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The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Binary_Sunset, Jan 14, 2002.

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  1. Binary_Sunset

    Binary_Sunset Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 28, 2000
    The second N. T. passage put forward as supporting eternal damnation is John 3:16:

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

    This verse clearly teaches that all who believe in Jesus will be saved. What does the verse say about those who don't believe in Jesus? Nothing. Therefore, the verse cannot be used to support eternal damnation.

    In this context, it is important to remember the words of I Timothy 4:10: "the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers." God doesn't save only believers; he saves everyone.
     
  2. Darth Geist

    Darth Geist Jedi Master star 5

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    Oct 23, 1999
    How can an infinitely just God condemn imperfect beings for the very imperfection that He bestowed upon them?
     
  3. cydonia

    cydonia Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jun 6, 2001
    That's a good question. The answer is accept his gift, (jesus) even if you don't believe it to begin with.
     
  4. Binary_Sunset

    Binary_Sunset Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 28, 2000
    The third passage put forth as proving hell is Matthew 7:13-14 and 21. Here's vv 13-14:

    Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it.

    Jesus is here refering to this life, not the one to come. Nowhere in this passage does he mention eternity, resurrection, the last day, or anything else that has to do with eschatology.

    It is a fact that most of the people of 1st-century Israel did not accept Jesus, either before or after his resurrection. Those who accepted Jesus (i.e., became Christians) entered by the narrow gate. They became followers of the Prince of Peace. Most other Jews, however, remained devoted to the idea of military overthrow of the Roman domination of Israel. In A. D. 67 the Jewish revolt broke out. Right before the Romans attacked Jerusalem the Christians fled. Everybody else stayed behind to fight the Romans; that is, they entered by the wide gate. They were all killed.

    Jesus was speaking literally: Those who follow me will find life (by escaping from the Roman armies rather than fighting them); those who reject me will find death (by fighting against the Romans and being killed).

    Verse 7:21 of Matthew states:

    Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

    What is the kingdom of heaven? Paul defines it for us in Romans 14:17: "The kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the holy spirit."

    Those who say they believe in Jesus but aren't righteous won't inherit "the kingdom of heaven". What is this kingdom? "Righteousness, peace, joy." Those who are not righteous will not know peace and joy. Sin will gnaw in their hearts, as opposed to the righteous who know peace and joy.

    Again, this verse nowhere speaks of eschatology (the doctrine of the last things; what ultimately happens to people).
     
  5. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 6, 2001
    No, Sunset. He CAN save all men, if all men (meaning everyone) would accept it. However, not all will.
     
  6. cydonia

    cydonia Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jun 6, 2001
    "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it."

    That's true. That's something you'll read in just about every self help book out there. That could also mean anything, to me it says if you go with the flow you're not living an authentic life.

    "Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

    Wow, so i don't have to say "Jesus, Jesus save me" but just act the way i think god would like, and i enter the kingdom of heaven? Done.


     
  7. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 6, 2001
    What is truly believing?

    I think actually believing is living and carrying out God's word, not just thinking that Jesus was the Christ, etc.
     
  8. Gandalf the Grey

    Gandalf the Grey Jedi Knight star 6

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    May 14, 2000
    Steven Spielberg will go to hell if only Christians can get in. If you subscribe to that belief, Albert Einstein is already roasting, along with Neil Bohr, Sigmund Freud and Gandhi. All three stooges are a-burning, and it?s only a matter of time before Leonard Nimoy and William Shatner end up there. It goes without saying that Charles Darwin is in one of the lowest pits. I think that it won?t be too long before Mohammed Ali ends up there. With my views, I?m probably headed there myself. If I?m not mistaken, so are JediGaladriel and Liz Skywalker.

    I can?t help but wonder if the prospect of burning in such company down there in Hell is better than the prospect of sharing Heaven with of Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson.
     
  9. Binary_Sunset

    Binary_Sunset Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 28, 2000
    The fourth passage put forth as proving hell is Matthew 25:31-46. It's too long for me to quote here.

    This parable is part of the Olivet discourse, in which Jesus (using prophetic language) prophesies the destruction of Jerusalem in A. D. 70. He said in Matthew 24:34: "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

    So we are given a timeframe. Within one generation (about 40 years) of A. D. 30, the prophecies of the Olivet discourse (which includes Matthew 25:31-46) would be fulfilled. Sure enough, in A. D. 70 Jerusalem was destroyed.

    So what is Jesus talking about in this passage?

    Those who accepted him (the Christians) were blessed and enjoyed life. They did not join the doomed revolt against the Romans. On the other hand, those who did not accept Jesus revolted against the Romans and were destroyed. Matthew 25:31-46 shows the spiritual realities behind the historical events of A. D. 70.

    "But the passage is referring to the Second Coming when Jesus puts some people in heaven and others in hell!"

    No, we know this isn't the case for two reasons:

    1. The time-frame. The parable was fulfilled in the 1st century, as Jesus said. It doesn't refer to something thousands of years in the future.

    2. It wouldn't have made sense for Jesus at this point to talk about his second coming. The Twelve Apostles themselves (at this point) couldn't even grasp the concept of Jesus dying and rising from the dead! They would have been even more clueless if Jesus were to try to tell them about (in addition to his death and resurrection) his ascension and second coming.
     
  10. cydonia

    cydonia Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jun 6, 2001
    Not the three stooges, come on! Don't they get a chuckle pass?
     
  11. cydonia

    cydonia Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jun 6, 2001
    "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

    I use that quote alot, but i often hear it means "the generation of man". But there are also subsequent quotes that say something like "some of you standing here will see this" etc. right?
     
  12. Binary_Sunset

    Binary_Sunset Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 28, 2000
    The fifth passage put forth as proving hell is Luke 13:23-30. It is too long for me to quote here.

    This passage is similar to the passages from Matthew that I dealt with above.

    The first-century Christians are the ones who are spoken of in this passage as entering by the narrow door. The 1st-century Jews who didn't accept Christ are the ones who were shut out of the kingdom. This in fact is what happened. Before A. D. 70, the non-Christian Jews had their Temple and Jerusalem. Afterwards, they and their Temple and Jerusalem were destroyed. These wicked ones were indeed cast out and replaced by the peaceful Christians, who themselves are the new Temple and the New Jerusalem.

    Again, there is nothing in this passage to lead one to believe that Jesus is talking of eschatology (i.e., end times) here. He is talking about his contemporaries.
     
  13. Binary_Sunset

    Binary_Sunset Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 28, 2000
    Yes, cydonia. In Matthew 16:28 Jesus said, "There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the son of man coming in his kingdom."
     
  14. cydonia

    cydonia Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jun 6, 2001
    I just read luke 13:23-30, i don't see hell mentioned either. Sounds like he's talking to people there in that time, not us.

    Thanks binary, that passage has always confused me. Again, it doesn't sound like something in our time, but in that time.
     
  15. Binary_Sunset

    Binary_Sunset Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 28, 2000
    KnightWriter, you have said that one must accept the salvation offered by Jesus in order to be saved. But the N. T. nowhere says that. On the contrary, the N. T. goes out of its way to say that Jesus does it all; he is 100% responsible for our salvation. To make our salvation depend on something we do or don't do (such as believing in Jesus) would make salvation depend at least as much on us as on Jesus.

    I come back to I Timothy 4:10. God saves everyone, and he especially (not exclusively) saves believers.

    What does this mean? This means that believers are enjoying the foretaste of their salvation now. We know we will be resurrected into eternal life, and we can rejoice in that right now. Non-believers, however, don't have that joy. They don't believe in the resurrection and paradise. Make no mistake, they too will be joyously resurrected; but they (so to speak) don't realize there's going to be a party. So believers are in a better position:

    Non-believers get eternal joy starting at the resurrection.

    Believers get that and more: We also get the joy of looking forward to the resurrection.

    That's what it means when Paul says that God is the Savior "especially" of believers.
     
  16. cydonia

    cydonia Jedi Knight star 5

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    "To make our salvation depend on something we do or don't do (such as believing in Jesus) would make salvation depend at least as much on us as on Jesus."

    But i thought that was the whole point, if you don't accept Jesus' gift, you don't get heaven.

    I also have another point/question, that i think involves this. I often hear jesus came to pay the price so we don't have to. But we still pay the price by not believing in that, that has always confused me. If he paid the price, why does a price still have to be payed?
     
  17. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Christ redeemed mankind and made it *possible* for us to be saved. We can't simply go out and live however we want, ignoring goodness and God and such and expect to be in Heaven.

    I'm hopeful that someone knowledgable with Scripture will come in here sometime soon, because this is something that almost all Christians agree on (the existence of Hell, that not everyone will be saved, etc.).
     
  18. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Also, did it occur to you that not everyone does or will want to be saved? There are plenty of people who would reject God and salvation. Not everyone wants the same thing.
     
  19. Rouge Null

    Rouge Null Jedi Knight star 5

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    Apr 24, 2000
    WOO!
    This is gonna be fun!

    I too ask, "What of the people not exposed to the teachings of Christ?"

    It is my belief that if a person has never heard the teachings of Jesus, the actions and general life of that person determines their eternal fate.

    However, for those that have heard the "word" spoken convincingly (no fire and brimstone preaching) and shuns it willingly, then what God has said is done.

     
  20. cydonia

    cydonia Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jun 6, 2001
    "We can't simply go out and live however we want, ignoring goodness and God and such and expect to be in Heaven."

    Yes but i look at it as, is someone going about their day to day life, showing compassion, loving their neigbhor, but not being christian mean they are just going about living their lives however they want? They aren't murderers or anything, it seems you are suggesting that if one isn't saved somehow they will go around doing despicable things to other people.
     
  21. cydonia

    cydonia Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jun 6, 2001
    I have to add, binary sunset seems to have a fairly decent knowledge of scripture.
     
  22. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Just because you know Scripture doesn't mean you understand the authors' intent, although it can be argued that no one truly knows the authors' actual intent and meaning in their writing.

    Also, I don't mean at all to say that if you're not saved, you're going to go out and do bad things. Some of the best people I know are not Christian at all.
     
  23. Binary_Sunset

    Binary_Sunset Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 28, 2000
    Cydonia wrote: "But i thought that was the whole point, if you don't accept Jesus' gift, you don't get heaven.

    If true, that would be dreadful. The word "gospel" is an Old English word meaning "good news". The whole "accept Jesus or get fried" thing is anything but good news. On the contrary, it is highly distressing (and, glory to God, not true).

    Check out this and this for examples of how life-destroying a serious belief in hell is.
     
  24. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    I'm sorry, but I really don't buy it. There are literally millions of pages written about Scripture's references to salvation (that not everyone will be saved) and hell in books around the world and online, and if someone was really bored, I'm sure they could assemble them and the reasoning used to compile them.

    I find this to be a very wishful and false hope.
     
  25. Ender

    Ender Jedi Knight star 6

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    Aug 12, 1998
    I find this to be a very wishful and false hope.

    I find it to be a logical and humanitarian hope that we are judged by our actions and not by what we believe.


    "I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a
    will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I
    want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble
    souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with
    the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of
    the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted
    striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that
    manifests itself in nature."
    [Albert Einstein,_The World as I See It_]


     
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