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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Binary_Sunset, Jan 14, 2002.

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  1. Jedi_Master201

    Jedi_Master201 Jedi Knight star 5

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    May 5, 2001
    You did a god job. ;)

     
  2. InnocentIII

    InnocentIII Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Nov 29, 2001
    Wow. I'm sorry I haven't been on the boards recently to get in on these sooner. :)

    While Binary Sunset's original post stated that he wanted an argument about salvation based solely on the first 26 books of the New Testament, I find that these have pretty much all been posted here. :) Such as it is, I find that logic is often a better teacher than scripture verses, because those can be twisted and interpretted.

    The argument I'm going to present has already been alluded to... The denial of the presence of a place of eternal punishment and eternal reward is a denial of free will. On the premise that free will exists (though I don't think a whole lot of people would debate that, at least in this context) seperate places, that is, salvation and damnation, MUST EXIST, or else free will MUST NOT. To send everyone to Heaven regardless of faith, regardless of actions, is absolutely ridiculous. It's also a sin- God cannot sin, therefore he cannot do such an unjust thing. Besides, if there wasn't a Hell, why would anything matter? Why would YHWH have sent Jesus to save us? If we were going to be saved already, if, essentially, there was NEVER a price to pay, why did God the Father send His Son to pay the price?
     
  3. cydonia

    cydonia Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jun 6, 2001
    "Besides, if there wasn't a Hell, why would anything matter?"

    Interesting question and logic.

    "I find that logic is often a better teacher than scripture verses, because those can be twisted and interpretted."

    Taken out of context, i agree with you 100%.

     
  4. Binary_Sunset

    Binary_Sunset Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 28, 2000
    I'm falling behind. So here goes:

    Romans 3:22-28, Hebrews 11:6, and II Thessalonians 3:2 all have nothing to say about hell or damnation or eschatology.

    John 3:36 and I John 5:11-12 both speak of non-believers not having "life". This has a two-fold meaning: Those who rebelled (just about all the Jews except for the Christians) against Rome in A. D. 70 were slain; the Christians retained their lives. Second, non-believers are dead in their sins. They don't have the holy spirit indwelling them, so of course they lack "life". But neither of these passages have anything to say about hell or damnation.

    John 17:12 and II Thessalonians 2:3 both speak of the "destruction" of sinners. The former speaks of Judas's destruction. That was fulfilled when Judas hung himself. There is no warrant for reading hell and such into these passages. They are about this-worldly destruction.

    Matthew 11:20-24 speaks of the "day of judgment". The particular day of judgment spoken of here was in A. D. 70 when Israel and Jerusalem were destroyed for trusting in arms rather than in Christ. There have been (and will be) many days of judgment. Another example of a day of judgment was in 586 B. C. when the Babylonians destroyed Judah and Jerusalem. Like in A. D. 70, the Jews in 586 B. C. trusted in arms rather than in God; they reaped what they sowed. In any case, there is no hint of eschatology in this passage.
     
  5. cydonia

    cydonia Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jun 6, 2001
    the word destruction kind of has a sense of finality to it. If hell were eternal, and you were being eternally destroyed, real "destruction" couldnt' happen.
     
  6. Jedi_Master201

    Jedi_Master201 Jedi Knight star 5

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    May 5, 2001
    You have not addressed the parables that speak of only certain people entering the "Kingdom of Heaven".
     
  7. Wylding

    Wylding Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 13, 2000
    Nor have you addressed verses that talk of eternal punishment. Also, you chose to ignore my very first post wherein I quoted Christ when he was talking about seperating the nations of the earth at the end times and sending the sheep to heaven and the goats to their eternal punishment (I won't use the word hell because I don't believe in hell, but rather I think Christ is speaking of eternal unknowing, the great unconsciousness, or death (wherein there is no sense of self). That's really beside the point though, because they're still not in heaven.
     
  8. Binary_Sunset

    Binary_Sunset Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 28, 2000
    Now to rescue poor Matthew:

    Matthew 4:17--The point of repenting is to experience the peace of God in our hearts right here and now. And, if enough people repent, communities (towns, states, countries, regions, etc.) as a whole will experience the peace of God in their day-to-day existence. If everyone repented of his sins (which means to turn away from them), what a wonderful world it would be. That's why we repent: To prevent turning the earth into "hell".

    Matthew 5:20--Paul defines "kingdom of heaven" in Romans 14:17. It is "righteousness and peace and joy in the holy spirit". The verse means that if you are wicked, your heart will not know peace and joy.

    Matthew 6:15--This verse nowhere mentions eschatology. What is spoken of here is the this-worldly punishment for sin. There are often physical consequences for sinning. There are always spiritual consequences for sinning. Sinning drives peace and joy from your heart.

    Matthew 7:19--The fire spoken of here is the fire that engulfed Jerusalem in A.D. 70. The unrepentant Israelites who trusted in arms rather than in God were the tree that bore no fruit and was therefore cast into the fire.

    Matthew 7:26-27--These are very this-worldly judgments. No eschatology here.

    Matthew 10:14-15--What day of judgment? The one in A.D. 70. Those in Israel who did not become followers of the Prince of Peace instead put their faith in military might. Their judgment was harsh indeed.

    Matthew 10:32-33--Again, those acknowledged by the son were made safe from the disaster of A.D. 70; those disowned by the son were judged and destroyed in A.D. 70.

    Matthew 11:27--There's nothing about eschatology here.
     
  9. Binary_Sunset

    Binary_Sunset Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 28, 2000
    If you look up Matthew 23:15 you will find the word "hell" in most translations. There is no justification for that at all.

    The Greek word here translated "hell" is gehenna. In Greek ge means "valley" and henna is the proper name "Hinnom". So gehenna means "valley of Hinnom".

    The valley of Hinnom is a valley a few hundred yards southwest of Jerusalem. Why would Jesus call the Pharisees "sons of the valley of Hinnom"?

    Because they were doomed to destruction. In A.D. 70, after the Romans sacked Jerusalem, they burned the bodies of the untold thousands they killed. Where did they burn them?

    In the valley of Hinnom.
     
  10. Jedi_Master201

    Jedi_Master201 Jedi Knight star 5

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    May 5, 2001
    Well, it's a good theory you preach, but I don't buy into it. As someone once told me, "You only wish to find some new truth, a new revelation that no one else has thought of."


    Someone honestly once told me that. And it was true at the time. :)
     
  11. Binary_Sunset

    Binary_Sunset Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 28, 2000
    'You have not addressed the parables that speak of only certain people entering the "Kingdom of Heaven".'

    But I did. Romans 14:17 precisely defines "kingdom of god/heaven": It is "righteousness and peace and joy in the holy spirit". It is not a place; it is a spiritual state. The only people who can enter the kingdom (that is, be full of peace and joy) are the believers. Non-believers are confronted by undefeated death. But as believers we have the joy that our faith in Jesus the Resurrection brings.

    "Nor have you addressed verses that talk of eternal punishment. Also, you chose to ignore my very first post wherein I quoted Christ when he was talking about seperating the nations of the earth at the end times and sending the sheep to heaven and the goats to their eternal punishment."

    I addressed that passage in my post on 1/14 at 7:21 pm. As for the word "eternal" used in that passage:

    The Greek word translated here as "eternal" is aionios. Depending on its context, it has several different meanings. It does not always (or even usually) mean "lasting forever". For example: In the Greek version of the OT the word aionios is applied to these things:

    Solomon's temple (I Kings 3:12f)
    Caleb's inheritance (Joshua 14:9)
    Gehazi's leprosy (II Kings 5:27)
    etc

    In Matthew 25 aionios means that the rewards and the punishments are both meted out by God. It doesn't mean that the rewards and punishments here spoken of will last forever, anymore than Gehazi's leprosy lasted forever.
     
  12. Obi-Gon_Jinnobi

    Obi-Gon_Jinnobi Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Nov 16, 2001
    Not everyone will go to Heaven. Period.
     
  13. Binary_Sunset

    Binary_Sunset Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 28, 2000
    On free will:

    Consider these two verses:

    John 8:34--"Everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."

    Romans 8:21--"The creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God."

    These verses clearly teach that when a man sins he is MOST EMPHATICALLY not free; he is enslaved. Who, then, is free?

    John 8:31-32--'Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed in him, "If you continue in my word, then you are truly disciples of mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."'

    So it is obedience to God (through Jesus) that sets one free.

    It's simple:

    When you sin, you do it not because you are free, but because you are not free: You have been enslaved by sin.

    When you are righteous, it is because Jesus has set you free from sin.

    At his Second Coming, Jesus will set everyone totally and completely free. In other words, everyone will be righteous and will no longer sin. As Paul said in Colossians 1:19-20:

    "For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in him [Christ], and through him to reconcile all things to himself, having made peace through the blood of his cross; through him, whether things on earth or things in heaven."
     
  14. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 6, 2001
    Sorry, that just doesn't fly.
     
  15. keiran_helcyan

    keiran_helcyan Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Dec 13, 1999
    "You only wish to find some new truth, a new revelation that no one else has thought of."

    You make a good point there JM_201. Far too many people just look at the Bible as a means to justify there own objectives. A great many people go "how can I use the Bible to support this argument and this argument", and twist quotes completely out of their meaning for their own ends. The Bible is meant to be viewed en masse, and then draw your conclusions from it, not use it to support your pre-supposed argument.

    The simple fact is I pointed out about 30 selections from Matthew alone justifying my belief that heaven is not all-inclusive. Any person going into this book with an unbiased would almost 100% of the time come to the same conclusion, that:
    1) not all go to heaven
    2) some go to hell
    3) there is a day of judgement

    If you want me to I could dissect every other chapter in the bible, but I am 100% positive that no matter how many straight-forward verses I present Binary will just reject them outright.

    Lets face it, the Bible does pretty much everything short of smacking you in the face and yelling "Hey! You want to go to heaven, do good things and believe in Christ. If you don't you go to hell."

    Cydonia, no I didn't type it all, but I did use my Bible to find verses, then copied them from Bible Gateway.
     
  16. Binary_Sunset

    Binary_Sunset Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 28, 2000
    "No matter how many straight-forward verses I present Binary will just reject them outright.

    "Lets face it, the Bible does pretty much everything short of smacking you in the face and yelling "Hey! You want to go to heaven, do good things and believe in Christ. If you don't you go to hell."


    No, this is not the case. I ask for some NT verses that teach hell or eternal damnation, but this is what I get:

    1. Verses that talk about this-worldly judgments.
    2. Verses that talk about the valley of Hinnom.
    3. Verses that talk about the kingdom of God.
    4. Verses that talk about the importance of faith.

    None of these verses even remotely says something like this: "If you do not have faith in Jesus, after you die your immortal soul will be tormented without end in a place called hell."

    We must be careful not to mistake the fallible traditions of men for the word of the living God. Hell and eternal damnation are just two of those traditions of men.
     
  17. Ransom

    Ransom Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jan 17, 2001
    Binary's thoery is interesting. It also has the benefits of (1) paying attention to the original Greek and (2) paying attention the context in which the Gospels and other NT texts were written. Both are, IMO, better interpretive tools than doctrines deveolped over the course of 2 centuries and meant to serve various ends.

    However, Jesus generally supported Pharisaic Judaism even though he criticized the Pharisees themselves. There is a quote from Matthew (sorry don't have the citation) in which Jesus says that the Pharisees sit on the seat of Moses and that you should do as they teach but not as they do. Pharisaic Judaism apparently picked up the idea of the resurrection of the dead (along with angels and devils) from Zoroastrianism during their captivity in Babylon. Zoroastrianism also has a messianic eschatology which preaches that a savior will come at the end of the world, the righteous will be rewarded and the unrighteous punished. Given that and the other Matthew quotes (esp. the one about the separation of the sheep from the goats), I would say that the more convinving interpretation is the traditional one.

    As I recall, the valley of Hinnom is the traditional place where the bodies of the enemies were burned, not just after the failed rebellion in A.D. 70. The place took on symbolic significance beyond the literal meaning. Similarly, "armageddon" means more than just a battle at the city of Megiddo. But correct me if I'm wrong.

    I'm happy to learn more about this stuff, so I hope Binary gives some more info about his position. :)



     
  18. Palpazzar

    Palpazzar Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Aug 11, 2000
    The problem with Binary's argument is that it supposes that the Kingdom of Heaven is not a physical place.

    In fact, Jesus makes it clear in John 14:1-3 that heaven is a place. He refers to going to his father's house and returning to bring those who love him to that place. This cannot be interpreted as anything other than what it says. There is a physical place.

    Paul's definition of the Kingdom of Heaven is not exactly as Binary uses it. He is making a point. God isn't about food, it is about the spirit and the positive things about it. He is not referring to the physical heaven.
     
  19. Darth Geist

    Darth Geist Jedi Master star 5

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    Oct 23, 1999
    "This cannot be interpreted as anything other than what it says."

    Why not?
     
  20. Palpazzar

    Palpazzar Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Aug 11, 2000
    Because if I say I am going to a place to prepare for you to join me, the implication is that the place is not an idea or state.

    Can you enter 'happiness' to get it ready for someone else?
     
  21. Darth Geist

    Darth Geist Jedi Master star 5

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    Oct 23, 1999
    No, but I can certainly show someone the way there. People speak of love as a place all the time, and rightly so--it's a whole new world when you're there. If Jesus was the man he claimed to be, then he knew that more than anyone.
     
  22. cydonia

    cydonia Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jun 6, 2001
    Home is where the heart is.
     
  23. Palpazzar

    Palpazzar Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Aug 11, 2000
    Point is, no you can't do it (go there first) if it is an idea. You can if it is a place.
     
  24. Darth Geist

    Darth Geist Jedi Master star 5

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    Oct 23, 1999
    Are you saying it's impossible to come up with a new idea or state of mind, then introduce it to other people?
     
  25. cydonia

    cydonia Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jun 6, 2001
    The best part of waking up is Folger's in your cup.
     
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