Saga The NEW official Hayden vs Shaw thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Lars_Muul, Mar 4, 2010.

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  1. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
  2. katie9918 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2002
    star 1
    Honestly (and I do respect the opinions of everyone here), but Shaw with Guiness and the Yoda puppet in RotJ always represented the true spirit of Anakin Skywalker coming back to himself after a long, terrible journey through there. Luke redeemed the old man within the Vader suit. Erase that and it just makes the entire OT (and the twenty years between trilogies) superfluous. It negates the journey Luke took in listening to what Ben and Yoda had to say, but choosing instead to believe that even after all that time, there was still something in Vader that was Anakin Skywalker and he just needed *someone* to believe in him enough to risk everything to get through to him.

    Shaw, to me, represents the true journey and spirit of the OT.

    Honestly, the last time I really felt that PT Anakin was someone we should be rooting for was when Jake Lloyd portrayed him in Episode I. There was no tragedy in the PT Anakin because by the Episode II rolled around, he was thoroughly unlikeable. And had Lucas bothered to tell Christensen that he was filming him to replace Shaw, maybe Christensen would have been able to play it a bit more like Shaw did. But there was no fond gratitude, no essence of comradeship with Obi-Wan and Yoda that Shaw managed to portray in less than a minute, there was nothing. It takes me completely out of the moment and, yes, I do feel robbed of that shining moment. It's cheapened and lessened by the substitution of this guy who really wasn't that great a friend to Obi-Wan and Yoda after all.

    I have nothing but respect for Christensen and what he tried to do with the role of younger Anakin. But that moment belonged to the Shaw Skywalker who'd finally come back to himself after so many years of being lost in his own darkness.
    Valairy Scot likes this.
  3. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    They can sit on rocks, right? Who says they can't..."

    Never mind. ;)
  4. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    Can't what?!? :confused:








    * giggle * :p
  5. Timstuff Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2008
    star 1
    The explanation for why Lucas replaced Shaw with Christensen is just plain stupid. If that was true then Anakin should have existed as a force ghost even while Darth Vader was still alive. Anakin turned evil, but then he turned good again and died. The ghost we saw at the end of the original ROTJ was ghost of the man who died in Luke's arms on the death star, while in the new one it's the ghost of what he looked like 20 some odd years ago. It's stupid, and it doesn't make sense no matter what "point of view" you look at it from.

    Also, the image of Shaw as Anakin's ghost is an icon of the Star Wars franchie. I know Lucas has the right to mess with his movies if he wants to, but some things should be considered sacred.
  6. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    Well, Lucas himself has disparaged the OT a number of times, and the PT has been released on home video with very few edits, so it's clearly the red-headed stepchild of the Saga.
  7. Lady_Skywalker87 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2008
    star 3
    well, if look at it closely it seems Hayden's face was actually taken from the farewell scene between Ani & Obi in ROTS- Ani is happy about the praise he receves but uncomfortable with it because he knows deep down he dosen't deserve it- the same concept applies to the ending in ROTJ as well as being a tie between the trilogies, wich is why I like it so much more than Shaw's Carebare happy ghost after 23 years of blood on his hands. However, I agree that it could have been done better, stating with informing Hayden of what Lucas was planing.

    Just putting my 2 cents in!
  8. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    Timstuff, you and I agree for once. :p;)


    When it comes to "23 years of blood on his hands", how is the 'happy Shaw ghost' any WORSE than the Hayden C. version???


    Agreed.
  9. Lady_Skywalker87 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2008
    star 3
    When it comes to "23 years of blood on his hands", how is the 'happy Shaw ghost' any WORSE than the Hayden C. version???[/quote]

    To me, Shaw seems way too light hearted and happy, while Hayden looks happy but also looks like he knows he dosen't deserve anything after all the pain he'd caused. That's why I believe it better.
  10. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    You think it's better even knowing that Lucas didn't 'plan' for Hayden to look the way he did?

    To me, I think it makes sense that Shaw would be 'too happy', given the circumstances.
  11. Lady_Skywalker87 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2008
    star 3
    YES! Shaw looks like the past 23 years didn't happen at all...does that make sense?
  12. Gary_Buchenara Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2009
    star 3
    SHAW looks like the 23 years didn't happen, when Hayden looks like he did BEFORE the 23 years happened?

    Anakin has just been redeemed and he's looking on with absolute pride at his son, who's just saved the galaxy. Of course he's happy.

    Older, wiser, happier. That's what he should look like and that's what Shaw does look like.

    Valairy Scot likes this.
  13. Danaan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2008
    star 4
    For me, the most important reason why Shaw is better than Christensen is that Shaw represents the only moment in Anakin's life when he is actually at peace with himself and the universe (i.e. as he dies, redeemed by his son).
  14. Lady_Skywalker87 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2008
    star 3
    ^ yeah, but don't you think he feels regret for what he did?
  15. Danaan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2008
    star 4
    Sure he could. Demanding that Shaw shows regret instead of relief from that split-second expression we get, is, however, overstating that expression's importance in relation to the symbol of the complete and harmonious Anakin that Shaw represents and Christensen never did.
  16. Gary_Buchenara Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2009
    star 3
    ^ ^ ^ Well put. There's only a few seconds of visual image and no further explanation given, so what's needed is the essence of the most important message about the redemption.
  17. Lady_Skywalker87 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2008
    star 3
    ^^True...still Shaw is way too happy for my taste. I guess is matter of percetion. BTW, Thanks for not bitting my head off guys, I appreciate it.[:D]
  18. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    No more inconsistent than the unburned, unscarred, fully limbed Shaw ghost with a whole new wardrobe and hair. In both cases the bad things that happened in the galaxy didn't magically un-happen, time wasn't actually reversed.

    You don't see the dead rebels rising from their graves, do you?

    You're the one offering Palpatine as a counterexample, without evidence.

    There's also Obi-Wan listening in on the conversation between Anakin and Padme. But why go by what actually happened in the film, when it's easier to blindly follow the latest basher theory du jour?
  19. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Now now, let's not make this more heated than it has to get.
    I agree that it's possible for Obi-Wan to suspect, or even know full well, what made Anakin turn to the dark side. Since we never actually see him listening in on Anakin and Padmé's conversation, though, we can't know this for sure.
    Given Obi-Wan's attunement to the Force and how well he knows Anakin, though, one can easily assume that he senses what's going on, even though he might not want to admit it.

    That's interesting, actually. The latter would be most fitting if there was a sequel trilogy in the making...





    Heat - it's unnecessary
    /LM
  20. Gary_Buchenara Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2009
    star 3
    I don't really think it's an argument about consistency / logic. You can come up with a decent explanation of why either is preferable on logical grounds.

    Also, I don't think anyone's suggesting that the Shaw ghost is an absolute representation of the physical post-Vader Anakin (are they?) It never has been. He's able bodied, unburned etc etc.

    I argue in favour of Shaw on a purely symbolic level. The Shaw symbol better portrays the power of the redemption which has occurred IMHO. When you put an image in place which is clearly from a time before the events which enabled the redemption to occur, you downplay the significance of those events, and therefore, of the redemption.
  21. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    That doesn't stop certain posters from arguing against straw-men, though.


    Agreed. However, the same individual who argues against straw-men, will argue that the Hayden image can't be from the 'time before' those events, since Hayden is wearing robes that the young, 20-something Anakin never wore*....

    *Ignoring that the reason Anakin is 'wearing' Jedi robes in that ghost scene is because Hayden's head was 'pasted via optics on top of Shaw's Jedi robe-wearing body.
  22. katie9918 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2002
    star 1
    And can someone please tell me why Hayden's Anakin was always dressed in such dark clothes when compared to nearly every other Jedi in all three prequel movies?

    When did Lucas lose his subtle touch?

    It's like, "Uh, we know he turned to the Dark Side. You don't have to dress him in dark clothes to emphasize the point, buddy."

    Seriously, all the other Jedi (and the REAL ROTJ Anakin) were dressed similarly to Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon and then along comes arrogant bratty Anakin dressed in dark clothes.

    Come to think of it, that's one of the first reasons I didn't like him in Ep III.
  23. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2000
    star 6
    And, again, the ending is not about Anakin, it's about Luke. The ghost doesn't appear to Luke to say, "Look, I'm here - and boy do I feel guilty!" but to say, "You did good, son. I'm proud of you. Thank you."

    Whatever regret he might be feeling internally, he's going put on a smile for his son.
  24. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Anakin's been 'wearing' robes in that scene since the theatrical cut, so that's just more bizarre reasoning. It's still the same character, at least from a CPOV. The sane one.
  25. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    When he had a reasonably sized Rebel blockade runner be chased by an insanely huge Imperial star destroyer that took about half a movie to pass by the camera :p

    Seriously, I see where you come from. I was surprised, myself, when I saw Anakin wearing a dark oufit already in AOTC. There are other Jedi with dark clothes, such as Aayla Secura and Luminara Unduli, but Anakin is the only main character, among the Jedi, to sport the dark look.
    It gives him a cocky, rockstar kind of edge that I think suits his character, though.

    ...an edge that is long since gone in the ghost scene ;)





    Edges - they are suitable
    /LM
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