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The New Testament Teaches That Everyone Will Be Saved.

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Binary_Sunset, Jan 14, 2002.

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  1. cydonia

    cydonia Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jun 6, 2001
    I don't know, those three quotes binary posted seem to suggest everyone is saved, especially believers, etc. The funny thing is, i've never heard those verses before. I've studied the bible, but those verses really stick out like a sore thumb compared to what we're always told. That is,unless they are speaking metaphorically.

    Personally, whether Hitler is in Hell or Heaven has no bearing on my here and now. We deal with "evil" people on earth the best way we can if we're lucky, trial, conviction, and punishment.
     
  2. Binary_Sunset

    Binary_Sunset Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 28, 2000
    Cydonia, those three verses are definitely not metaphorical. They are not couched in the language scholars call apocalyptic (such as the book of Revelation and the Olivet discourse), nor are they parables. The language here is straightforward prose.

    Interestingly, most of the verses presented in this thread as proving hell are either from parables or apocalyptic!

    I suggest we let the straightforward verses (such as those I quoted above) illuminate the less straightforward ones. It makes no sense to interpret straightforward stuff metaphorically; or to interpret apocalyptic language and parables literally!
     
  3. cydonia

    cydonia Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jun 6, 2001
    I agree, i didn't think they were metaphorical. My sarcasm almost vanishes sometimes. What i meant was, often i'll see someone say, "well, that's metaphor" if it goes against what they want it to say, i'm probably guilty of that myself sometimes.

    I really admire that you are focusing on the orginal languages themselves and what the words meant, where they came from. Many people think that Jesus spoke conversational english, and just from studying a little japanese i know that there are some words that just can't be translated well if at all.
     
  4. Ransom

    Ransom Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jan 17, 2001
    Re: anakin girl's post. C.S. Lewis has what I think is the best and most acceptable (to me) explanation of the judgment of the wicked/non-believers, and it is similar to anakin girl's. In his view, some people reject god upon meeting him when Christ returns. They instinctively hate and fear him, or refuse to believe he exists. Those poor souls are trapped in a hell of their own creation....hell being permanent sepration from god and his love. God can't do anything about this without overpowering their free will. Lewis illustrates this idea in The Last Battle, where a group of cynical and worldly dwarves refuse to be "taken in" by the description of paradise around them (they also refuse to join in the "holy war" that took place at the end of Narnia -- "the dwarves are for the dwarves.") Their own stubborness keeps them locked in a dark stable, while everyone else finds Aslan's country within the stable. (With beautiful symbolism, Lewis has everyone enter into the kingdom of God (Christ) through a stable door, almost literally through the path that Christ paved with his human birth in the stable in Bethlehem.)

    The scriptural debate was getting way over my head, so that's all I can contribute. Binary, what is your take on this form of divine "punishment." Christ offers salvation to all, but not all are willing or able to take it. The "punishment," if it can be called that, is in the hands of the punished, not God's hands. This fits well with the idea that sin keeps one from the kingdom of heaven on earth (the state of peace and righteousness that Paul talks about). It follows that without a taste of that state before death, one cannot recognize it after death. One finds only the dark emptiness that one expects.

    Carry on. :)

     
  5. Sithdos

    Sithdos Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Nov 3, 2001
    Well, I have an extensive background in Bibical Studies.

    I must thoroughly disagree that every spirit will be saved. Now, here is what needs to be understood. If you take the time to read the Old Testament, you will learn that all of the righteous that died on the earth went to a place of paradise called Abraham's Bosom. Conversly, the unrighteous went to a place called Hades. There was a great gulf that separated the two.

    Please understand Abraham's Bosom is not Heaven. It was located under the earth as was Hades. Heaven itself resides in the third Heaven, what I mean to say is that the Bible clearly distinguishes between the three Heavens, the first being the clouds and such, the second being the entire universe, and the third being where God's throne is which is not based on time itself but would be in boundless eternity.

    When Jesus died he decended into the earth, he then resurrected all of those who resided in Abraham's Bosom, they then accompanied him to the third Heaven or Heaven itself in boundless eternity.

    There will come a time when the righteous on the earth will be raptured and taken to Heaven in a twinkling of an eye to be with God in the third Heaven then those that remain will go through seven years of tribulation. The first three years will be called the tribulation. Satan is not in Hell right now, Hell does not exist yet, he was cast down from Heaven and is the prince of the power of the air, he resides in the first and second Heaven we discussed earlier. During the tribulation, two figures will rise to serve him being the false prophet and the anti-christ. These two will create a government and control the earth with their evil ways controlled by Satan. God will cast down 21 judgements during this time, the first seven are the seals judgements, the second seven are the trumpet judgements, the third seven are the cup or platter judgements. This will be a seven year period of time, the first 3 and 1/2 call the tribulation, the last 3 1/2 called the great tribulation. Some will get saved during this time out of the fear of God's judgement but most will not. At the end of the seven year period, Jesus will return and set up his one thousand year reign but before he comes, all of the unrighteous will gather together for the battle of Armageddon. All of the people who are saved will not be destroyed but only a few will be saved the rest will be completely destroyed. The ark angel Michael will bind Satan with a chain and case him into the bottomless pit, this is not Hell but the false prophet and the anti-christ will be the first two to be cast in the lake of fire this would be Hell. Then the thousand year reign starts, now, all of those who were unrighteous will still be in Hades only two will be in the lake of fire then when the thousand year reign is over Satan will be loosed from the bottomless pit, he will deceive many as he did in the Garden of Eden and this will bring on the battle of Gog and Magog but God will stop this from taking place and cast Satan in the lake of fire with the false prophet and anti-christ. So you will have three in Hell at this time. All that were resurrected and all those that were raptured that came down with Jesus during the thousand year reign will live with God forever and not be cast into Hell, they will be judged by Jesus but they will remain in Heaven.

    But, all of those in Hates will be brought before Jesus and come before the great white throne judgement. Jesus will tell them what they did wrong and why they deserve Hell and they will all be cast into the lake of fire with the false prophet, anti-christ and Satan and be there forever.

    The New Jerusalem will be created for all those in Heaven to live with God the Father and the Son and will have access to the tree of life.

    That is what the Bible teaches.
     
  6. cydonia

    cydonia Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jun 6, 2001
    Sounds like the book of revelations.
     
  7. Sithdos

    Sithdos Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Nov 3, 2001
    That would be how the Bible deals with it.

    People think Satan is in Hell right now and do not know about Hades ect.....


    All people need to do, would be to take the time to read what the Bible has to say.
     
  8. cydonia

    cydonia Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jun 6, 2001
    That's pretty much what is going on here, though. We are discussing in minute detail single sentences and the like.
     
  9. Sithdos

    Sithdos Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Nov 3, 2001
    Well, you must take the Word as a whole, you can take little parts of the Bible and make it sound like anything.

    But when you see the whole picture, that would be when you see the truth of what is being said.
     
  10. anakin_girl

    anakin_girl Jedi Knight star 6

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    Oct 8, 2000
    "Well, you must take the Word as a whole, you can take little parts of the Bible and make it sound like anything. "

    And people will, too. You can take something out of the Bible to support pretty much anything you want to support. But that's neither here nor there. Back on topic.

    I've always had a lot of respect for C.S. Lewis. Mere Christianity is one of my all-time favorite books (with the exception of the chapter on marriage--his belief that the husband is superior to the wife has got to go--sorry guys :p .)

    Like Mr. Lewis, I also left the religion of my childhood, became an agnostic for awhile (and tried other religions), and eventually came to my own understanding of and relationship with God. I ultimately believe that God is love, and He loves us too much to want any of us to burn in hell or in any way be separated from Him for eternity. However, like I said earlier, He isn't going to drag us to Him kicking and screaming either. He has offered us a great gift, but we have to want it--He won't force it on us.
     
  11. keiran_helcyan

    keiran_helcyan Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Dec 13, 1999
    Ransom, that's cool you cited C.S.Lewis on this topic. Have you ever read "The Great Divorce"? It's one of his better books IMHO, and it deals greatly with the topic of what would happen if everyone got into heaven.

    And on a side note: does anyone else find it remotely funny that the three verses Binary cited have no possibility of being metaphorical and have to be truth, meanwhile the near 100 verses cited against his view are without a doubt metaphorical and referring to a fire that struck Jeruselem in 10AD?
     
  12. Sithdos

    Sithdos Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Nov 3, 2001
    If that were true, GOD would be a lair, the Bible talks about Hell GOD does not lie so some must go, Hell will have to be made, not because GOD would like to see some go to hell but man would not hear him and did not have faith in him, you can not tell him to be GOD the way you would like him to be GOD, he makes the rules. The Lord talked about Hell. Man has a choice, have faith and be saved or not. GOD gives you that fair choice, if you will not hear, you are doing what Satan did, you are trying to be like GOD. It does not work that way.



    You see a man and woman must come to the end of their own mind and trust what GOD has said, if not they are saying GOD, I heard you but I know a little more than you do, sorry what you said does not work for me.

    It can not work that way.

     
  13. anakin_girl

    anakin_girl Jedi Knight star 6

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    Oct 8, 2000
    That is an excellent book, k_h.

    Sithdos: I'm confused. Who are you arguing with? If it's me I'm not sure I see what you're getting at.
     
  14. keiran_helcyan

    keiran_helcyan Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Dec 13, 1999
    IMHO all the books by C.S.Lewis are a_g ;) I swear I'm the only one who checks them out from the public library.
     
  15. Sithdos

    Sithdos Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Nov 3, 2001
    I will give you a book to read.


    Ever Increasing FAITH by Smith Wiggleworth.

    The man picked up a dead woman out of a bed and pushed her up on a wall and said in the Name of GOD walk, and she did.

    That was just one of many.
     
  16. Doright

    Doright Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jun 10, 1999
    Thank you for answering my question Mr. Sunset. I do disagree but you make a point for what you say. I tend to believe that some people will go to hell. I do not believe that includes good people of other religions like some of my faith believe. I do think there are evil and bad people who will suffer when they are judged. IMO
    Just different interpretations of the same stuff. It will be interesting when we get there to find out which was right. Sometimes I think God may be amused/pleased by our trying to figure this stuff out. Kind of like how I get a smile when I see my son trying solve a puzzle.
     
  17. Binary_Sunset

    Binary_Sunset Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 28, 2000
    I'll respond tomorrow to the excellent posts that have been recently posted here. First, though, I want to assure keiran helcyan that there are more than three verses that support my position. Indeed, I find it hard to randomly turn to a page in the New Testament and not find blessed assurance that God will save us all. Here are some passages for your consideration:

    Jn 4:42 and 1Jn 4:14-Jesus is Savior of the world.

    Rm 5:15-21-In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live.

    Eph 1:10-All come into Him at the fulness of times.

    Phl 2:9-11-Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord.

    Acts 3:20,21-Restitution of all

    Luke 2:10-Jesus will be joy to all people.

    Titus 2:11-Grace has brought salvation to all men.

    Rm 8:19-21-Creation set at liberty.

    Col 1:20-All reconciled unto God.

    1Cor 4:5-All will have praise of God.

    Rm 11:32-All subject to unbelief, mercy on all.

    Rm 11:36-All from, through, and to him.

    Eph 4:10-Jesus will fill all things.

    1Cor 15:28-God will be all in all.

    Rm 11:15-Reconciliation of the world.

    Heb 1:2-Jesus is heir of all things.

    Jn 17:2-Jesus gives eternal life to all that His Father gave Him-How many did the Father give Him? Answer: Jn 3:35-The Father gave Him all things.

    None of these verses is from parables or apocalyptic passages. They are all straight-forward statements of fact. They are overwhelming assurance that God will save us all.
     
  18. Wylding

    Wylding Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 13, 2000
    Nice posts sithdos.

    I hope my post above that spells-out the distinction between ?heaven? and ?the kingdom of heaven? clears things up. I believe that at the resurrection we will all rise in physical bodies and enjoy everlasting life in a physical paradise. It will be Eden restored.

    Sunset, you're making distinctions about levels of heaven and giving some interesting arguments that are compelling from your viewpoint, but the bible does not support these views. Very imaginative, but not supported by the bible. The bible clearly does not support the idea that all will be in paradise. Nor that paradise is here now. In fact, Christ on the cross told the thief that he would be in Paradise with Christ that day, not that he was currently in hell or already in heaven.

    You are essentially making the argument that the Jews orginally made when Christ came, that Christ was the messiah who had come to rescue them from the Romans. And that His kingdom would be an earthly one. However, Christ's own words show that he was more concerned with saving humanity by his sacrafice than establishing a kingdom here and now(or rather then).

    That said, I can imagine that you are going to tell me that I am wrong. That Christ's kingdom descended to earth when he arose from the dead. That his kingdom is within everyone as the holy spirit the comfortor. Also a compelling argument, but really an inaccurate argument in the end. I can make arguments for both with texts. However, it's been said that you have to take the bible as a whole and really that is the key to understanding it. You don't seem to want to do that, so we won't ever really get a straight answer. You have the right to your opinion and I respect that opinion as an imaginative one. So, in the end, let's just agree to disagree.

    Edit: All of those verses are contingent upon one accepting the gift Christ gave us so that he may stand in our place at the time of the Judgement. He was the only one to live a sinless life. He didn't have to die, but to save humanity he did die. And so doing he saved all who would claim him as their savior. Otherwise at the judgement we stand alone and must be judged. Unless we are sinless we will be counted among the goats. The only way to be counted sinless Binary is to accept the gift Christ gave. That is key. Other than this glaring omission your argument is essentially correct.

    Incidentally, you're turning Christianity into Buddhism. Which, I suspect, has been your goal for quite sometime.
     
  19. cydonia

    cydonia Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jun 6, 2001
    "All of those verses are contingent upon one accepting the gift Christ gave us so that he may stand in our place at the time of the Judgement."

    That's not how it looks on this end of the computer screen. Why don't they all say "all.....if one accepts Christ's gift?" Then? There's also an absense of "can" or "could" as well.

    Edit- why do people always have to question people's motives in these threads? Wylding i've noticed you authored the zen and tao thread, and suggested that they and christianity can compliment each other.
     
  20. IellaWessiriNRI

    IellaWessiriNRI Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jan 3, 2001
    II Thessalonians 1:8-9 (NIV)

    "[Jesus] will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power."
     
  21. Wylding

    Wylding Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 13, 2000
    Wylding i've noticed you authored the zen and tao thread, and suggested that they and christianity can compliment each other.

    Cydonia (interesting name by the way), I did author that thread and I do think that many religions compliment each other. That many have similar elements and themes running through them. That doesn't mean that I can't question someone's motives. Afterall, if you want to make a case that Christianity is similar to Buddhism, just make a thread stating that and discuss it rationally. I say, don't make a highly sensational claim such as the one Sunset is making that is an outright contradiction to Christ's own words on the subject. Hmm who am I going to believe, Christ or Sunset? It's a tough one. One was the Son of God, the founder of the Christian faith and the other is someone on the internet with a theory...It's tough, but I'll get through it alright.

    And, Cydonia, if you are implying that I shouldn't make a judgement because I have ecclectic tastes then I would point you to my username :)

     
  22. cydonia

    cydonia Jedi Knight star 5

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    Jun 6, 2001
    Well i'm not going to speak for binary but that list up above with the word "all" bolded says what it says. Maybe i'm biased to read it one way, while others are biased to read it another but in themselves they are quite clear. Unless this means that the bible contradicts itself? Is that even possible?
     
  23. Wylding

    Wylding Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 13, 2000
    The problem with any argument over any religion involving any sacred texts is that you have to view the texts as a whole, not take them in piecemeal. Otherwise, yes, you can get contradictions and this is one of the problems with the bible. It all has to be viewed in context. Same thing with the Bhagavad-Gita.
     
  24. crazy_blonde

    crazy_blonde Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Dec 11, 2001
    First of all,I am not trying to be rude or judge any of you,but whoever wrote this,I'm sorry,but you must have understood.The only way you can got to Heaven is to be "saved".Which means repent for all sins and live for Him for the rest of your life and let Him lead your life.You have to believe that He died for your sins and that He is the savior.Also,if you have never known God,God will give all those people a chance to know Him before He comes back.i don't care what religion they are,He will give them a chance to know him and be saved. :)
     
  25. crazy_blonde

    crazy_blonde Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Dec 11, 2001
    LittleLadyVadar-You mean to tell me that people can't control killing people or robbing people?That statement made NO sense.People make a choice if they kill someone.People make choices for everything.You mean to tell me people have no control over killing others?Also,the only reason people are sent to Hell is because they didn't get saved and they were horrible people who didnot repent.We control our actions.And,I am sorry to hear you dont believe in God and Jesus.
     
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