Audio/Video?
/LM

 

Are you seriously making the argument that Anakin became more "whole" when the lenses over his eyes were removed? I didn't see Anakin's limbs magically reappearing when the helmet was removed, did you?

Anakin and Vader are the same body....what changed was what was in his heart! You are completely missing the forest for the suit.

 

This is what I said:

I was speaking in terms of 'in-universe' there. So I was saying that he was making an 'excuse' for something said in the story itself (what he told Luke). The 'out-of-universe' element was mentioned in another context.

No, Ben mentioned the 'dark mechanical nature' after Luke said "there's still good in him". He said earlier that it was Anakin's turn to the dark side which "killed" the 'good' Anakin, not the Vader the suit.*

*are we back to saying that there is 'no' Vader until the suit/helmet?

Which didn't become an 'issue' in the movies until the PT..."Luminous beings are we..not this crude matter." - Yoda, TESB. I am of course talking in terms of Vader being a 'droid', not droids in general.

His own. He wants to see Luke without the 'aid' of the helmet eyes...ie he doesn't want that 'barrier' for once.

The 'differentiation of personalities' is not the 'only' justification (I don't believe it's a 'justification' at all). Vader did something at the end which allowed him to return to the good side - hence the reward.

And, as Lars Muul said, Vader is Anakin.


edit to add:

What he said.

 

Shaw represented not only the good person that always lived inside Anakin, but also the person who survived the nightmare of being Darth Vader. Putting Hayden in there really de-emphasizes that very important detail. Why would I want to see Anakin in the form he had before he became Vader? That person cannot possibly return in any way. Time passed. Things changed. You can't reverse time, can you? Anakin turned to the dark side and his ghost should reflect his appearance after his redemption, not before.

 

I'd like to also point out that these films, along with Luke's and Anakin's stories, are meant to be metaphors for ourselves. The relationships and conflicts in these films are very much like those in our own galaxy, which is why we are able to relate to them so well. To throw in this ridiculous "He's dead/ressurected" scenario completely ignores the fact that such cannot be repeated in our own world. If you take away the lightsabers, space ships, aliens and the Force, and focus on the characters, you will see that Anakin was tricked into believing that what he knew to be wrong was his "only choice", and became a slave to his desire for power. This kind of thing happens in our world all the time. The first step of any chemical-dependence program is to admit there is a problem. Anakin was in denial....that's all there is to it. He made hasty decisions in anger, and was unwilling to accept responsibility for his actions. It was easier to parade around as someone else than to aknowledge that he had been misled and made terrible mistakes.

But does anyone in our world "die" and come back as someone else, and then magically turn back to their former self? Nope. It doesn't have a real world analog.

 

I have to say, that's an odd argument for someone who doesn't believe he was redeemed.

Nonetheless, I agree with you.

 

See, I feel that Return of the Jedi is the first movie that actually introduced me to the in-universe concept of metaphorical "rebirth". And I totally agree about these movies relating to our own lives. If we allow ourselves to take the mask off our anger and lust for power, we see it for what it really is. Scar tissue. I'm not really saying Darth Vader became a different entity when the mask was removed, though I could, because I'm like that. I'm just saying the placement and removal of the mask can easily be seen as symbolic of the hate Vader carries around. I'm not saying the mask wasn't stuffy either. I know there's a very cut-and-dry story going on, but the movies are such that we can have it both ways.

 

So I see

I have no problem with the metaphor-aspect of it, and as such, that needn't be an either/or scenario. My problem is when folks try to take that metaphor and apply it as being what is truly happening in those scenes. I'm reminded of the scene in Good Will Hunting, when Will tells Skylar that he doesn't love her. Everyone - Will, Skylar, the audience - knows he does, but is acting out of self-preservation to protect his feelings. He's scared, and is cutting her off, even to the extent of lying to himself. Only later does he realize the mistake he made, as well as the reasons why he acted that way. Anakin's acts are a very exaggerated form of this self-deception...but at no point does he become someone else in terms of an alternate personality....Otherwise, as was pointed out, there is no real redemption, because this means that "Anakin" did not commit "Vader's" crimes.

 

The ghost's appearance, whatever it may be, has to be purely for Luke's benefit right? There is no other reason for Ben to appear like he's walking around, sitting on a log, it has to be for Luke to react to. So if Anakin has chosen to appear a certain way, why choose to appear as the child-killer? Wouldn't he choose to appear as something new and benevolent?

 

Not an alternate personality but a change in personality, ideals, and eventually overall appearance. An actual shadow of his former self. Lucas somewhat heavy-handedly intercut the Vader-Frankenstein birth with the twins' birth to drive that point home, but then also had Vader ask how Padme was doing. He hadn't gone totally cyborg.

 

So if Anakin has chosen to appear a certain way, why choose to appear as the child-killer? Wouldn't he choose to appear as something new and benevolent?


Why does it matter who Anakin looked at the end of ROTJ? I just don't see why everyone is making a big deal about it. Regardless of whether he looks like Hayden Christiansen or Sebastian Shaw, he is spiritually something new.

 

He's not new per se, just back to being himself, post-Vader. A visual representation of this was Shaw's image. It made perfect sense.

His life was a journey. A good-bad-good type of story. With Hayden there, you get good-bad-??. The visual reference of Shaw standing there in ghost form is very important to the essence of the story. Heck, it's linear and logical to boot.

 

I wasn't going to join in, but what the heck. Why resist the fun?

Probably because he remembers himself as a young man. In my opinion, it is very far-fetched to assume that he would see himself as an old man with a face like Sebastian Shaw's because he MIGHT have looked like that if things had gone differently.
BTW: No matter what he looks like, he is guilty of every crime that he ever committed.

Yes he is, and I believe that his robes emphasize that fact.

Yes, it did. In that version, Anakin's appearance wasn't affected by his memory of himself. It showed us that the spirit was indestructible and that no matter how mutilated Anakin's physical self would get, his spiritual identity would remain intact (a notion that I don't necessarily agree with, but it's interesting nonetheless).

I find that view rather perplexing. I think it should be obvious, regardless of what Anakin's ghost looks like, that he is good again.

It's certainly linear and it does have its merits from a logical standpoint, but "very important"? If you view the spirit as an incorruptible entity, then I suppose you could see it that way.





Fun - it's irresistible
/LM

 

It shouldn't, yet Lucas changed it, so obviously it mattered to him. (Though not enough to let Hayden know why he was filming him at that particular moment.....interesting)

 

Obviously it doesn't matter in a life or death sense and at the end of the day, whether it be Shaw or Christensen, we get what GL is driving at.

The reason some people find it fairly significant, I think, is that it's a very short and completely visual scene, so the feeling that's created by the image is profoundly affected by what, or who, is there. The feeling I used to get was one of 'older and wiser', as opposed to what I see now, which is 'turning back the clock'. Regardless of what I know about what the intention was, I can't help it, and I'm not sure I like it as much.

But that's just me.

 

You're not alone.

While researching info for another thread, I ran across this from the Annotated Screenplays. Ironically, I've had this in my notes for many years, but it never really clicked until reading it just now:

 

If Anakin didn't appear as Hayden, how would Luke know where he got his bad hair from?

 

* giggle * Can't beat that logic.

 

I don't really care either way, but I'd say the key is "luminous beings are we, not this crude matter." Looking like a 20-something who mowed down younglings doesn't mean he is a 20-something. Looking like a Werther's loving, kindly ol' grandpa doesn't make him that either. He's a presence in the Force at this point, not a man. I think all we have to know is that the presence represents Anakin, and to convey that the ghost image could be young, youngish, or old. Anyways, I could make a case for either. Luke seeing an old man might stress the father/son bond more than the alternative, while Luke seeing a younger looking ghost might downplay the sentiment a bit and instead speak of a certain distance that will always remain between Luke and the memory of his father despite Anakin's actions to save Luke.

 

In all my years of talking about the OT, I've NEVER heard anyone say that Luke was adversely affected by seeing his father as the same age as the man he saw in the suit. I think it's arguably clear that seeing a much younger version of his father - almost the same age as himself - would be much weirder to Luke. One need only watch Back to the Future to see the truth in that scenario.

 

Well said, ezekiel.

MBJ, that was an interesting quote. Anakin has to suffer until he does enough good... Interesting, indeed!





Make them suffer!
/LM

 

I dunno. If I saw my father's 23-year old spirit, I'd probably think, "Cool, he got a fresh start."

 

And yet, he didn't, since he's a ghost either way.....unless you think a younger Force ghost would be more attractive to the ghost ladies in the afterlife?

 

I think you misunderstood what I said. I meant stress as in "to emphasize" or "to highlight," not to cause strain or tension. Obviously seeing the old man emphasizes the newly developed father/son bond. That seems preferable if you're after the more sentimental visual. And, yes, the young ghost would be a bit weirder from Luke's POV, and thus my point that Luke's memory of his father could understandably be a "remember the bad as well" type of thing.