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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga The NEW official Hayden vs Shaw thread

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Lars_Muul, Mar 4, 2010.

  1. TOSCHESTATION

    TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 17, 2003
    I 'see' both when I watch Star Wars. But that's Star Wars. ROTJ and it's "certain point of view", are another matter entirely.


    The above is an example of the "blame the audience" trope. I don't think you're really understanding where I am coming from, in any case.

    edit:

    Thank you.
     
  2. StampidHD280pro

    StampidHD280pro Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2005
    Well, in this case there's a reason to blame the audience. Those who go in looking for an incoherent story will find one. Those who go in expecting a coherent one will find theirs as well. I've seen it in myself as well as others. I can't say that your point of view is wrong, because its not. Its just not as fun.
     
  3. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    You know why.[face_hypnotized]

    That was never my position. You're apparently getting posters confused with one another. He's too old to represent a 46-year-old.

    The light side is the light side. 1. To go or come back, as to an earlier condition or place. 2. To revert in speech, thought, or practice.

    The Shaw image shows someone who wasn't cut to pieces and burned up on Mustafar. Just like the Hayden image.

    I didn't cite them as examples of my position. I'm going by the evidence in the films, not speculation. You cited them as counterexamples, which they are not. We don't see them pre-DS, so they don't help you in any way.

    More appeal to ignorance. Why did they forget about it? Did you personally mind-wipe them?

    That's what we call it when you latch onto a presumed attack vector without checking the films to see if they contradict you. Yoda would be very displeased by your recklessness.
     
  4. TOSCHESTATION

    TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 17, 2003
    Yes, and YOU 'know why', and others 'know why'....yet you rhetorically dance-around the spurious reasoning of 'why' when I bring up arguments against the ghost change (or at least here, when you posit the 'redundancy' of the two versions, i.e. "they're the same" .


    Not at all. I'm merely preemptively taking away that position as an option for you. I had said after all, Before you say , "Shaw was TOO old" .


    That's correct. But the Anakin of ROTJ circa the early 80's was NOT meant to be a "46-year-old" or 40-something period. If anything, he was supposed to be around 60 (referencing the Kasdan/Lucas collaboration drafts including the final shooting script). Whatever Shaw 'looked like', he looked closer to a 60-something, and despite being closer to 80, he was cast for a reason.


    That's irrelevant to what I pointed out; namely, the 'static' Anakin of the Hayden version. He grows and changes but once he turns to the dark side, he becomes a static, unchanging personality/being....(???)


    The Shaw image doesn't do the above any more than the Obi-Wan ghost shows an Obi-Wan who "didn't get cut down by Vader" . No, but the Shaw image shows a man who continued to grow and age after he turned, instead of the Hayden Anakin who stops aging once he turned to the dark side.


    You cited them as a 'counter' to my claim that the dark-side 'personality change' "only applies to Anakin"....


    If that were the case, then you wouldn't have used them to 'counter' my claim that - as it stands, apparently - Anakin is the sole person in the G.F.F.A. who becomes another person entirely when he turns to the dark side.


    Neither do they help you, so I don't know why you're quibbling over this detail.


    More like: 'appeal' to what's actually in the films, instead of force-fitting later conceits into said films, and ignoring Occam's Razor.


    I know "why" they "forgot", speaking in real-world out-of-GFFA terms. In GFFA-Universe terms - in light of the Anakin-centric 1-6 saga - can YOU tell me why they forgot about it?


    Then you should be 'calling it' on yourself when you - and others - formulate "Hail Mary's" to hold it all together, despite having to force-fit such content into the films.


    Let's please be aware of the difference between fantasy and reality. That's the second* time you've rhetorically "broken the fourth wall" but in IN REVERSE.

    * "did you mind-wipe them"
     
  5. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Which makes asking the question in the first place disingenuous.

    Not according to ANH. Then again, you're only as young as you feel...

    Rewriting history won't help you.

    And that is speculation based on an appeal to ignorance, without any evidence to back it up. Q.E.D.

    They didn't forget about it. Can you prove that they did? How is it that you and you alone are privy to their inner thought processes? Are you secretly George Lucas? It's time to come clean, Georgie. Reveal yourself to us!

    It's not in the films that they forgot anything. For example, Ben fails to mention the death of Uncle Owen in TESB and ROTJ. Can YOU tell ME why Ben FORGOT this? Why NOT?

    How thoughtful.

    I'm not the one trying to use them to dodge Lucas.

    I didn't see Obi-Wan get "cut down". Obi-Wan "merged with the Force", to use Lucas' words.
     
  6. TOSCHESTATION

    TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 17, 2003
    More Kabuki-dance.....

    'According to ANH' a young 20-something Vader KILLED 'Annikin' Father Skywalker. [face_shame_on_you] Let's deal with ROTJ-era canon.


    Don't dissemble. [face_talk_hand]


    D.D. [face_shame_on_you]


    Can you tell why, in view of the Anakin-centric Ep 1-6 saga, they DO NOT mention it at all, to Luke or even amongst themselves in the OT?


    No other fan-base uses the above reasoning, that I've seen. A movie-goer is somehow 'presuming' to be 'god' or the 'auteur' if he or she takes a film at face value.

    Trust me. It's for your own good.


    What you, A_F, "see" in the films is based on what Lucas SAYS ??? :oops:[face_plain]



    - Steve "there are other options available to you other than disagreeing just to disagree" TOSCHESTATION
     
  7. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    [face_laugh] You mean like getting busted trying to use Palpatine and Dooku to get around Lucas, and then accusing me of trying to use Palpatine and Dooku in the first place?

    Still waiting for that proof.[face_whistling]

    Speak for yourself. I'd offer you human sacrifice, but that's where I draw the line.

    No, believe it or not, two sequential sentences can actually be about two different points.

    Ever wonder why it has a Latin name? Because it's been around for a long time. Since before there was a fan base.

    And then we found out they were one and the same. Well, thanks for the trip down memory lane.
     
  8. TOSCHESTATION

    TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 17, 2003
    I'll remember the above the next time you accuse another poster of "putting words in Lucas' mouth". [face_peace]


    'Proof'? You've seen a version of the OT where they DO mention it?


    You resort to jokes, because you have no answer.

    'Two different points' that are inconsequential. The first is slippery, smoke-screen equivocation. The second is irrelevant appeal-to-auteur-as-argument.


    No thanks to your habit of trying to have it both ways, i.e. appeal to ANH, but ignore the context of the cited dialogue.
     
  9. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Ah, more of the "preemptive" thing. So considerate.=D=

    You've seen a version of reality where someone not mentioning something proves that they forgot it?

    It means: pretending to be "God" is not an argument.

    If you're God I hereby challenge you to turn this computer into wine! So, so thirsty...
    [image=http://newmexicoindependent.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/roman-coliseum-photo.jpg]

    No, the first is reference to your perpetual lack of proof. Care to explain why Obi-Wan's cloak is already dropping before Vader's saber even connects?

    I'm not ignoring any context, especially when ADF is taken into consideration. You're ignoring the dialogue itself, simply because ANH/TESB are consistent with the PT on this issue. ROTJ ( original recipe ) is the lone holdout.
     
  10. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2003
    How do Obi Wan and Yoda feel about getting shafted in the afterlife?

    Although Kenobi lied enough that he was fortunate his ghost wasn't aged.
    But certainly, Yoda's life-service to the force was worth knocking off a couple, three-four hundred years, right?
    [face_alien_1]
     
  11. TOSCHESTATION

    TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 17, 2003
    It's a socially acceptable rhetorical tactic, unlike arguing just to argue, while having no coherent through-line or overall point. [face_whistling]


    Or how about where, in the 'Anakin-centric' GFFA universe, it would make MORE sense for them to mention it to Luke than to NOT mention it (iow, enlightening Luke on something that he DOES NOT KNOW, unlike the "why didn't Obi-Wan bring up Owen Lars again to Luke in ESB/ROTJ?" schtick).


    Agreed. Then why do you use the 'auteur-theory' as an argument?


    Irrelevant, because I was not attempting to make a case on whether/ how Obi-Wan died. I only brought up it show how Anakin's Shaw ghost 'implies' nothing that Obi-Wan's ghost doesn't already 'imply', i.e. supposedly an Obi-Wan who "never died".


    How is the novelization author A.D. Foster relevant here?


    ANH is 'consistent with the PT' on this issue, because Lucas 'had to' make a choice when making the PT, and he chose ANH's* characterization of Vader. That's not to say that he couldn't have just as easily 'stuck' to the ROTJ conceit. After all, if he could 'jettison' that movie's/era-canon conceits, why could he NOT also jettison the whole "Father-Vader" conceit?

    *I consider TESB to be 'transitional' in terms of the canon story-line.
     
  12. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    According to what society? The one where posters are indistinguishable from one another?

    Still waiting on that proof. ( But in actuality I'm not really waiting per se, because I know the proof isn't coming. Why? One of your previous posts has the answer... )

    Now we're getting somewhere. However, I fail to drink this computer. Slurrrrrp!

    The Obi-Wan ghost shows Obi-Wan as he was during ANH, not Obi-Wan as he would have looked if things had turned out differently; the Shaw ghost shows a speculative image identical to that of an Anakin who never fell ( which is also true for Hayden ), who remained a Jedi in good standing the whole time, and thus never suffered injuries on Mustafar.

    That's what I'm saying.

    Too bad.
     
  13. StampidHD280pro

    StampidHD280pro Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2005
    To be fair, Toschi. I don't think anyone understands where you're coming from.
    When its Return of the Jedi, its okay for Vader to be Luke's father. But in ANH this isn't so? And in Return of the Jedi, it's okay for Ben to know who Luke's sister is, but in ESB Ben has forgotten? Are you out to prove that the trilogy doesn't make sense? Is that your point? I'm dead serious.
     
  14. TOSCHESTATION

    TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 17, 2003
    Finally! Someone who's willing to have a discussion, instead of arguing just to argue while having no overall point.

    Those who have the will to understand, do so. Did I just pull a cop-out? I did...:p[face_whistling]

    No, it IS so. Only, retroactively so, however. It wasn't the case originally. Furthermore, I don't know about it being 'okay' in ROTJ - only that it works for me.


    I wouldn't put it that way. I'd say that it seems that Ben in ESB has 'forgotten', in light of Jedi (Episode 6) . One rationale that would 'fix' the continuity, is that Yoda and Ben don't mention Leia when they are in effect talking 'to the audience' (i.e. after Luke has taken off Dagobah to go to Bespin) so as to not tip-off the audience. But that's the retroactive explanation.


    No, I'm not out to prove that. In this thread, I'm here to discuss the thread topic. If the discussion has 'repercussions' in regards to the OT's coherency, I am not averse to such. However, that's probably best discussed in the 'Secret History of SW' thread.
     
  15. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon

    Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 17, 2000
    Actually, it works fine within just the OT, if you interpret that Ben didn't know Leia was Luke's sister/Vader's daughter until after Luke left Dagobah in TESB. Either that, or he didn't realize (but somehow Yoda did) that Leia had the Force potential to take over if Luke fell. Those are the only ways the OT films make sense together*.

    But the PT screws that (among other things) up. We see that Obi-Wan is clearly aware of both Leia's Skywalker lineage AND her Force potential. Watching TESB after the PT, Ben's ignorance of the "other" is only excusable if the "other" is someone other than Leia. Come RotJ, that excuse falters. The PT works with just TESB, and it works with just RotJ, but the three combined are irreconcilable.


    *Well, sure, the sexual tension between Luke and Leia still doesn't make sense, but Ben's side of things does.:p
     
  16. Nordom

    Nordom Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 1, 2004
    I think that Toschi's point is that when ANH was made Vader and Luke's father were different people and Vader was also considerably younger than Obi-Wan. Both Obi-Wans words and Vaders words indicate this.
    When RotJ was made Vader has now become Luke's father and his age had been changed. The RotJ script calls Anakins Force ghost "elderly". So Lucas cast an older actor as he saw Anakin as being old.
    But this creates problems with ANH as 1) Vader KILLED Luke's father and 2) Vader is a younger person.

    As for the subject at hand, Shaw, as the ghost, shows a man who has been to hell and back again. He did fall and he did spent a lot of time in the dark side but he redeemed himself and died a good man. His ghost of that same good man but his wounds have been healed. So it is not, in my view, an Anakin that never fell. It is one that did fall but his wounds have been healed. Same thing with Obi-Wan really, Vader cut him down, he died and then joined the Force. But his ghost is not cut in half or has a nasty wound in the side. Yoda also died and then joined the Force. Qui-Gon died and then joined the Force.
    So the logic is very clear, you die and then you can become one with the Force or a Force-ghost.

    Hayden instead shows an Anakin just before he fell, that Vader had not yet happened or he did happen but all of that was just erased. So I think Shaw is a better image of the full character arc of Anakin Skywalker than Hayden, as it is now. If you put Hayden in the death scene and allow him to actually act in the ghost scene then it might work better.

    Regards
    Nordom
     
  17. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2003

    THIS.
     
  18. StampidHD280pro

    StampidHD280pro Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2005
    How does Obi-Wan know that Leia is force sensitive in the PT?
     
  19. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn

    Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 23, 1999
    Note that the reason the children are hidden and the fact that they could become threats to the Emperor's power are tied together. Leia wouldn't be a threat because of of her potential for political maneuvering, or because she could appeal to Vader to come back to the good side (remember, Ben doesn't consider that possible), but because she had Force power.
     
  20. StampidHD280pro

    StampidHD280pro Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2005
    Point taken. Star Wars has bizarre continuity errors. Should they be fixed?
     
  21. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2003
    They can't.
    And, it wouldn't be Star Wars, if they did.
    [face_not_talking]
     
  22. drg4

    drg4 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Yes, everything! And start with the original film!

    I want an opening crawl that doesn't lie to me! I want Luke's last name to be something other than bloody Skywalker! (Obi-Wan, you idiot!) I want jet-boosters on Artoo! I want to hear Ben clear his throat when Luke remarks how beautiful Leia is! I want to see Shmi's grave at the homestead! I want to hear the following exchange, "How did my father die?" "I'll tell you when you're older"! I want Vader to detect his daughter while he's torturing her! I want the Rebellion to haul tail out of Yavin in the last scene!

    Then we go on to Empire... :D

     
  23. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2003
    You forgot about who shot first in the Cantina.
    :eek:
     
  24. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    However, TESB doesn't offer any information on Anakin's age.

    I see. So you only ignore Lucas in an abstract sense, but not when it comes to specific plot points.

    It's certainly important that he learned the dark side was a bad thing, unlike those bozos Ben and Yoda who could never quite figure that bit out. The other stuff he learned - the mechanics of quality choking, how to put up with Sate Pestage, Xizor's cell number, the average number of Rebels that can be killed by a properly functioning E-Web, etc. - is also very important. It's all part of being a well-rounded Jedi ghost. To put it another way, those dorks Ben and Yoda may be light side-smart, but he's street-smart, and the Force just loves that stuff.

    Just like Obi-Wan himself.

    Midichlorians.
     
  25. Lady_Skywalker87

    Lady_Skywalker87 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 4, 2008
    Indeed![face_hypnotized]



    Han of course!;)

    EPIC![face_laugh] specially in regards to OBI...



    Um ...Midichlorians? Really?

    [face_whistling]




    OW:It's a girl!

    P: Leia!

    Need to say more?8-} :p
     
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