The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Binary_Sunset, Jan 14, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Jedilane Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 1
    I guess this thread started because you were saying that the NT said everyone will be saved.

    Then it went to is there really a Hell.

    Here is where I think is should go next.

    If we do ALL get saved, why do we need this life? Being saved is going somewhere better and being with God for eternity, right? Well if we are all going to be saved, then we are just going to be with the same people for eternity....whats the point? What are you being saved from?

    Isn't it a reward to be saved? What kind of reward is it if EVERYONE gets it?

    And like was said earlier, "Why should I care what I do. Why believe in God?"

    If people that don't believe in God get saved, (e.g. get the reward) why is it a reward?
  2. Jedilane Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 1
    You are missing the most obvious section.

    Matthew 25:31-46
    *****************
    31
    "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.
    32
    All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
    33
    He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
    34
    "Then the King will say to those on his right, `Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
    35
    For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,
    36
    I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
    37
    "Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
    38
    When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
    39
    When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
    40
    "The King will reply, `I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
    41
    "Then he will say to those on his left, `Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
    42
    For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,
    43
    I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
    44
    "They also will answer, `Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
    45
    "He will reply, `I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
    46
    "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
  3. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    Darth Stryphe wrote: "If not 100% of humanity will be saved, why the use of the word "all"? Well, simple. Remember, Christanity was started by the Jews (Jesus and the 12), preached by Jesus first to the Jews, regarding teachings and prophecies of the OT (which is the Jewish law). Key word hear is "Jewish". The old law, with all it's benefits and blessings, was for the Jews alone. But Jesus's salvation, though taught to the Jews first, was for everyone who believed, regardless of race or nationality. This was difficult for the original disciples and apostiles to accept at first, for it was a revulationary idea. As such, when Jesus's salvation was taught, it was often driven home that it was not reserved for the Jews, but was for "all" (I need not quote the verses, you did that). Was "all" meaning unbelievers and believers alike? No, "all" meant Jewish and gentiles alike. Every nation and race can know Jesus's promise of salvation."

    I understand what you're saying here, but I must disagree. I think the impression a first-time reader gets when reading these is that "all" means "every single individual". Though I must grant you that "all" meaning "some individuals from all nations" is a possible interpretation.

    In cases like this, I believe that we must go with the interpretation that gives the most glory to God. Which is more glorious: A god who saves only some of his creation; or God, who saves all of his creation?
  4. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    Palpazzar wrote: "Just out of curiousity, Binary. If you are right and all will be saved, why should I care what I do? Why believe in God? Why don't I just tell God to back off?"

    Here's a question for you, put in all seriousness: If you were convinced that I'm right (that all will be saved, regardless), would you choose to rape children, or murder people, or torture them, or assault them, etc? Of course not.

    I don't understand how anyone can be an aggressor against other people. I don't need a reason to refrain from murdering, raping, stealing, etc. It would break my heart to do such things.
  5. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    Darth Stryphe, let me answer just one part of your latest post. I'll try to answer the rest later.

    You wrote: "If Jesus saves (and I'm asuming we're on agreement on that), what does he save from? If Hell doesn't exist, and there is only this world and the next, what does he save us from? Why did we need him to die for our sins if Heaven is the only possible alternative to being alive in this world?"

    Matthew 1:21: "She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."

    Note that the angel doesn't say that Jesus will save people from hell, or from the consequences of their sins; the angel says that Jesus will save us from our sins themselves.

    This means that he will set us free from being sinful. The fact of being sinful is a grievous load to bear. At the resurrection of the dead, we will all be set free of this cursed load. In the meantime, by accepting Christ (which includes obeying him) our load is lightened.
  6. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    I wonder if people who lived before the NT and our current definition of hell thought,
    "Man, what's the point of living if we're not saved? I hope an eternal punishment concept is created soon because i am this close to commiting genocide. Again." People lived their lives, i am going to guess, fairly close to how we live our own lives today. Sure things were different in many ways, but i think basically human nature doesn't change. How were they able to be normal, non-murdering people (like most of us tend to be, yes?) without an idea of Jesus and/or eternal damnation? I don't know. But they were.

    I reject the idea that the only thing that makes people act in a moral, considerate fashion is the fear there may be some mysterious eternal punishment if they don't.

  7. Palpazzar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 4
    Cydonia I reject the same idea. People will not change for fear of punishment. You may be surprised to know the Bible says that fear is not the way either.

    Ok, Binary, a couple of questions (no offense just covering the bases):
    1). Do you believe in the Bible as God's true word?
    2). Do you believe what God says about himself?
    3). Do you believe what God says about the nature of things such as sin, death, angels, etc.?
  8. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    Palpazzar, it seems you're turning my words around a bit. I don't think people stay the same for fear of punishment, either. If you are naturally not a murderer, rapist, or theif, the idea of hell isn't going to make you want to do those things anyway.
  9. Palpazzar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2000
    star 4
    I don't think I'm turning them around, but if I am forgive me. It is unintentional.

    All I am saying is that fear will not cause a change to do or not do those things. I thought that was the spirit of what you were saying.
  10. fishmoe Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 31, 2002
    i cant remember where but someone in the bible says "not one is righteos not even one"

    and

    "the path that leads to good is narrow and few shall enter"
  11. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    Sorry palpazzar, i guess i misunderstood.
  12. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    Palpazzar wrote: "Ok, Binary, a couple of questions (no offense just covering the bases):

    No offense taken, not even close. It's obvious that you're a kind person. So ask away!

    1). Do you believe in the Bible as God's true word?

    Yes. I am not a fundamentalist in that I believe that there can be minor factual errors in the Bible, but I don't believe that there are any errors that matter. For example, if the Bible said King Such-and-So reigned for 28 years, but it was really only 24 years, that wouldn't bother me. I believe that every single miracle recorded in the Bible really happened.

    2). Do you believe what God says about himself?

    If this question is the same question as, "Do you believe what the Bible says about God?" then the answer is yes. I don't believe in any general revelations of God outside of the Bible.

    3). Do you believe what God says about the nature of things such as sin, death, angels, etc.?

    I do indeed believe this, if what you're asking is if I believe what the Bible teaches regarding sin, death, angels, etc.
  13. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    In cases like this, I believe that we must go with the interpretation that gives the most glory to God. Which is more glorious: A god who saves only some of his creation; or God, who saves all of his creation?

    But then you are suggesting that the salvation of the unrightous, the evil, and those who openly reject God gives glory to God. What glory is there in that? Remember, God is a just God. Look at it like this, what glory to our justice system would it be to catch Bin Ludin, and send him to a tropical paradise where he couldn't hurt anyone anymore, but he'd have all the pleasures this world has to offer.

    I see much glory in a God who will save the repentant, no matter how grievous and many their sins. I see glory in a God who would forgive even Bin Ludin if he sought his forgiveness. I do not see any instances in the Bible of God rewarding and/or forgiving evil people who did not/do not seek His forgiveness.

    Also, consider two things: 1) You admit my translation could be accurate, though you personally don't believe it to be accurate (I mention this only in hopes you'll continue to give my views some thought), and (2) The verses Jedilane listed above. Jesus clearly states that when the Kingdom comes, he'll divide the saved from the unsaved.


    Here's a question for you, put in all seriousness: If you were convinced that I'm right (that all will be saved, regardless), would you choose to rape children, or murder people, or torture them, or assault them, etc? Of course not.

    Hmmm, not a good argument. Your talking extremes. Is lying a sin? Is cheating a sin? Look, a life of sin has a lot to offer: riches, pleasures, power, popularity. Now, I have an honest desire to do what's right and please God, a desire that does not come from fear, but at the same time, I must remind myself that "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6). Why? Because I find much desire in riches and pleasures that are not wholey good. Now, you may rebutal by saying that Roman 6 speaks of a physical death only. Hey, we ALL die. You can't honestly tell me that ever dishonest business man, swindler, or crooked politian comes to a bad end in this life, can you?

    As Palpazzar said, fear does not make one rightous, fear does not change ones heart to do good or save a soul. That's not really the point, the point is you can't have your cake and eat it, too.


    Matthew 1:21: "She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."

    Note that the angel doesn't say that Jesus will save people from hell, or from the consequences of their sins; the angel says that Jesus will save us from our sins themselves.


    But if our sins seperate us from God, causing us to loose our chance at salvation, don't we need Jesus to save us from our sins?

    If you had cancer, would you ask the doctor to (a) save your life or (b) to cure your cancer? Either one, in this case, means the same. If he saves your life, he'll cure your cancer. If he cures your cancer, he'll save your life.

    Once again, "-for the wages of sin are death."


    This means that he will set us free from being sinful. The fact of being sinful is a grievous load to bear. At the resurrection of the dead, we will all be set free of this cursed load. In the meantime, by accepting Christ (which includes obeying him) our load is lightened.

    And I wholeheartedly agree with this. However, this doesn't refute the existance of damnation.

    OK, Binary, before you reply to the above, I am more curious in your response to two things, first:

    1) Matthew 7's seperation of the sheep from the lambs quote which Jedilane mentioned above.
    2) Jesus's statement "for not all who say 'Lord,Lord' will enter the kingdom of Heaven" (also in Matt 7, I believe).
  14. Darkside_Spirit Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 3
    Why does an all-powerful, omnipotent God need to become a man and then be murdered in order to forgive humanity anyway?
  15. Jedilane Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 1
    I think the verse you were refering to is:

    Matthew 7:13-14
    13
    "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
    14
    But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

    Refering to those who would follow Jesus and be saved.


    See, not all will make it.
  16. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    D_S, God had to come and take our place. He wasn't just going to say, "These are the consequences of disobeying Me. But if you disobey Me, the consequences won't matter, all will be well. :) :) :)" To every action there is a reaction. Some one had to pay for the crimes we committed, and God didn't want it to be us. He took our place, and He could only do that by becoming man.
  17. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    "Some one had to pay for the crimes we committed, and God didn't want it to be us."

    But we pay for our crimes of non-Jesus worship when we go to hell.
  18. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    Well, of course. You have to accept Jesus's sacrifice. It's be like if I handed you twenty bucks because you needed it for something and you didn't have the money. You'd have to take the money, I couldn't just make you take it. Jesus's sacrifice is a gift. You have to accept it. And if you do, then your sins will be covered. Now, does this mean you can go on living as you please? No, of course not. Sin hurts you as well as others. Out of greatfulness of the gift God gave you, you should try to honer Him, and not hurt others. Only a sick, twisted person would use Jesus to do as they please, and I doubt God really considers them saved if they did.
  19. Darkside_Spirit Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 3
    If God really did become a man and get murdered in order to forgive humanity, why would he shroud this immense act in very dubious historical evidence, and why would he waste his sacrifice by only giving it to the people who believe it happened?

    No-one has rejected redemption from sin, if sin exists. Assuming your doctrine is correct, people have done nothing except come to an incorrect conclusion as to fact.

    If you offer someone a $100 cheque (for charitable purposes) and they refuse it, fine. They can't be forced to take it.

    Supposing, on the other hand, you plant vague references that you have a $100 cheque to give. There are other references pointing to different $100 cheques, but only yours is real. If someone happens to follow up the wrong reference, and becomes empty-handed, they haven't rejected your offer of $100. They've simply made the wrong choice as to which references are true.

    Connecting this to the point I made above, if you had $100 to give, why waste it by planting vague references to it amid many other false references when it would be much better used just by walking up to the person and giving it to them?
  20. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    No other references have been made. Sure, there have been others that tell how to live a good life, but none other than Jesus have provided the spiritual reurrection that is needed after the spiritual death we get when we sin.


    As for the vague refrences, they are only vague because you don't want them to be real. There's plenty of evidence, and plenty of people have chosen to follow these refrences. They are there. But you have to want them.


    Ever wonder why Jesus taught in parables? There's your answer. He who has 'ears' to 'hear', let him 'hear'.
  21. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
      Mar 4:10   And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
      
      Mar 4:11   And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:
      
      Mar 4:12   That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.

    Sounds like the parables are there to confuse people. Because if they really understood what he was saying, their sins would be forgiven. Why he would not want them to be forgiven in the first place i suppose is another discussion.
  22. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    "Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:

    Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them."



    To them that are without the faith to believe the parables. Jesus taught this way so that only those that want to 'hear' will 'hear'.
  23. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    So his disciples didn't need the parables, they got the straight word and were saved. The foolish masses had to have it clouded for them, in order for them to be tested. Too bad the foolish masses weren't given the straight word. Seems like they were at a disadvantage, and the disciples didn't have to worry about brain puzzles. What's the point in that? Why not just be upfront and clear for everyone? Why add those extra hurdles to salvation, when others didn't have to worry about those hurdles?
  24. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    When are you guys going to learn that Binary is going to ignore all exclusive comments that Christ, Paul, John, Luke or anyone else make about the kingdom of heaven?
  25. Angelic_308 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2002
    star 5
    Here's scripture telling that some people will go to hell.... Revelation 20: 11-15
    ?Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky
    fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing
    before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The
    dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead
    that were in it, as death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged
    according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire
    is the second death. If anyone?s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the
    lake of fire.?

    The lake of Fire is Hell.If thats still not what you want heres anouther.

    Matthew 13 verse 49-50
    "So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth"
    in this verse the furnace is hell.

    And if you want a story (or parable) about a man who went to hell, go to Luke 16 verse 19 - 31 (I'm not typeing up the whole story so read it in your bible) A verse in this parable

    Luke 16 verse 23 - 24 says "And being in torments in in Hades he lifted up and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame" in here Hades is one name for Hell.
    And if you still need more goto

    2 Peter 2 verse 4 "For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment."
    As far as I'm conserned there is a Hell, it's just as real as Heaven.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.