Saga The NEW official Hayden vs Shaw thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Lars_Muul, Mar 4, 2010.

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  1. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    "Dissonance".....that's a good way of putting it.

    ROTJ, post-Hayden change:

    Luke: "who the heck are you (talking to the ghost)? Did I have a younger brother?"
  2. oierem Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
    When I first saw Hayden at the end of Return of the Jedi, I really understood the meaning of the title: the lost Jedi, the Jedi who has been trapped for decades, has returned. And it always works emotionally for me. Much more rewarding, from a saga point of view, than Shaw. And a more surprising moment as well (we've already had the shock of seing an old and weak man inside the suit).
    I don't need to go into further explanations and arguments about the logic of a Force ghost to justify my preference. Witnessing the Return of Anakin (Hayden) is an emotional moment, and that's enough for me.
  3. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    bump!!!

    With all due respect, oierem, did you only see the OT in the 'context' of the six-movie saga? What I wanted to know is how you initially viewed the Shaw ghost....and why exactly is Hayden 'more emotionally satisfying' to you?
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Oct 17, 2012
  4. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    From the "That Old Anakin" thread in the Classic forum:

    ^^^^^This.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Oct 17, 2012
    sinkie likes this.
  5. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    I can relate to this, but actually the young-man Anakin reflects this as well.
    You COULD say that the image of the old man reflects the long way this character has come without the context of the full six-film saga, but the image of the young man resonates better with people who cared about Anakin's entire story.
    Jarren_Lee-Saber likes this.
  6. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    How does the young image show Anakins entire story? If anything I would think this image shows only a part of Anakins life.
    The older person shows his entire life until his death. Anakin doesn't cease to exist after RotS, he was there all along.
    Trapped in anger and darkness, twisted by the Dark Side and his own hate. But the character of Anakin lived on for another twenty years, until he finally shattered his own chains and found his way out of the darkness.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
    Valairy Scot likes this.
  7. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    What I mean is, you get to see the young man's face after 3 films of it being burnt off/hidden, and if you care about Anakin's life in the prequels, you'll be happy to see it again.
    Seeing the face of the actor from Episode III really drives the "trapped" part home, actually. He's been trapped in a suit, a body that doesn't work, and metaphorically stuck on Mustafar hurting the ones he loves. Don't forget, the good was in him all along. A new actor playing Anakin's spirit kinda betrays that concept.
  8. sinkie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2004
    star 1
    Fun! I got to "like" my own post basically!!! [face_dancing] 4up^^^ Actually, I'm just really liking the liking of it...
  9. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    :confused: How does Shaw 'betray' the concept that the good was in him all along?? How does the fact that Anakin, like everyone else, physically ages , 'betray' the good part?
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Oct 18, 2012
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  10. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    It betrays the concept described in the entire paragraph, of an Anakin trapped and subsequently released, not the idea that there is good in him.:)
  11. sinkie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2004
    star 1
    But trapped in his older body? His older self? Isn't he now very much this guy? He is still Anakin now, he has reclaimed that name post-becoming Vader. Anakin-the-younger isn't the one and only Anakin. Anakin is also the guy who screwed up and got knighted "Darth Vader" in an office tower a few decades earlier, went on to help build an Empire, hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights, get reunited with his son, try to turn him to the dark side and then having a change of heart throwing his evil master down the well. This too is also Anakin. The Anakin at the end of ROTJ is the culmination of all his decisions and deeds. Older Anakin is far from a betrayal of anything. There never was a "perfect" Anakin. Anakin is Anakin is Anakin all the way along. It is only convenient he gets to change his name. Part of his redemption is facing up to this fact. There was actually no "trapped". Other than the idea that he'd been slowly building towards trapping himself in confusion and hatred all the way along. He is released from this but visually speaking, the younger Anakin was a part of that process, a part of building that trap itself.

    Once he became Vader his trap was made physical and he accepted it, maintained it, but it wasn't until he kills the Emperor that he fully abandons all aspect of the "trap", his selfishness, his hatred and the mask. But the mask reveals...the Anakin he is now, older, and altered by his experiences. The only fault I find in Shaw at the end is that he isn't hideously disfigured as a ghost...but this kind of would have been pretty horrifying for kids maybe, not to mention not such a happy ending. But hey, Shaw standing there in the unmasked Vader look? Might have worked.
    Last edited by sinkie, Oct 18, 2012
    Valairy Scot likes this.
  12. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I'm fine with it being either Hayden or Shaw. I grew up during the Prequel trilogy so I probably lean more towards Hayden. At the time I first watched the Hayden version of the scene back in 04 I thought he was fine in AOTC and was about to go through hell in ROTS but was able to get through it all and still be the same.
    Jarren_Lee-Saber likes this.
  13. oierem Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
    Not sure if I understand your question... I saw the OT first, and I was always satisfied with Shaw's Anakin, and I loved the old Yub Nub song, to be honest. I saw the prequels later, and I happened to like them as much as the OT. And the fact that I relate to Hayden's Anakin during the PT makes it a "more emotionally satisfying" moment when he's "back" in episode VI. It's not something rational, it's just how it fees for someone who is watching the whole saga in order and became attached to Anakin before he turned...
    Jarren_Lee-Saber likes this.
  14. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    OK, oierem. I see where you're coming from, now.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Oct 18, 2012
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  15. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I can only speak for myself, obviously, but I would imagine that many of people who prefer Hayden to Shaw do so not because they think that Shaw is "bad" or out of any dislike for him. Rather, I think it's merely just that Hayden is preferred and seen as a better alternative. At least, that's my take on it. Besides the fact that I have a greater emotional attachment to Christensen as Anakin, I also think there's a lot of very nice symbolism and rounding out of his arc by including him. That, and I've never liked that Anakin is older than Obi-Wan, but that's not really a major point, more of a pet peeve to be honest.

    Where I find criticism of Hayden rather of problematic is when people feel the need to project things onto to him that just aren't there. Like the idea that he's "creepy." The footage for that scene was taken from testing and a costume fitting. I hardly think there's anything creepy about that and it just seems like an excuse to bash. It's perfectly fine to prefer Shaw to Christensen or argue that Christensen doesn't fit, but saying he's "creepy" just seems, well, rather mean-spirited to me.
  16. Jarren_Lee-Saber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2008
    star 4
    OMG Deja Vu!
    When I took a hiatus 2 years ago this was being discussed.....and now, its STILL being discussed!

    I prefer Hayden: because it links together the whole Saga, because it shows him how he was the last time he was on the Light Side, because Hayden IS Anakin, and because you've never seen Shaw before it leaves you wondering "who in the world is that?".

    Just my opinion. It was my favorite of Lucus' edits
  17. sinkie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2004
    star 1
    So were you also confused when Vader took his helmet off on DS II? Were you like "who in the world are you!? And what did you do with Anakin you potato-headed monstrosity!?!?!"
    Last edited by sinkie, Oct 19, 2012
  18. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    In the end, it's all opinions. To me, we saw an older Anakin die, back on the light side, ghost should be that same (but healed) older Anakin who "came through the dark side" before dying.

    With that said, I would have no objection to an "aged Hayden." (Hey, although I'm NOT advocating this, put Hayden in makeup and insert in Shaw's place as both scarred and older-ghost Anakin; that would probably satisfy a majority of fans who are split on this issue. After all, Jeremy Bulloch was replaced, right?)
  19. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Well, yeah. Sort of. We accepted that face back in the day because we had nothing to compare it to. That scene, viewed at the end of all 6 films, is very sad to look at because he's not even recognizable. All pale, bald, and scarred up.
    Jarren_Lee-Saber likes this.
  20. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    The ravages of the dark side - and proof that no one knew who would play Anakin in the prequels. :p
    Jarren_Lee-Saber likes this.
  21. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    So were you also confused when Vader took his helmet off on DS II? Were you like "who in the world are you!? And what did you do with Anakin you potato-headed monstrosity!?!?!"
    -----


    boggles the mind doesn't it?

    but apparently some were
  22. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    When were all the Jedi officially gone? When padme was on mustafar with anakin, were all the Jedi (except for obi wan and yoda), dead by then? Did any survive order 66? Did cyborg suited samurai vader hunt down jedi between ROTS and ANH? How much percentage survived?
    Last edited by Lord Tyrannus, Oct 25, 2012
  23. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    When Yoda died and before Luke passed his trials.
    No.
    Yes.
    Yes.
    10% survived Order 66.
  24. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    How do you know that the jedi survived order 66 and were hunted down later? Luke was not the last jedi. In the EU, he starts a new Jedi order and there are lots of jedi there. Darth vader did not help the empire hunt down the jedi, he just went after the jedi younglings, that's all. How do you know that cyborg Vader went on missions against the surviving Jedi? I don't think vader was responsible for the jedi's downfall, it was just the stormtroopers in episode 3.
  25. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Did you miss the part about LIGHTSABER wounds to the dead Jedi in the Temple? He killed Jedi in ROTS and not just the kids.

    As far as the MOVIES, I don't recall anything specific about Vader hunting down Jedi personally, (because I don't watch the movies every day - I haven't seen ANH in over a year). Perhaps he handed them a daisy when and if he ran across them.
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