The NJO Critics Club

Discussion in 'EU Community' started by Jades Fire, May 25, 2001.

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  1. Jades Fire Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 1998
    star 4
    Tired of the NJO?
    Tired of all the violence in the NJO?
    Tired of the two-dimensional, generic scifi-fantasy villians?
    Tired of the dumbing down of the adult heros?
    Tired of seeing the adult heros being pushed off-stage so the Solo kids can take center stage?
    Tired of being flamed by NJO gushers who think the NJO is the greatest thing since sliced bread?
    Tired of seeing good Bantam authors repeatedly flamed in an attempt to elevate the NJO authors?
    Tired of being condescended to and told you just don't understand?
    Don't think the NJO feels like Star Wars?

    Then join the NJO critics club. Membership is open to all who don't think the NJO is the best idea that Del Rey could have come up with. Even if you liked some of the NJO, feel free to join. Personally, I really enjoyed Balance Point, Onslaught and Hero's Trial. If you pretty much hate the EU, don't even bother.

    Join my BOYCOTT of the NJO!
    If you just have to read the books, borrow them, don't buy them!

    EDIT: Small change made by Jades Fire's request.
  2. Kwenn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2001
    star 5
    I hope this will not become a basher's thread. Just a warning. Anyway, at least you are expressing your opinions.
  3. Dewlanna Solo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 1999
    star 4
  4. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Figures Del would join this club. Anyways....just don't bash it. Critics bash stuff but they also point out the good stuff. :D
  5. barnsthefatjedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2001
    star 5
    Come now, FID, you of all people should know that there is nothing wrong with bashing. It's true though that many people dislike bashing. However, I think we all know of a little somewhere I have established where bashing is welcomed with open arms......

    I don't mind the NJO, but I'll admit that a lot of it has lost the Star Wars feel and has adopted a much more Star trek approach.
  6. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Hmm...that may be, but this is a critics club, LoL. We just hate what we bash, LoL.
  7. Jades Fire Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 1998
    star 4
    Oh, puleeze!
    Goodness, I've been warned by the EUDF. /shaking in my boots/
    Go bother someone else, you self-appointed vigilanties.
    I am not a mindless basher.
    You don't like it. Don't come in here.

    This thread is a safe haven for NJO critics to talk about why they don't like the NJO without fear of being
    1) flamed for criticising the NJO,
    2) told to leave,
    3) told to stop reading,
    4) told to stop complaining,
    5) blah, blah, blah, and etcetera, etcetera etcetera.

    Take a look at where I post. I am not afraid of getting into a heated debate about the NJO in the Literature forum. It's just that the Lit forum is filled with NJO gushers and sometimes I need a place to chill with like-minded people.

    Most NJO critics aren't into bashing for bashing sake, or bashing the NJO solely because their favorite character didn't get enough screen time. They have VERY valid reasons why they don't like the NJO. Most are erudite enough to express why they don't like the NJO.
  8. barnsthefatjedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2001
    star 5
    I like this thread. It has exactly the same ideals as the HC. I hope that last paragraph wasn't insinuating that HC members are mindless bashers. If so, you have clearly never entered the thread and actually read what we say.
  9. Kwenn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2001
    star 5
    I'm sorry, Jades Fire, I didn't mean to hurt you. All I was saying was, don't let it turn into a basher's thread. Then it will be locked. A friendly warning, that is all.
  10. Jeter Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2000
    star 1
    "Tired of being condescended to and told you just don't understand?"--

    LOL! Yes, I'm told that *all* the time. Hmmm...I guess I'm just on a lower plain than everyone else. Oh well. No loss. It's nice down here. :)
  11. barnsthefatjedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2001
    star 5
    Reads sig

    '"I'd love to turn you on..."--The Beatles'

    Shudders

  12. sweetheart Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2001
    star 4
    Hmm....I have no idea what you are talking about Jeter :D
  13. Dark_Luke Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2001
    star 1
    I for one, don't like the NJO. Chewie dying, Luke getting 'tired' becuase he can't use the Force, Anikan being even dumber than normal, etc. etc. etc.. The only good thing is that Jania made Rogue squadron. Oh yeah, and did i mention I hate the way their just knocking off planets? Hmmm, I think I'll kill Ithor today. I'm critizing Mike Stackpole's writing, I'm critizing the books in general. And, Vector Prime REALLY sucked. I mean, they explain how no one can get out of the galaxy becuase of the inability to go through the barrier or whatever, than break that. In Star by Star, apparently, Coruascant is going to fall. GREAT books! (I WAS being sarcastic you know). I have recently started a new, non-Star Wars series, and I think I'll ditch the NJO for them.
  14. MariahJade2 Former Fan Fiction Archive Editor

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2001
    star 5
    Well this is nice. Count me in. The closer we get to Rebirth the queasier I get, thinking of all the things that can go wrong.
  15. crystal417 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2000
    star 4
    NJO critcs club, eh? Sweet I have some things to comment about those books.

    They are wonderful books except for the following.
    (a)They bash Han & Leia's relationship
    (b)They killed Chewie!
    (c)Too many planets are beinging ruined
    (d)It seems like a no win situation but their is always a way out.
    (e)They made it seem as if Leia didn't care about Chewie
    (f)Borsk's in control

    They are in general great books. I have bought everyone to date and can never seem to put them down. They also bring back a lot of characters you haven't seen in a long time and thats really great.
  16. Mastadge Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 7
    I criticize everything -- that doesn't mean I don't like it

    "Tired of the NJO?"
    Nope, I'm loving it so far.


    "Tired of all the violence in the NJO?"
    There's no more violence in NJO than in any other Star Wars so far, it's just more gruesome.


    "Tired of the two-dimensional, generic scifi-fantasy villians?"
    I assume you mean villains. No, I'm not. They were only so horrible two dimensional in MAS's books, and in each newer story they're becoming more and more fleshed out.

    "Tired of the dumbing down of the adult heros?"
    I assume you mean heroes. No -- in fact, I have no idea what you're talking about. Our heroes are acting no more "dumbed down" than they did in Bantam, and often less so. Give me some specific instances of this "dumbing down," if you please.


    "Tired of seeing the adult heros being pushed off-stage so the Solo kids can take center stage?"
    That's the point of these books -- "New Jedi Order." With a title like that, what were you expecting? It's about the New Jedi, and specifically the Solo kids, as they are the one's best connected to the old family.


    "Tired of being flamed by NJO bootlickers who think the NJO is the greatest thing since sliced bread?"
    Just as tired as said bootlickers are of being flamed by people who seem to think that NJO is the worst thing to hit the street since indoor plumbing was invented.

    "Tired of seeing good Bantam authors repeatedly flamed in an attempt to elevate the NJO authors?"
    Several of the Bantam authors were commonly flamed even before NJO, and it's actually been better recently. The only one who's been flamed more than before NJO has been Zahn. And speaking of which, I'm also kind of tired of seeing certain NJO authors mercilessly bashed.

    "Tired of being condescended to and told you just don't understand?"
    That's the feeling I'm getting right now. I fully appreciate the fact that you may not like NJO, but I don't understand this constant need to start these stupid flame wars about it. As far as I can tell, this thread is an instigation, not a defense. And someone telling you that you don't understand is not necessarily condescension. And you obviously are just as intolerant of people who don't understand your POV.

    "Don't think the NJO feels like Star Wars?"
    I personally feel that while the extragalactic invasion may not be so Star Wars-ey, everything since then has unfolded in a very Star Wars fashion.

    "Then join the NJO critics club. Membership is open to all who don't think the NJO is the best idea that Del Rey could have come up with."
    Well, it may or may not be the "best idea." Maybe they had just fired their most creative geniuses, or maybe their ideas of "best idea" and yours just don't mesh. They are businessmen -- their job is to sell product. They felt that NJO was the best way to do that. They had no precedent in SW, but looking at large story arcs in other sci-fi franchises such as B5 and ST, and seeing how well they had sold, they made an educated guess.

    "Even if you liked some of the NJO, feel free to join. Personally, I really enjoyed Balance Point, Onslaught and Hero's Trial."
    So, you really enjoyed half of the NJO (before Conquest anyway), and yet you're boycotting it before it's even half over. Logical.

    "Most NJO critics aren't into bashing for bashing sake, or bashing the NJO solely because their favorite character didn't get enough screen time. They have VERY valid reasons why they don't like the NJO. Most are erudite enough to express why they don't like the NJO."
    I could say the same for most of us pro-NJO people out there. Are reasons are valid, et cetera. It's just a difference of opinion.

    I really like this thread and the ideal behind it, yet I find that it was opened really badly. It's pretty much saying, "don't start a flame war," and then giving a really big invitation to do just that.
  17. Bror Jace Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 1999
    star 3
    Well, let me chime in here and make it 'official' that I think the NJO is DREADFUL.

    Taking Star Wars and making it more like generic sci-fi (Star Trek, Babylon 5 and the countless TV shows and movies that were MAYBE profitable but quickly forgotten) and less like the movies and the better Bantam books that made it an unprecedented success was a HORRIBLE idea.

    It was foolish to lock Star Wars into a weird, untested story arc for FIVE YEARS before the fans even had a chance to comment whether they liked it or not. This is crass, commercialization at its worst. At least with Bantam, a bad book or trilogy was only a few books long at worst and you could look forward to something better (or at least different) in a few months. If you don't like the prequel stories (they don't really interest me because TPM's story was so weak) and you don't like the NJO, you're out of luck for the foreseeable future as far as Star Wars literature is concerned.

    I don't like people (fans and creators) that are practically brand new to Star Wars telling me, a 24 year fan, that it's MY PROBLEM problem if I think that what they are producing isn?t as good as the previous material and that Star Wars, as a result, is slowly and steadily losing its soul.

    I don't like stories that used to be for adults transformed into some weird amalgamation of dumbed-down-adult and young-adult literature. Bring back books for readers who like to be challenged!

    I don?t like stories that make one side or they other stupid and foolish to give the other a cheap victory.

    I don?t like characters being killed off by committee ... and then listening to two years of corporate spin as to how meaningful the event was supposed to be.

    I don?t like Star Wars being used merely as a tool to give sci-fi and fantasy authors a wider audience for their other work.

    :(
  18. Mastadge Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 7
    Please note, I'm trying to be un-bashful and respectful; If that stops let me know.


    "Taking Star Wars and making it more like generic sci-fi (Star Trek, Babylon 5 and the countless TV shows and movies that were MAYBE profitable but quickly forgotten) and less like the movies and the better Bantam books that made it an unprecedented success was a HORRIBLE idea."
    Star Wars in the NJO isn't more like "generic sci-fi." The extragalactic invasion itself was a little un-Star Wars-ey, as I've said, but since then everything has unfolded in a pretty Star Wars manner. And also as I've said before, from some people's POVs it may have been a HORRIBLE idea, but it was a good marketing move. They were trying for several goals:
    1)To make money. They'd seen in the past that large story arcs sell well and tend to keep people's interest from book to book.
    2)To make the new story accessible to new SW fans who hadn't read all the Bantam works. Hence bringing in a SW newbie author for the first book, bringing in an extragalactic threat from outside the galaxy rather than the Unknown Regions, which many wouldn't know anything about, and hence the lack of established secondary characters other than Kyp and Mara in the first book.
    3)To please the fans that were around already. Obviously they couldn't please everyone, but IMHO this story is a lot more interesting than the fifty-millionth Empire Reborn plot would have been. They've brought in several of the better-loved Bantam authors, and have clearly been listening to and reacting to our comments and criticisms, insofar as it wouldn't majorly effect the story.
    My suggestion if you're unhappy is to write a letter, or even send a petition (diplomatically written of course; hostility is never well-received), to one of the NJO or SW editors c/o Del Rey books, and encourage others who feel the same way to do the same thing. You can't stop the NJO, but you may prevent them from doing similar stuff in the future.

    "It was foolish to lock Star Wars into a weird, untested story arc for FIVE YEARS before the fans even had a chance to comment whether they liked it or not. This is crass, commercialization at its worst. At least with Bantam, a bad book or trilogy was only a few books long at worst and you could look forward to something better (or at least different) in a few months. If you don't like the prequel stories (they don't really interest me because TPM's story was so weak) and you don't like the NJO, you're out of luck for the foreseeable future as far as Star Wars literature is concerned."
    They didn't lock Star Wars into a "weird, untested" arc. They locked one portion of the Star Wars mythos, in one portion of the SW storytelling medium, into a project that has been previously, in other franchises, proven successful. And yes, this is commercialization. We live in a capitalistic society -- money makes the world go 'round. What else would you expect? And you criticize the NJO for being too different from the movies, and then immediately state that you have a problem with at least one quarter of the movies? I mean, Rogue Planet, while not a great book, had nothing to do with the "weak prequel story." I just think it's kind of strange to say "I don't like it, it's too different from the movies, and oh, by the way, I have a problem with the movies too." Also, as for the Bantam books, you acknowledged that there were bad and good stories. The NJO is the same way. I thought that Dark Tide was abysmal, but just a few months later, I had the awesome Agents of Chaos. It's not all one big story, guaranteed to dissapoint the whole way through.

    "I don't like people (fans and creators) that are practically brand new to Star Wars telling me, a 24 year fan, that it's MY PROBLEM problem if I think that what they are producing isn?t as good as the previous material and that Star Wars, as a result, is slowly and steadily losing its soul."
    Yes, there are fans and several creators of and in the NJO that are new to SW, but the majority of the creators as well as a great number of
  19. Dewlanna Solo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 1999
    star 4
    Mastadge, your two posts are much too long for me to address this morning, but I'd like to comment on two parts.
    ------------------------------
    First: "Please note, I'm trying to be un-bashful and respectful; If that stops let me know."
    ------------------------------
    I think you should reread your first post. You were a bit rude. And very close to flaming in several places.


    And then this part:
    ------------------------------
    "My suggestion if you're unhappy is to write a letter, or even send a petition (diplomatically written of course; hostility is never well-received), to one of the NJO or SW editors c/o Del Rey books, and encourage others who feel the same way to do the same thing. You can't stop the NJO, but you may prevent them from doing similar stuff in the future. "
    -------------------------------
    Mastadge, we've done that, we've written letters. You want to know what sort of replies we've gotten? We've found that as long as ones letters are nothing but praise for the product they are answered politely. But any criticisms, or even a suggestion that the stories are less then pleasing, are met with the every thing from the standard "So sorry you didn't like the book, perhaps the next one will be to you liking," (book after book has not been to MY liking) to total rejection of any other point of view, to extreme rudeness on the part of a certain author.
    It seems in this case politely expressing ones view has little or no effect.
  20. Mastadge Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 7
    Sorry if I sounded rude, I was trying to respond in a tone similar to the one in which the post was written. And for justification for my knocking about of Dark Tide, you can find it in multiple places in the Lit forum.

    I am now going to write a letter addressing these concerns and several others (any that you want specifically mentioned I'll be glad to include) to the SW editors at Del Rey with copies to the NJO authors so far, just to see what kind of response I get. Because I agree that it's wholly inappropriate for a portion of the fan base or any single person to be rubbed off or barked off without any consideration of their concerns. I happen to like the NJO, but that doesn't mean everyone else has to, eh?
  21. Hope Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 1999
    star 4
    <<"Tired of seeing the adult heros being pushed off-stage so the Solo kids can take center stage?"
    That's the point of these books -- "New Jedi Order." With a title like that, what were you expecting?>>

    If this is the point of these books (and it appears to be), then this is just sad. Why is there a need to push anyone to the background? The New Jedi Order is comprised of a diverse group of beings (young, mature, female, male, Humans and other species). This new Order is not just about the Solo kids and their teeny-bopper friends.
    Kam, Luke, Streen etc. are as much a part of this Order as Anakin and co. Instead of shoving a particular group into the background, why not have them ALL working together as a united Order.

  22. Anakin SkySolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Dewlanna--

    I think you should reread your first post. You were a bit rude. And very close to flaming in several places.

    I don't recall Mastadge calling anyone "bootlickers." I'm hard put to see how anyone can regard anything he said as more rude or inflammatory than that epithet from the orginal poster.
  23. Mastadge Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 7
    "If this is the point of these books (and it appears to be), then this is just sad. Why is there a need to push anyone to the background? The New Jedi Order is comprised of a diverse group of beings (young, mature, female, male, Humans and other species). This new Order is not just about the Solo kids and their teeny-bopper friends.
    Kam, Luke, Streen etc. are as much a part of this Order as Anakin and co. Instead of shoving a particular group into the background, why not have them ALL working together as a united Order."

    The older guys have been getting as much screen time as the "teeny-boppy" friends. And old heroes -- well, Han has clearly been the focus of one of the books, and Luke and Mara are a big focus of the next one. A big part of the plot of this books are the Solo kids growing into their own, and unfortunately SW books as a general rule aren't long or complex enough to allow for more than two or three plotlines at once. But Kam and especially Kyp and Miko all had their screen time, and Dae'sharacor and Ganner and all those from Dark Tide were hardly "teeny-boppers" either. They were new characters, but still older. Additionally, this decision was made because a very large part, about 50%, of the SW reading base is, like it or not, made up of people between the ages of 15 and 25. Books about the next generation growing up in SW, about teens, will probably appeal more to teens than books focusing more on the issues faced by 45+ yr old heroes.
    And so, yes, with books around 300 pages, each book will focus on one or two, and for the duration of that book the other will be pushed to the background.
  24. MariahJade2 Former Fan Fiction Archive Editor

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2001
    star 5
    Comic books...Kid stuff
    Gamer stuff....Kid stuff
    Yjk....Kid stuff
    JJK....Kid stuff
    Njo.... Any adult problem glossed over and the focus is mainly on the kids.

    Please tell me where an adult who wants to read a good SW novel where our hero's behave like themselves can now go now? What's
    left?

    Fan fic?
  25. Anakin SkySolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    You forgot:

    Movies with teenage heroes--kid stuff.
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