The NJO Critics Club

Actually accoring to the novels Luke was supposed to be about 20 during ANH. Not really that much of a kid even though Han called him one.

 

"Comic books...Kid stuff
Gamer stuff....Kid stuff
Yjk....Kid stuff
JJK....Kid stuff
Njo.... Any adult problem glossed over and the focus is mainly on the kids."
Del Rey prequel era stuff? Besides, why generalize comic books as "kid stuff?" There are millions of adults out there who read and or collect comics...They're not exaclt like sunday comic strips...Also, I may be missing something, but what adult problems are glossed over in NJO that were so apparent in Bantam? PLease enlighten me...

"Please tell me where an adult who wants to read a good SW novel where our hero's behave like themselves can now go now? What's
left?"
Read Anakin SkySolo's post -- the movies, particularly the recent ones, are aimed at kids.

 

MariahJade--

The traditional age of adulthood is 21. So 20 still counts as a kid, from a certain point of view.

Also, other sources (e.g., the Star Wars Role-playing Game Rulebook) describe Luke and Leia as 18 at the time of ANH. Jacen and Jaina are nearly 18 (they probably will be 18 in Rebirth). Anakin Skywalker will only be 19 in Episode II.

So I repeat.

Using your logic, movies with teenage heroes must be kid stuff.

 

"The traditional age of adulthood is 21. So 20 still counts as a kid, from a certain point of view."

What tradition is that? Others are at 18, others at 13 or 12, others just once you're old enough to perform something or do something correctly...what tradition says 21?

 

In addition, how is Gamer "kid stuff?" The short fiction is on the same level as the short fiction pulblished as the tales of anthologies, and the articles sure aren't aimed at kids...

 

Mastadge--

A Western (including American) tradition that made the age of 21 the traditional age of voting, drinking, inheritance, the end of parental responsibility for their kids...you name it. That tradition is largely part of the past in the West (though the US has kept the drinking age at 21). The new age of majority is now 18 in most places.

I assume the Gamer question isn't directed at me, since I agree with you that the gaming literature isn't any more "kid stuff" than other non-juvenile fiction.

 

Mastadge said: >>I really like this thread and the ideal behind it, yet I find that it was opened really badly. It's pretty much saying, "don't start a flame war," and then giving a really big invitation to do just that.<<

>>Please note, I'm trying to be un-bashful and respectful; If that stops let me know. <<


Hi Mastadge,

I don't recall debating the merits of the NJO with you over in the Lit forum. At least you aren't a regular participant in said discussions like Anakin SkySolo.

The only thing in my opening post that was inflamatory was the word "bootlickers". My apologies if I offended you. The rest of my opening remarks are legitimate questions that I've asked or seen other critics ask of the NJO. The tone... the tone comes from someone who really didn't like 3 books, liked 3 books, and thought one was just okay, but doesn't like the NJO as a whole.

Are you familiar with marketing, product marketing or advertising? I "marketed" my opening post. Hook em right from the beginning; get their attention quickly or lose them. I obviously hooked you.

Mastadge, I've seen you really didn't like Ruin. Good. Neither did I. I see you thought Conquest was just okay. Good, same here. If you'd care to say why, please do so, don't worry about restating something said before. However, please note that this thread will probably be inhabited by people critical of the NJO "as a whole", something which you are not.

I don't want this thread to turn into the same old NJO haters, NJO lovers debate you can find anywhere in the Lit forum.

 

AniSS:Movies with teenage heroes--kid stuff.

Luke was 20 when I saw ANH in '77. A young man entering adulthood.
Han, nearly as much the hero as Luke, was actually older than most of the people in
the audience.

In the next 2 movies, the heros were not teens at all.

TPM was a movie with teenage heros and it was indeed kid stuff.

Star Wars, books and movies, had, in the past, appealed to a very wide age range, everything from 5 to 50, with heros of various ages from Yoda to Luke to the young Solo kids.
No one age group of characters was over emphasized, no one age group of fans felt left out.

This seems to have changed.
The emphasis has shifted to a group of teenaged characters (in the prequels too).
The older heros may be getting equal page counts but they are not in starring roles.
The older fans are feeling snubbed.
Younger fans are going to outgrow these teen heros in a few years as they outgrew the kid heros of the JJK and YJK.
DelRey is (IMO) making short-sighted marketing decisions and decisions based on faulty thinking.
They are treating SW as an ordinary franchise series with an ephemeral fan base. Most of these types of series DO have a high turn over of fans as people outgrow the series and the genre.
Star Wars has always been different. The fans are not the here-today-gone-tomorrow types that flock to the franchise hit of the moment.
They are people who have stayed with the series thru the worst of Bantam knowing that something new and different would be coming soon.
Fans who have given the NJO more chances than the series really deserves because they love Star Wars so much.

 

You guys do know that critics don't just bash stuff, right? They say good things about stuff they like, and bad stuff about stuff they don't. The title of this thread is incorrect.

I propose a change to "The NJO Bash Club."

Also, most critics find SOMETHING good in everything they reveiw.

 

what Wedge88 said.

 

Dewlanna--

Luke was 20 when I saw ANH in '77. A young man entering adulthood.

Jacen and Anakin are young men entering adulthood. Jaina is a young woman entering adulthood. Same difference, different characters.

Perhaps Luke was 20, but that age was never stated in the movie. The difference is academic. Whether 18 or 20, Luke was a naive kid leaving home for the first time. That's how he was written, and that's how Mark Hamill played him.

In the next 2 movies, the heros were not teens at all.

That's right. Luke and Leia are in their early 20s. Still young adults. By the time the NJO is finished, the twins will be 20. Not a big difference. Except to a few. The difference is even less when compared to Anakin Skywalker, who will be 19 in SW2 and 21 in SW3. Padme is a bit older, but not hugely. All in all, we are talking about young heroes who are teens or barely into adulthood.

Dewlanna, the Solo kids are roughly the same ages as the Skywalkers of the films--and they started training earlier than any of them. The films depict young characteris in their coming-of-age hero's journeys in the context of a galaxy-spanning conflict. The NJO does the same--without (apparently) killing off the middle-aged characters like the movies do.

That's Star Wars redux, IMO.

 

I'm nearing the point in NJO where I am ready to throw down the books and stuff them into the trash out of pure frustration.

Okay, NJO is has some pretty decent scenes in them, I like how Mara and Luke's relationship is growing... though why they waited six years to have kids while Han and Leia had kids barely a year since they were married is beyond me. Little Skycrawler's birth will be like the Skywalker Twins birth in the PT.

I have little respect for what Delrey is doing, pushing the older characters aside to give room for the newer ones. I don't exactly consider NJO kid stuff, but really it revolves around teens and who really wants to read about other green horned children who aren't even old enough to graduate from highschool? Anakin is fifteen when NJO starts out and what I don't like is how the authors are throwing the Solo kids from one adventure to another. It just doesn't really seen real for kids to be having any sort of adventures at all, granted that Luke was eighteen when ANH started and Ani and Ami are only nine and fourteen, but even still, I found TPM a bit unbelievable, just as I'm finding NJO a bit tiresome.

Han and Leia's relationship is another thing, they add tension to their relationship because Delrey believes that H/L's relationship is getting too boring so hey! Let's spice things up a little by having them split up so that way Han can go back being a smuggler and have his own adventures as well! Though BP was great in how they got back together.

Chewie's death... well I admit that really came as a shock to me. I didn't see that coming, I really have nothing to comment about Chewie's death, just that everytime I read NJO I keep on forgetting that he's dead, no matter how much moaning Han puts in. I guess he was going to die someday, so I suppose Chewie's death was done nicely.

Luke and Mara, again, done nicely, I love how they're relationship is going. You can tell that they're closely connected to each other, though the problem is that they don't seem to have a lot scenes done. I was hopping in Conquest we'd see some stuff through Luke and Mara's pov on the birth of their child and what they anticipate. I hope Rebirth is done nicely.

Dark Tide had some nice action in it, the evolution of Corran Horn has taken it's last step because he's a full fledged Jedi now. He's a friend and supportor to the main characters. *possible spoiler* I'm going to be disappointed if they actually kill him. *end spoiler* off in SBS

VP... I really have nothing much to say, it's one of those books where you read it once and then forget about it.

BP I don't know why some people were disappointed in it. I thought Kathy Tyers did a great job, she always knows how to capture the characters personality. Heck, the way she writes the Solo kids, I could start liking them. I was just disappointed that she wouldn't be writing the birth of Skycrawler.

Conquest, good book, great action, you finally meet some Yuuzahn Vong who has got more a personality and better motives in what they do then just out of religious fanatism. I hope Greg Keyes keeps up the good work in Rebirth.

 

Just one small observation regarding Bror's post...

I don't like people (fans and creators) that are practically brand new to Star Wars telling me, a 24 year fan...

I suspect that the vast majority of people involved in the creation of Star Wars literature, or who post to the TFN Lit Board, and are over (about) 30 years old are 24-year fans of Star Wars. Certainly I am. From their public statements, I know that "new" (post-1998) SW authors Greg Bear, Bob Salvatore, and Elaine Cunningham have also been fans from the first release of Star Wars.

 

Hmm... I'm liking this thread, thanks - Jades fire for starting it.

Aniss - By the time the NJO is finished, the twins will be 20.

AniSS, most of the critics here are I think are passionate about the older characters and by your words above, it shows that the NJO are about the Solo kids coming of age. And about the skycrawler coming into the SW arena. All of this equals to 1) either the older characters take a back seat, 2) the older characters take a further far at the end of the back seat.

By the time they finish the NJO, it'll be a new era. A new SW...A new galaxy. And hopefully, with letters and threads like this, I would like to try my best to stop that.. to hang on to the 'old' SW that I know and love. What's so wrong with that? Is it not fiction after all? Why do soaps on TV last for years and years?

Like I've said before in Lit, I know it's a marketing ploy and a new strategy to sell more SW books. And yes, I know that they're going to consolidate all the new and old characters into one series. I just feel that there must be a better way than this very long series. And with such talented writers on board too.

That said and done, frankly, I still like the trilogy method. If the authors are allowed to finish their own series with their own 'Empire' or 'Vongs'. If Star Trek could meet different foes in every journey, why not SW? It's a big universe after all.

Then we could have a thread where we compare which one of the books that we like instead of this on and on and on and on debating about ONE series. Just my opinion, it'll probably won't work because it might not have the same hook as a series and cliffhangers would... but the passion and creativity of each author would definitely make for interesting reading and comparison.

 

I liked Balance Point, Onslaught, and Hero's Trial.

I didn't like Vector Prime, Ruin, and Jedi Eclipse.

I thought Conquest was okay. Some good, some bad.

The NJO as a whole is a medicore story. None of the NJO books would make my top ten.

Are you happy now Wedge88, Trias, etc?

And as far as my BOYCOTT goes, it is a time-honored form of protest. If you back up your displeasure with action, ie, not buying books, someone will realize you are serious. As Dewlanna pointed out, a letter will only get you a "sorry you didn't like that book, maybe the next book will be to your liking." letter in reply. If you write a letter, but buy the next book anyway, Del Rey doesn't have any impetus to alter things because you are still buying the books. Only when the sales numbers drop off will Del Rey realize that maybe they need to change a few things.

 

Me: "Tired of the dumbing down of the adult heros?"
Mastadge: I assume you mean heroes. No -- in fact, I have no idea what you're talking about. Our heroes are acting no more "dumbed down" than they did in Bantam, and often less so. Give me some specific instances of this "dumbing down," if you please.

Mastadge, saying that the heros are not more dumbed down now than they did in the Bantam run is a logical fallacy. Just because some Bantam stories dumbed down the characters shouldn't be an excuse for Del Rey to do the same. Two wrongs don't make a right.

You want examples? Try these. Luke Skywalker leaving the Jedi Academy open to potential attack. Staying on Yavin 4, which is in the middle of enemy territory, with a handful of adults protecting the Jedi children -- the next generation of Jedi -- seems to be to be the height of stupidity. The minute Yavin 4 became part of occupied space, a smart leader would evacuate to safer environs rather than waiting for a threat to force the issue. However, we can't have a smart adult if the plot calls for 16-year old Anakin to ride to the rescue.

Talon Karrde blindly accepting the Hutts movement of spice as a sure sign of the next Vong invasion. Karrde always sifted the information, looking at all possible scenarios. Could the Hutts be deliberately doing this as part of their pact with the Vong? Could the Vong be manipulating the Hutts? Those options were never considered. The spice shipment information was accepted at face value. For an information broker, he sure seemed rather dumb.

Mastadge, I am not going to reply to the rest of your posts because you were being deliberately rude and disrespectful.

This thread was NOT set up to bash-only, yet several people seem to be trying to turn this thread into a Bash-fest by bashing the critics. Please stop.

 

Wedge88:"You guys do know that critics don't just bash stuff, right? They say good things about stuff they like, and bad stuff about stuff they don't. The title of this thread is incorrect.

I propose a change to "The NJO Bash Club."

Also, most critics find SOMETHING good in everything they reveiw. "
Matthew Trias: "what Wedge88 said.
Um, fellas, you didn't pay much attention the JF's first post, did you?
JF:"Then join the NJO critics club. Membership is open to all who don't think the NJO is the best idea that Del Rey could have come up with. Even if you liked some of the NJO, feel free to join. Personally, I really enjoyed Balance Point, Onslaught and Hero's Trial.
Mastadge recognized that not everything JF said was negative:"So, you really enjoyed half of the NJO (before Conquest anyway)....."

crystal417 while pointing out the parts she didn't care for said:"They are in general great books."

As stated in the opening post, this thread is a place to voice ones displeasure with the NJO.
But if it makes Wedge and Matt happy, I'll tell y'all what I DO like about the NJO

Parts on the NJO have been good. I enjoyed Balance Point and Hero's Trial. I did think they would have been better stories if not encumbered with the comicbook (one dimensional, over-the-top 'scary') bogeyman villains and the ridiculous set ups inherited from previous novels in the arc.

Onslaught was a pleasant change from Vector Prime, but in retrospect seems a weak story whose finer plot points were abandoned.

Conquest was a nice little story as long as one was not expecting a complex story with more than one main protagonist and as long as one enjoys reading about a 16 year old being the only one with the hutzpah to get up and do what needs to be done.


JE: a very strange book whose plot was all over the place. Hard to pin point a part I like...thinking.... Wurth Skidder finally did something befitting a Jedi....thinking some more...It was good to see Isolder again......still thinking.....At least the gore of Ruin wasn't splashed all over every page.
That's about it for this book.

Vector Prime: The Solo kids were believable teens.
Running the Belt was fun (until Han and Chewie were portrayed as a couple of golden agers caught on the Dan Ryan at rush hour)
Leia was good.
The bio tech of the bad guys was an interesting aspect (that seems to have gotten out of hand)

Ruin: Very hard to find much to like in this one, the blood and gore pretty much negated any good parts.
There were a couple of interesting parts seem to have been left by the wayside.
The pollen that the Vong armor is allergic to has not been heard from since.
Nor has the Imperial Remanent.


There, see, I can find something I like in the NJO, just not enough to make me want to invest more money in it.

 

EDIT: Whoops, I misread your post and thought you said my "first post". Now I'll go read my other posts and find out my rudeness factor and if I deem it necessary apologize.

My comments about NJO in relation to Bantam are because I've found that the majority of anti-NJO sentiment seems to be "It's not as good as Bantam, which was great. Bring back Bantam" type of stuff.

"Mastadge, I am not going to reply to the rest of your posts because you were being deliberately rude and disrespectful."

I just reread my first post, and I wasn't intending to be rude and disrepectful, nor do I think I was unduly...any more so than your original post. Each of your queries about the NJO I answered honestly. I acknowledge that pointing out your spelling mistakes was petty, especially considering that I too had a few, and I apologize, but as I said, everything else in that post was honest reply.

The situation on Yavin -- they had Yavin "cloaked" if you will -- it was hidden and very hard to find, and the students were hidden on it. If they had started evacuating, the ships would have become primary targets; however, they weren't expecting the planet to be found. And if they had moved the Jedi youths to another world, especially after Lah's ultimatum, they would most likely just have been immediately taken anyway.

And Karrde's interpretation of data was not "dumbing down." Maybe the author himself misinterpreted Karrde's character.

And speaking of rude and disrepectful, let me call this post and my reply up:

"Tired of being flamed by NJO bootlickers who think the NJO is the greatest thing since sliced bread?"
Just as tired as said bootlickers are of being flamed by people who seem to think that NJO is the worst thing to hit the street since indoor plumbing was invented.

So, I, because I like and support NJO, am a bootlicker? That's not rude or disrepectful at all...

The only point, other than the one I already apologized for, where I even approach outright rudeness is this:

"Even if you liked some of the NJO, feel free to join. Personally, I really enjoyed Balance Point, Onslaught and Hero's Trial."
So, you really enjoyed half of the NJO (before Conquest anyway), and yet you're boycotting it before it's even half over. Logical.

If I'm missing examples of my rudeness, feel free to point them out.

 

So, I just re-read all my posts and I seem to be missing this intentional disrespect. I replied honestly, point for point.

 

Look again. I apologized for the bootlicker comment. Although if you are honest with yourself, you will be able to find exactly that type around the forum. Not that you are one of them.

Deliberate rudeness. Yes, pointing out my spelling mistakes was rude, petty. Apology accepted.

Other rudeness: >>Speaking of which, I'm also kind of tired of seeign certain NJO authors mercilessly bashed.<< The implication here, of course, is that people here are guilty of bashing RAS.

>>That's the feeling I'm getting right now. I fully appreciate the fact that you may not like NJO, but I don't understand this constant need to start these stupid flame wars about it.<<

Stupid flame wars. No one here started a flame war. You are the one who started criticizing the critics, ergo, starting another flame war you say you detest.

>>And you obviously are just as intolerant of people who don't understand your POV.<<

Ah, mind reader are we? Because I feel I am being condescended to, you think that means I am intolerant? Have you ever been told by someone that you just don't understand, and that your criticism or opinion is unfounded or erroroneous?

Implying that I am illogical for boycotting the NJO when I said I enjoyed 3 of the books. As I said today, none of them would make my top 10 books. All of them are mediocre. The three I mentioned are the best of a mediocre lot. All the books suffer from the excess baggage of the NJO. Onslaught has not aged well for me. Neither has Hero's Trial. They were not followed up very well, and as such, are diminished.

What say we just bury the hatchet, accept each others apologies, and move on to a discussion of the issues?

 

I remember DL having commented that the more the NJO moves along, the better and better VP will look. As far as my personal experience goes, he is absolutely correct.

As Dew said, the Solo brats were believable teens in VP. I agree with this statement toally. Unfortunately, since VP they have turned into intellectual and Jedi uberkinden. RAS had the kids where they belong, in the background. Since VP, the opposite has been true: these cursed, perfect, annoying characters have been in our faces from Onslaught to Conquest. Luke, Mara, Leia, Han and Lando were center-stage in VP, yet in the next book they are peripheral characters as the Solo spawn suddenly leap from being background characters in one book to be eclipsing their aunt, uncle and parents in terms of page time and adventures.

In VP Luke was in the thick of the action. Since VP, he's turned into a wishy-washy, indecicive wimp whose page time is dwindling down to making cameo appearances to spew philosophy or to 'debate' Kyp. Then Luke vanishes from the scene, since he has no real purpose in these books except to impregnate his wife.

While her brother is only called upon to spew philosophy, Leia is only used to ferry refugees around. In Conquest why couldn't we have just gotten a few pages showing what Han, Leia and 3PO were up to? Sorry, can't have these "old, over-the-hill" characters taking limited page time away from Jacen, Jaina and Anakin. Those of us who are actually interested in reading about these characters being an integral part of the action have been poorly served.

The NJO has reintroduced Kyp Durron and introduced several interesting new characters. Unfortunately, several of the new characters were selected to serve the token death role to be filled in each NJO novel. The only character deaths that I can recall off the top of my head are Wurth and Chewie. Chewie for the ridiculous manner in which he died and Wurth for the fact that he died just when his character was being developed. If the new characters don't die, they disappear from the written page and we continue to be treated to Solo vermin ad nauseum. So much for seeing this 'New Jedi Order' in action. So far this new order consists of three Jedi, all who have the same last name: Solo. No other Jedi matter. [inset first name] Solo does this, does that, kills X number of Vong; saves the galaxy. While Luke, Han, Leia, Kyp, Mara, etc. just revolve around the galaxy-saving Solo brats, lucky if they can get a few pages in or get scene or two.

Only in the NJO will you be able to read novels were Luke, Han and Leia are only featured or merely mentioned in passing .

I never thought that I would ever stop reading SW literature, but the NJO is just pushing me in that direction more and more. Such a tragedy.

I also enjoyed several of the books: Ruin, Jedi Eclipse and Balance Point. But enjoying books in an ongoing storyline and enjoying the storyline in its entirity--including the direction that its going in--are two entirely separate issues.

 

I'm sorry. I got pissed, I scanned through and just saw bashing.

 

Thank god! It's about time we got this. I never come to this section but I'm glad I did.

 

<<The situation on Yavin -- they had Yavin "cloaked" if you will -- it was hidden and very hard to find, and the students were>>


Luke told Talon in HT that the Fallanassi illusion was temorary because the Jedi maintaing the illusion were leaving Yavin4 on missions. Luke should have had back-up plans in effect for when the illusion did fail. And he can't use the excuse of not expecting the Vong/PB to show up so soon - you don't wait until they're on your doorstep before you think of a plan for escape. This is just common sense.
Unfortunately, comnon sense is something that Luke seems to be lacking in this series. How else could he explain sending two teen-age boys to Centerpoint Station alone?

 

"Comic books...Kid stuff"

Have you read Jedi vs Sith? In the first issue, in the first panels, 3 kids are killed in front of their father, and then the father is killed. And the killer dosn't even say a word. He just walks in, and picks them off.

"Gamer stuff...kid stuff"

LOL, I have noticed tons of humor in the mag that I think only more mature people would get. Yes, it is a magazine about games, but the RPG game is complicated. I don't even really understand it. And the mag is also full of just information on things, like a sorce guide. Something some kids wouldn't be intrested in.