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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

The NJO Critics Club

Discussion in 'EU Community' started by Jades Fire, May 25, 2001.

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  1. Jades Fire

    Jades Fire Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 1998
    Anakin,

    I have no illusions that I can affect the outcome of the NJO. You'll notice I said offer better stories, or at least more post-ROTJ variety. The NJO is probably set in stone right now. What I, and others, seek to do, is offer constructive ideas on how to better the NJO so that we can go from not liking it to enjoying it, if that is possible.

    I am sorry you think that we are bashing or are accusatory. I am also sorry if you feel my boycott is too extreme. My boycott seeks to let Del Rey know that I am not satisfied by the only means that matters. If you write a letter politely expressing dissatisfaction, all you'll get is a note saying "maybe the next books will have something to offer you." The hope is that you will continue to read even though you aren't satisfied. Sorry, but that is not the way things work. If you don't like something you don't continue buy it and hope it gets better. You find something better.

    Essentially, I did this during the Bantam run. I stopped buying because the books weren't pleasing to me. I didn't even bother to buy Specter of the Past until it had come out in paperback. After this turn around, I also discovered the X-Wing books, which I had blown off because of my dissatisfaction. However, that was in the days before TFN or other Internet sites that made it so easy to make my opinion known to the people in charge so quickly.
     
  2. Mastadge

    Mastadge Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 4, 1999
    To respond to Aleja's thread -- yes, the pro-NJOers are arguing, but no more so than the anti-NJOers. A few people at the beginning came in and started a little bashing, but then either apologized or left. This is the "critics club," not the "haters club." I have responded to what I felt to be unfairly harsh criticism, and I have offered my own criticisms.

    "Can't some people read the title of this thread? Why are some people insisting on forcing their way into one area that has been set aside for thoughtful criticism of the NJO? And then do nothing but attack those who are simply using the thread in the manner in which it was conceived?"

    I read the title, and the inflammatory first post. I didn't force my way in -- I responded to criticism.

    "Do they go into the Mara Jade thread and attack Mara? The Callista thread and attack Callista? The Han and Leia thread and attack Han and Leia? I bet not. And has one NJO Critic gone into the NJO Fans' thread? No. And this community supports an active Haters' Club, so don't tell me that only positive clubs can exist."

    Yeah, but there's a big difference between a fan club, a hater's club, and a critics club. Fans are fans, haters are haters. Critics can go either way -- they criticize. Positive or negative.

    "So why are these people here? Are they that bored that they have to pick fights? Or is it that the quality of conversation in Lit has so deteriorated that they are really here because they so appreciate the wit and intelligence of Dewlanna, Jade's Fire, Bror and others and they have to bask in the NJO Critics' presence no matter how?"

    Again -- critic doesn't mean detractor or hater. I'm a critic, it's just so happened that in most of this thread I've been defending the NJO. But yes, if you must know, I am kind of bored in lit. And I haven't picked fights. That whole first post was essentially a fight-pick.

    "And don't give me the malarky about "They're critics, too." Bulldren. They're here to pick the same old fights, not to discuss merits and faults. They didn't offer any original thoughts on the books until called on their behavior, and then some promptly went back to their old patterns. Well, I'm calling them on their behavior again. "

    I've avoided "the same old fights," and not taken part in them, just to avoid this kind of accusatory stuff. I didn't take place in criticising the books in a negative manner until such was specifically requested -- that had nothing to do with behavorial calls. I've been defending the NJO by replying to negative criticisms, that in my opinion are too harsh.

    "Those of you offering reasoned criticism, be it why you like the NJO or dislike the NJO, this isn't aimed at you. This is aimed at those who apparently have no raison d'etre except to pick fights. "

    Who is it then? With little exception, it's been mine and AniSS' viewpoints against everyone else's...

    "They are merely here merely to be argumentative - criticism, in any definition of the word, is nowhere to be found...That suggests that they are not here to converse and contribute, but only to fight and discredit. "

    I'm not here merely to be argumentative. I'm here to say honestly what I think about the NJO. Yes, that does result in argument, since my viewpoint is so obviously different from other peoples. BUt the defenders of the NJO are no more guilty of this than its attackers. And yes, the best way to prove your own viewpoint is to discredit the other person's.
     
  3. Anakin SkySolo

    Anakin SkySolo Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 1999
    In my last post, I intended to offer only constructive advice to those who seek change in the NJO. I didn't believe that I was condescending or being pedantic, but perhaps, regretfully, I came off that way. Certainly I was not seeking to engage in personal fights with anyone.

    I should have stated that my advice concerned personal correspondence with the editors at Del Rey and LucasFilm, not to posts in the NJO Critics Club.

    Perhaps I erred in believing that many of the people posting in this thread are actually trying to push for change, rather than simply expressing their dissatisfaction.

    Certainly I got that impression from several posts, particularly Jades Fire's:

    Sales of "Star by Star" really need to fall off from the sales of "Balance Point" to have an impact. If the sales numbers don't fall off by a large amount, it will just embolden Del Rey to finish off the last 2 years exactly as planned. Only if sales numbers drop much further than expected will there be a chance that Del Rey might consider listening to the critics, and offer better stories, or at least more post-ROTJ variety.

    Actively campaigning for boycott seemed a pretty good indication of intent. In fact, I agree that a boycott is a good tactic to use if you really want to see a change. In this case, as I said before, I think the potential impact is limited to the last year of the NJO by the time constraint.

    I believe that a boycott would need to be accompanied by a letter-writing campaign, and in writing those letters, you would have more success if you tried to engage the editors at LucasFilm and agitated for changes that could actually happen, rather than something that changes the main direction of the NJO. I'm also dubious that putting the editors on the defensive (for example, by saying that the writing, the characters or the stories are "dumbed down" ) will have much effect.

    But if you are only offering wish lists, then please ignore my suggestions, because if that's your intent, then my suggestions are not relevant. Even if you are agitating for change, please keep in mind that I am only offering an opinion, one that I hope is constructive, and one I didn't intend to have any bearing on the posts here. That is all.

    EDIT: I only saw Jades Fire's post after I wrote the stuff above.

    Anyway:

    I have no illusions that I can affect the outcome of the NJO. You'll notice I said offer better stories, or at least more post-ROTJ variety. The NJO is probably set in stone right now. What I, and others, seek to do, is offer constructive ideas on how to better the NJO so that we can go from not liking it to enjoying it, if that is possible.

    That's more or less what I thought. My reference to changing the main plot elements or themes concerned comments more akin to GAW's suggestion that DR/LFL get rid of the Vong. IMO, that's probably going further than DR/LFL would be willing to go.

    I am sorry you think that we are bashing or are accusatory. I am also sorry if you feel my boycott is too extreme.

    No need to apologize. I was using "bash" in Bror's definition. See above about "accusatory." However, if you want to write strong letters, then by all means do so with my full encouragement.

    As you can see above, I don't think that your boycott is too extreme. Not at all.
     
  4. aleja

    aleja Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 23, 1999
    "And yes, the best way to prove your own viewpoint is to discredit the other person's."

    Thanks for proving my point about why IMO certain people are here - in other words, not to offer their own, individual and unique criticism, but merely to pick on others' opinions. Perhaps that isn't their intent, but it is the perception. I hesitated before posting that message, but now I'm glad I did - certainly the "TIS NOT JUST 'CAUSE I SAY SO!!!" retorts have died down.

    MariahJade - I don't think anything will make me come back to the NJO. The gap between my early expectations and the actual execution is just too high to overcome. Perhaps if the NJO hadn't followed the Thrawn Duology and the wrap-up of the X-Wing books I would be more inclined to see it as the frivolous, good for an afternoon's reading but certainly not worth a moment's thought after the covers are closed, Sci-Fi (in the pejorative sense of the word)/B-grade fantasy pulp that it is. If it followed, say, the Black Fleet Crisis (which was when I stopped buying the Bantam books - my reading experience parallel's Jade's Fire's), then I'm sure I would be less hard on it. But it didn't. And therefore by comparison the NJO is nothing but a horribly missed opportunity that only seems to dig itself in deeper with each book.

    Good will is an intangible asset that appears on a company's balance sheets. It is included because companies' valuation is dependent upon the trust and reputation they have among their consumers and in their community. Once lost, it is a very hard thing to regain. DelRey and LFL have lost my good will.

    I would, however, like to start seeing smart heroes and heroines again - people who actually THINK, rather than have sudden, non-motivated "Eureka!" moments ala Anakin's sudden morph into an astrophysicist in VP, or who blurt out carefully guarded secrets ala Mara in Conquest. I also wouldn't seeing a smart villian again, someone whom you can't help feeling a little bit of admiration for ala Thrawn. In fact, I wouldn't mind seeing some intelligence, period. I would like to be surprised by the plot twists, not have everything telegraphed from miles away. I would like to NOT be able to predict the ending, or at least feel that it could have easily gone the other way and I would have bought it.

    Moving on - Here's a quote from Lois McMaster Bujold, the author of The Vorkosigan Saga, and winner of the Hugo Award for "Barrayar." This is taken from the afterword of "Cordelia's Honor," an edition that combines her books "Shards of Honor" and "Barrayar." I found her comments to be very interesting, in light of the NJO and what it means to truly to be a series:

    "As a longtime series reader, and now writer, I'm very aware of the pitfalls of what I have come to believe is another story form, as distinct from the novel as the novel is from the short story. A proper series in this sense is neither an extension of the novel (as in the multi-volume single story) nor a replication (as when essentially the same story is told over and over, cookie-cutter fashion), but another animal altogether, with its own internal demands. In addition, one must assume that readers, as I did when reading my own favorite series, will encounter the books in utterly random order. Therefore each series novel must simultaneously be a complete tale in itself, and uphold its unique place in the growing structure; it must be two books at once. The understructure must be global and timeless as well as linear and sequential. The series landscape must satisfy its readers regardless of what direction they chance to travel through it, or how often."

    Discuss, if you would like :)
     
  5. Mastadge

    Mastadge Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 4, 1999
    I don't know anything about Elaine Cunningham, WJW, or those australian guys, but I recommend, if you don't like NJO now, wait and try either Allston's first NJO book, or Matthew Woodring Stover's. Allston, while not the greatest writer ever, was an excellent contributor to Bantam's SW mythos -- I'm just concerned about how he'll handle characters not of his own devising. But I've been extremely impressed with Stover's recent books -- Heroes Die and Blade of Tyshalle, and I think he'll do great things for NJO.

    I don't really think that that quote is really applicable entirely to NJO, or necessarily to any series. Certainly I think NJO could take some tips -- more intercontinuity and interweaving of plots would be nice, but the NJO isn't a series in itself, but an extension of a huge series. It's one thing when a single author is working on a series, and another when it's a huge multi-author series. Also, and I'm unfamiliar with Bujold's work, some series simply can't do that. When the ending and direction of a series is known, then each book can't be its own self-sufficient unit, it has to be part of the whole. That doesn't necessarily make it a multivolume novel, but...oh, hell, I lost my train of thought. Didn't get much sleep this past week; I just graduated from high school.

    Anyway, I think that the New Jedi order format is a logical follow-up to Bantam's, all things considered.
     
  6. ChildOfWinds

    ChildOfWinds Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 7, 2001
    Grand Admiral W: I thought of a few additions to your list of Luke Skywalker's pre-NJO accomplishments:

    --saved most of the galaxy from entechment by the Ssi-Ruuk

    --Saved many from the Death seed by helping to destroy Ashgad's ship which would have spread the disease

    --rescued Karrde from Imperial detention

    --found and rescued Mara in her ejection seat among the debris of battle in DFR.

    --helped thwart Thrawn's campaign to destroy the NR through cloned warriors

    --found a way to get all of the different species safely off the EYE OF PALPATINE.

    --rescued Han from Gethzerion; defeated the Nightsisters of Dathomir; and shorted out the nightcloak.

    --together with Mara Jade, Luke discovered the secrets of the Fortress on Nirauran and the dangers in the unknown regions, and brought back an overview of it. This should have been important information for the NR , except that this whole amazing discovery was made irrelevant in the NJO. Also, by exploring the Fortress and plugging Artoo into the computers there, he and Mara returned with Thrawn's version of the Caamas Document, something the entire galaxy was searching for.

    --Defeated the Sentinel droids with Mara.

    --was the "hero of a hundred battles" as it says in AMBUSH AT CORELLIA (...and THIS is the guy who refuses to go on the offensive in the NJO???!)

    GRAND ADMIRAL WETTENGEL wrote:
    "I certainly wouldn't be expecting all the changes I outlined to take place overnight. The only one that I could see that happening for would be the return of the uberkinden to the background and the return of Luke, Leia, Han, Mara, Kyp and all the other characters returning to their proper roles of prominence."

    This would be a good, positive first step. This improvement would encourage me to at least give the book that follows STAR BY STAR a chance.

    AnakinSkySolo: "Moreover, IF they did so, they'd be attacked for having an ending that did not jibe with the rest of the series."

    As much as I would love to see the Vong disappear as soon as possible, I'm afraid we're stuck with them for the duration of the NJO series. Therefore, I would hope that the end of the NJO series would involve an end to the conflict between the inhabitants of the GFFA and the Yuuzhan Vong invaders. I would expect this to happen whether Del Rey/LFL continues this arc as they've planned it or whether they would incorporate my suggestions about what I think would improve the future books. How could using those suggestions cause the ending to not "jibe with the rest of the series"?

    AnakinSS:
    "Not only would you guys be criticizing Del Rey/LFL for such an incoherent storyline,"

    While I don't think there's an incoherent storyline in the NJO at the moment, (It's too simplistic for that!) I do think it's already very disjointed. As far as I'm concerned, bringing the original characters back into prominence; putting the teenagers into the background for a long while; using accurate characterizations; adding more intricate plotlines; toning down the violence; making the Jedi more respected and heroic; insisting on more consistency; etc., could only improve the series.

     
  7. CountJared

    CountJared Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 10, 2000
    aleja-
    Somebody else who reads Lois McMaster Bujold! Yeah! Without a doubt one of my favorite authors.
     
  8. Jades Fire

    Jades Fire Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 1998
    How to salvage the NJO.

    1) Better balance of adults and Solo kids. Balance Point, and as much as it might pain me to admit it, Vector Prime, are better examples of adults and kids with more balanced action. Though I think this is by design, that the hardcovers must have all (or most) of the protagonists in the book.

    2) Focus less on the Solo kids. The only book that didn't have the Solo kids in an important role was "Hero's Trial." The is the New Jedi Order, not The Next Generation.

    3) Wrap up plot ideas sooner. How long have we seen Luke and Kyp at odds? It seems like every other book has had Luke and Kyp at odds, with Kyp advocating more action and Luke counciling restraint. A rift in the Jedi seems like such a serious topic, but it hasn't even been afforded much page space, nothing has been resolved, or even attempted to be resolved. It has been a long time since we've heard serious talk of a new Jedi Council.

    4) Banish WimpyLuke forever. Get rid of the indecisive clone who is afraid to take action. He's too young to be turned into a Ben Kenobi dispending platitudes or nice speeches but not taking any action. He's not over the hill yet. Qui-Gon Jinn was 60 in TPM. Sixty! Luke's got at least another 15 years.

    5) No more death by decree.

    6) Bring Lando back into the picture, and not just to kill him off because he's become a third wheel. We need heroes who aren't a Skywalker or Solo.

    7) More focus on character development. Ikrit's or Wurth Skidder's or Daeshara'cor's deaths would have been more impactful if their characters had a bit more character development.

    8) Less focus on the violence and gruesomeness. Balance Point had it right. Conquest almost had it right, but torturing a 14-year old wasn't a good idea.

    9) Give the authors more room. If a book isn't quite complete, give it a couple more months. As much as people will complain, many would rather read a more complete book than an incomplete book. (This might be most troublesome from a logistics standpoint.)

    10) Give us more story. Longer books. Ruin, Jedi Eclipse, Balance Point, and Conquest all could have benefitted from a longer story or more room to develop or expand plot points. Is someone afraid that a book of 400 pages will be less accessible than a book of 300 pages? Or does a book of 300 pages have a larger profit margin than a book of 400 pages?

    Let's face it folks. The old heroes are not going to be important anymore. It is written in stone. Luke said the solution would not come from one of them, but from somewhere else.
     
  9. aleja

    aleja Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 23, 1999
    CountJared - Yay! You like Bujold, too!

    I just discovered Bujold, after repeated recommendations from different sources. Within 20 pages of "Cordelia's Honor" I knew I had found something really good :) I'm excited because I am only on "The Warrior's Apprentice" which means I still have lots of good reading to look forward to.

    I think Bujold's comment is highly applicable as the NJO is nothing but a stream of cookie cutter plots, spit out of the DelRey/LFL marketing machine. In other words, not a true series that takes full advantage of that particular writing form. It could have been - it doesn't have one author, but it does have one editor and one licensing house to oversee it - but it fails very much short of the mark

    In truth, there is very little to distinguish the NJO from the current trend in YA series publishing such as Sweet Valley High. The NJO allows its authors to use their own name and not the name of the series originator, and the NJO gets to be much more graphic in its despiction of violence (but oddly, the description of sex is about on the same level). Like the teen series, time advances; but really, each book follows the exact plot with only the names being changed. It's just that instead of featuring a plot where Timmy has a crush on Betsy but Betsy thinks he likes Debby and outrageous! complications ensue, we have the Vong threaten a planet, our heroes come up with a plan, and it ends with a pyrrhic victory 'cause after all, our Heroes can't be total losers even though they've lost all the intelligence they once possessed.

    Any pretensions that the NJO is more than a glorified YA series in sheep's clothing are just that, pretensions. It certainly is not a series in the Bujold sense of the word.

    As for "wait for Allston's books" - ever hear of a little story called "The Boy Who Cried Wolf?" I was told to wait for "Balance Point." And I liked "Balance Point" - for an NJO book. As a plain book it is vastly hindered by being part of the series, and having to include NJO plot points. Nor did the publication of "Balance Point" stop "Conquest" from being, IMO, a pile of dren. And I LIKE J. Gregory Keyes's "Age of Unreason" books. It's enough to make one wonder what dropping the "J." and "ory" had behind it... I'm sure Aaron Allston's books will be highly readable, and for once some humor might be allowed to surface in an NJO book. But that doesn't stop the series from being a sad disappointment. Allston is still going to have work with the NJO series outline, and so I am far from expecting another "Starfighters of Adumar" - which would be still be a very good read even if you had no interest in the SW universe.

    But don't despair. It will probably be read. I'm sure someone I know will buy a discounted copy at WalMart and pass it around so several of us can read it without having to give DelRey more money.
     
  10. ChildOfWinds

    ChildOfWinds Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 7, 2001
    Jade's Fire, it seems as though you and I want to see pretty much the same things in the NJO. I hope we can get at least some of what we want in the next two books. I'm now seriously considering trying to get at least STAR BY STAR at the library (I doubt that I could find REBIRTH there.) to send a message to Del Rey/LFL. The loss of one book won't mean much to them, but at least it might give me a little satisfaction. If I find that I actually LIKE the book, I can always purchase it later.

    I may also send my list of what I'd like to see changed to Del Rey. If enough people express their displeasure directly to the publisher while giving examples of what we'd like to see in place of what we've been getting, maybe they will rethink some of their future books. I have heard that not everything is etched in 'durocrete', that it's supposedly an 'evolving' story. Maybe we can get some things changed. If not, again, at least I'll have the personal satisfaction of letting them know how I feel, and of knowing that I did all I could to affect a change.

    Jade's Fire wrote:
    "Let's face it folks. The old heroes are not going to be important anymore. It is written in stone. Luke said the solution would not come from one of them, but from somewhere else."

    I agree that this is probably the current plan. However, since 'the future is always in motion' maybe we can still affect this outcome too. After all, silly imposter/clone Skywalker was doing nothing at all because he was afraid to change the one future he happened to see that involved "someone new". Perhaps if he FINALLY decides to take some action, the 'old heroes' will be involved in the final victory too, changing that one POSSIBLE future Luke "predicted".

    I would certainly hope that the final victory would be an ensemble effort! In ROTJ, Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie, Lando, Wedge, the Ewoks, the Rebel fleet, even the droids and Darth Vader collaborated in the Alliance victory. I would be very disappointed and even angry if one superstar teenager (or even three or four) was solely responsible for the New Republic's victory over the Yuuzhan Vong!



     
  11. ChildOfWinds

    ChildOfWinds Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 7, 2001
    Aleja wrote:"Therefore each series novel must simultaneously be a complete tale in itself, and uphold its unique place in the growing structure;"

    This is pretty much what I was trying to say, Aleja. Readers need some satisfactory resolution.  As I said before, except for TESB, the SW films were complete stories in themselves. While each individual book in Bantam's trilogies was not always complete in and of itself, the trilogies or duologies were, which was acceptable to me. So far in the NJO universe, that doesn't seem to be the case. We still have many 'plot threads' unresolved after seven books, like the philosophical differences between Luke and Kyp and whether or not there should be a Jedi Council. Worse, there's been no progress at all about either. Other minor threads like Mara's illness and what's going on with the traitor in the Senate and with the spores that the Vong are allergic to remain unresolved too.

    The following is what I had planned to write in my first post to the NJO Critics club but wanted to respond to some posts of other members first. I was thinking on my way to work one morning about exactly why Vector Prime was such a huge disappointment for me. (In retrospect, after reading six other books, I now consider VP to be the best NJO book so far, as the later books badly damaged the characters and drastically destroyed the galaxy I have enjoyed for so long.) Before I read it, I was very excited about the upcoming NJO series, but VP was a very bad surprise. Here are some of my reasons:

    1. I hated the Vong immediately. I found them creepy, digusting, violent, nasty, and totally lacking in redeeming qualities.

    2. The novel didn't 'feel' like SW. It was dark, cold, depressing.

    3.The Unknown Regions and their mysteries that I was hoping to 'explore' with the SW characters were totally forgotten, even though in VOTF Luke told Mara, "That's our future, out there in the Unknown Regions. Our hopes and dreams; promises and opportunities; dangers and enemies."

    4. The story started SIX YEARS after VOTF. I was expecting it to begin a year or two, three at the most, with Luke, Leia, and Mara still in their thirties and Han in his forties. (The only reason I can think of for waiting so long was because Del Rey/LFL decided to put the original film characters 'to pasture' and needed six years to make it at even slightly plausible that Jaina, Jacen, and Anakin could be the primary heroes.)

    5. Instead of being respected by the galaxy as Ben Kenobi once said they had been for over a thousand generations, the Jedi in VP were anathema: denigrated, ridiculed, and despised by many in the galaxy. Niuk Niuv in Onslaught even calls the Jedi a threat to the New Republic. What happened to the Jedi as heroes?

    6. There was a dangerous philosophical rift in the Jedi order itself.

    7. I was looking forward to seeing Luke and Mara for the first time as husband and wife and reading about the growth of their relationship, yet the few times when they were together, they acted more like brother and sister than husband and wife. These two had lost ten years of a possible relationship in the Bantam books. I would have thought they would be especially close now that they were finally together.

    8. Mara had a terrible disease. (Even worse, she refused to talk to even her husband about it!) I thought this Mara had regressed from the growth her character had made in SOTP/VOTF.

    9. Luke and Mara didn't have the children I was expecting to meet. Why wait six years if, as Mara said in VP, she and Luke wanted children more than anything?

    10. The Jedi Knights didn't use the Force much. I was especially appalled when Luke Skywalker, a Jedi for over 20 years and a Master for many of them, as well as a person who had a very special Force-bond with his wife, couldn't sense that Mara was under attack when he was in the same building with her. Yet, when he was not yet a full Jedi, he was able to sense his father across space from ship to ship and when he was on the opposite side of a world.

    11. Leia, who was worki
     
  12. Anakin SkySolo

    Anakin SkySolo Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 1999
    ChildOfWinds--

    In response to the portions of one of your posts directed at me:

    As much as I would love to see the Vong disappear as soon as possible, I'm afraid we're stuck with them for the duration of the NJO series. Therefore, I would hope that the end of the NJO series would involve an end to the conflict between the inhabitants of the GFFA and the Yuuzhan Vong invaders.

    That's how I'd expect the NJO to end myself. However, one of GAW's suggestions was to get rid of the YV early--before the end of the series, if I understood him correctly:

    3. Get rid of the Vong. I'm sure the Empire could mass-produce a sufficient amount of biological weapons to do the job most adequetly.

    I think this suggestion would remove an essential plot element of the NJO.

    How could using those suggestions cause the ending to not "jibe with the rest of the series"?

    That depends on the suggestion.

    While I don't think there's an incoherent storyline in the NJO at the moment, (It's too simplistic for that!) I do think it's already very disjointed.

    Well, I don't know many Star Wars stories that are particularly complex in theme or plot. They are often compelling, but not necessarily complex. I disagree about the NJO being disjointed.

    As far as I'm concerned, bringing the original characters back into prominence...

    I disagree about their prominence. Still, I believe that this suggestion would "jibe with the rest of the series."

    "putting the teenagers into the background for a long while;"

    I don't think this suggestion would jibe with the rest of the series.

    If I were reading a novel in which a character who was established a major player for the first three-quarters of the book was suddenly retired to the background for the last quarter; a character who was set up to play a major role in the climax was suddenly pushed aside...I think I would feel a strong cognitive dissonance, as if the last quarter of the book did not match the first three-quarters.

    In short, I think that the teens are being set up the teens for a major role in the climax of the story arc, and that depriving them of that role would seriously weaken the story arc at this stage.

    "...using accurate characterizations; adding more intricate plotlines; toning down the violence; making the Jedi more respected and heroic; insisting on more consistency; etc., could only improve the series."

    Though I disagree with much of your diagnosis (e.g., "accurate characterizations"), adapting these suggestions would "jibe with the rest of the series." I think that "making the Jedi more respected" is something that will happen as the story arc evolves in any event.
     
  13. Bror Jace

    Bror Jace Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 1999
    I had started working on replies to earlier posts ... but what?s the point? If someone doesn?t want to see the obvious and would rather engage in pointless, time-consuming semantic games, a debate is bound to accomplish absolutely nothing. Besides, the thread has shifted, and in a much more interesting direction ...

    AniSS, If LFL and DelRey wanted to end the NJO as quickly as possible, they?d find a means to do it. Plans change ... like they did with Knightfall. Maybe using Star by Star to wrap things up won?t work anymore but they could do it soon thereafter. Where there?s a will, there?s a way.

    I had to laugh at the rest of your post, though. I really liked the parts about accepting things won?t change and then suggesting we talk to DelRey diplomatically ... stressing the positives. [face_laugh] Besides the fact that those of us who loathe the NJO story find very few aspects about it positive, the correspondence that some of us have had with DelRey has resulted in (initially) comments about following continuity being too difficult and (more recently) advice that we ?hang in there and keep reading, things will get better.? Seeing that you really liked Rogue Planet and can?t see that Conquest was obviously written to a younger, less mature audience, let me translate that for you:

    [begin corporate speak translation] ?You ungrateful nerds and idiots, don?t you see that you should just be thankful that we?re producing Star Wars books at all? You aren?t happy with what we?re pumping out? Tough! Buy ?em anyway! You?ll like what we TELL you to like ... and don?t even THINK about not shelling out the cash for future projects. We have kids in college and stock portfolios that took a serious hit in the last couple years!"[end corporate speak translation]

    As Mastadge previously pointed out, we live in a capitalist country and if consumers are displeased with what they are getting for their money, they should:

    1) Stop buying it. (In other words, a boycott)

    2) Complain and try to have it changed to better suit their wants and needs.

    Those are the basics. Coke brought back ?Classic Coke,? Pepsi got rid of ?Pepsi Clear? and Ford stopped producing the Edsel after it was left on dealership lots. You don?t follow failure with more of the same.

    A better point is that the powers-that-be should never have let it get this far. Don?t these people have any marketing sense whatsoever? Aren?t they looking over internet forums and looking for trends, attitudes, etc ...? Didn?t they get a sense that the change divided fans and after the first year, more and more fans (not just a handful of regulars) visited the forums claiming they didn?t like the new direction of the NJO books. You can?t call a creative decision that alienates a quarter to a third of the fans (customers) a success. And, I?ll say it again, the customer is always right!

    So, what?s fueling the NJO? It?s EGO, plain and simple! Executives don?t like to admit they?re wrong or have made a bad decision. So, they?ll often ride a sinking ship until the last possible moment. About 10 years ago I worked in the marketing department of a $500M telecommunications company and I saw it go under because the chuckleheads in charge refused to see the trends the rest of us knew were coming. They shook their heads at those of us who questioned their judgement and it wasn?t until we get in serious financial trouble, were bought out by a rival and they were fired did it finally hit them. What a bunch of idiots!

    In the case of Star Wars, the brand name is artificially keeping them afloat but the writing is on the wall and they better wake up before they ruin a successful franchise. Please re-read Aleja?s post on ?goodwill.?

    I know RAS disagrees with me about the bestseller lists but I?ve been watching them for a handful of years and the performance of Star Wars books has been awfully consistent. In the last couple years of Bantam?s reign, sales numbers were fairly flat. Switch to DelRey and add a new movie and some
     
  14. Anakin SkySolo

    Anakin SkySolo Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 1999
    Bror--

    Your assessment of the writing of the NJO books is your subjective opinion, nothing more. Calling your assessment "obvious" doesn't make it so. Moreover, I can't grasp your reasoning. As far as I can tell, you find many Bantam books just as "juvenile" as you find some NJO books, while you find the writing of some NJO books just as adult as many novels in the Bantam line.

    Not that I care to know more about your reasoning. I'm sure you've explained it as well as you can.

    With regard to my point about emphasizing the positive, I was talking about tone. I was simply suggesting that people attempt to engage editors by stressing what they'd like to see changed, rather than writing letters that puts them on the defensive.

    For example, I am rather doubtful that drawing psychological profiles of people you don't really know, in which you portray them as egotistical, arrogant, and foolish, will have the desired impact.

    I'll stick with RAS's knowledge of publishing industry, thanks.

    As for the sales figures on Balance Point: Yes, Bror, BP did have lower year-end sales figures than Vector Prime, according to the PW figures, though by how much isn't clear--VP was between 200K and 300K, while BP was between 150K and 200K. As RAS mentioned in the "Tired" thread, sales fall off after the first book in any series. Moreover, BP was on sale for two months, while VP was on sale for three months. That will also make a difference in the sales figures.
     
  15. Dewlanna Solo

    Dewlanna Solo Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 1999
    A couple quick points Ani
    You keep saying things like " I was simply suggesting that people attempt to engage editors by stressing what they'd like to see changed, rather than writing letters that puts them on the defensive."
    As I told Mastadge earlier in this thread, we've done that, to no avail. Polite letters have been written and the only ones that have gotten polite replies are the ones praising the NJO. The ones explaining what wasn't liked or what some readers would like to see done differently have been answered with the form letter "Sorry you didn't like the book, I'm sure you'll like the next one," or downright nastiness.

    About the "level" of the various books. In maturity of theme, reading level and enjoyability. NONE of the NJO books are as good as the best Bantam. Only a couple have been as "good" as the better Bantam, but most have been no better than the middle Bantam with a couple rivaling Crystal Star for the cellar position.

    I'm not impressed with DelRey's handling of the franchise. The only thing they've done better than Bantam is publishing the story in chronological order. In everything else they are no better than or worse than Bantam.
     
  16. Anakin SkySolo

    Anakin SkySolo Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 1999
    Whatever, Dewlanna.

    As I already replied to Jades Fire:

    ...if you want to write strong letters, then by all means do so with my full encouragement.
     
  17. CountJared

    CountJared Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 10, 2000
    Aniss, would you call yourself a NJO critic?

    Do any of these things apply to you?

    "Tired of the NJO?
    Tired of all the violence in the NJO?
    Tired of the two-dimensional, generic scifi-fantasy villians?
    Tired of the dumbing down of the adult heros?
    Tired of seeing the adult heros being pushed off-stage so the Solo kids can take center stage?
    Tired of being flamed by NJO bootlickers who think the NJO is the greatest thing since sliced bread?
    Tired of seeing good Bantam authors repeatedly flamed in an attempt to elevate the NJO authors?
    Tired of being condescended to and told you just don't understand?
    Don't think the NJO feels like Star Wars?"

    If not, why are you posting here?
     
  18. Dewlanna Solo

    Dewlanna Solo Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 1999

    I don't bother with letters any more.

    I put a lot of thought into polite letters that were dismissed with platitudes or replied to with rudeness. It was obvious that the people I was writing to didn't want to hear any dissension
    .
    I don't know if expressing my displeasure with the NJO in forums such as this will have any effect on future LFL projects or not. But on the off chance that someone is listening to the customers (fans), I've stated my opinions, backed them up with reasoned arguments, and supported others with similar viewpoints.
     
  19. eaglejedi

    eaglejedi Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 2, 2001
    I don't want to join this club, but I must agree that the NJO doesn't read like Star Wars, but then, there are other EU books that don't sound like Star Wars. The idea of the Yuuzhan Vong is interesting, but they went way too far with it; they took the basic idea from Truce at Bakura and went off the deep end with it.
    Also, as villains, the Vong compare to the Empire as Darth Maul seems to compare to Vader; barbarian weirdos who just fight and kill, compared to well-organized fascists with a philosophy, point of view, propaganda to back them up, or in Vader's case, a guy who actually speaks and has a rounded character, not a flat one.
     
  20. aleja

    aleja Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 23, 1999
    I see some are persisting in acting like uninvited guests at a party, insulting their hosts and crashing conversations. One hopes they don't act this way in real life...

    Here's a hint re: how to converse: If you disagree with someone's point, give us examples from the text of why you feel opposite (this assumes, of course, that one can properly interpret the text to begin with...) This leads to a discourse, an exchange of opinion. Just saying, "I disagree, I don't see it, I don't feel that way" is pointless and adds nothing to the conversation. While it is nice to watch the post count add up, IMO it is quality, not quantity that counts. And here's another hint: We know that some people disagree, and will always disagree. Your opinion is noted. Please either add something new to the conversation, or move on.

    I find Bror's reasoning to be quite easy to understand, but perhaps his straightforward semantics and lack of language twisting makes it difficult reading for others. For the record re: bestsellers numbers, it is not a case of believing Bror vs R.A. Salvatore (who admitted on this board in one of his posts to me that he neither reads Publishers Weekly nor belongs to peer groups such as SFFA) - it is merely a case of observing a trend. And the trend is that SW novels are failing to reach their previous numbers on the bestseller charts. Note that in this particular discussion, no mention was made about the numbers being actually sold. It is merely an observation of a trend, and as such valid.

    Not to start the bestseller debate all over again, which was all smoke and mirrors full of sound and fury signifying nothing - but here is the first sentence DelRey uses to describe their company: "Del Rey Books began as an imprint of Ballantine Books in 1977 with the bestselling The Sword of Shannara by Terry Brooks (which was the first novel to hit the New York Times trade bestseller list)." URL: http://bantam.com/delrey/

    But, of course, the New York Times bestseller list means nothing (Please, can we have a rolling eyes icon?)

    And of course books in a series fall off after the first one - when the first book kills interest in reading further. But I bet this is something J.K. Rowlings hasn't dealt with yet. If what I read was correct, the fourth Harry Potter book's first weeks of sales were far greater than the first book's first weeks of sales...of course the first book has sold more, but then it has been on sale longer.

     
  21. MariahJade2

    MariahJade2 Former Fan Fiction Archive Editor star 5 VIP

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2001
    I had a long week so I don't have time tonight to respond to what I would like. I hope to get to it another day. I do want to say that just from my personal observation, it seems to me that the books are no longer staying in the top 10 as long as they used to, and they seem to be in a lower position than they used to be. I usually check the best seller list in the sunday paper and I from what I remember, the Bantam books did better. I don't have numbers nor do I really care to, as Aleja said it is merely a trend that I took note of.

    About the writing letters. I have to agree with Dewlanna, it may not do much good, though there may be a bit of hope.
    I wrote some letters myself and I got a polite reply which basically justified their positions and said they hoped I will give Conquest a try. Well I did and you all know how I felt about it.

    They did respond to my complaint about the Rebirth book cover, perhaps because so many others wrote and complained as well. I was assured that they did change the Awful depiction of Luke a bit so he is not quite as ugly looking. Now if only they would consider some of the substantive changes that have been suggested here. I don't hold out much hope of that happening though.

    I do have a question. Were the Vong, solely the creation of RAS, or was this an enemy created by commitee? At least if we had learned more about them, in subsequent books I might be able to feel less negative, but we still don't have a good feel for them, their motives, their society, or why they even left their galaxy. The Shamed ones don't count because they are not the ones attacking. We are right, and the gods demand pain, and I hate machines isn't enough.
     
  22. CountJared

    CountJared Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 10, 2000
    I'm reasonably certain that it was created by a commitee. I understand that the Vong were originally supposed to be the Sith but that was nixed by LFL. (probably not to mess with prequel events)

    To be perfectly honest, I feel that we saw too much of the Vong in VP. If you are going to introduce a giant villian like the Vong, it should be done in stages. The first couple of books should have consisted of the heroes meeting up with small groups of Vong, like scouts or spies and foiling their dastardly plans. ("And I would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for those pesky kids!) The second hardback would have been a good place for the first major space battle wherein we meet this invading menace.

    As it is, the whole thing just seemed too rushed and haphazard. And though we've seen them way too much, we know next to nothing about them. That doesn't seem mysterious to me, just poor planning and explanations. After all the contact we've had with the Vong, even seeing large numbers of scenes from their POV, we should have more knowledge of them.
     
  23. Jades Fire

    Jades Fire Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 1998
    A "Critic" can be described as someone who is critical of something. I started this thread on that premise -- that those who are not happy, ie, critical, of the NJO can have a place to congregate, free of the back-and-forth, tit-for-tat patterns of Literature forum debates on the NJO.

    To those people who are happy or reasonably happy with the NJO, please understand and recognize this fact. The first post was not inflammatory, nor was it a bash. My first post should have indicated quite obviously that this thread had a theme of "the NJO is not good".

    Recognizing these truths, please give deference to those critical of the NJO in this thread. Don't turn this into another tit-for-tat debate thread reminicent of Literature forum threads. I, and others, will take part in Lit forum discussions from time to time. I am not saying you can't participate, but don't fall into the old patterns.
     
  24. Dewlanna Solo

    Dewlanna Solo Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 1999
    MariahJade, the answer for who to blame...I mean, who thought up the Vong can be found in an interview with RAS RAS interview
    It's an interesting interview that sheds some light on the NJO process and Mr. Salvatore himself. For those who'd rather not read the entire interview (it's long) here is the relevant passage
    -------------------------------------------
    TF.N: It was Lucasfilm...[that decided] pretty much the basics of the Yuuzhan Vong?

    RAS: The basics of the Yuuzhan Vong were [determined by] Del Rey, Lucasfilm, and those authors that got together at that meeting, including the absence of the Force, [and] the general physical appearance of them. What I added to the Vong were a lot of the particulars, like the Ooglith Masquer, the Ooglith Cloaker, the dovin basal gravity well creatures, and the coralskippers. Instead of having technology and having them use bio-weapons (like dumping plagues on planets), I had them be completely bio-based. Lucasfilm went for [this] right away, and said, "Yup, completely bio-based. If we can get away with that, let's do it."

    ------------------------------------------

    Count Jared, I agree with your assessment of the Vong's introduction in VP. Love the Scooby reference too. Very fitting for this series.
     
  25. MariahJade2

    MariahJade2 Former Fan Fiction Archive Editor star 5 VIP

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2001
    Hello everyone,

    Are any of you as hot as I am. It's quite
    sticky here.

    Thank you for the link Dewlanna. I read the interview. Interesting. I can't say they were succesful in creating the enemy they hoped for. I seem to find a lot of world war II images, or loose paralles in this story arc, and the Vong just remind me too much of Nazi's, and Dr. Mengele. Especially the Tahiri scenes in Conquest, and Nom Anor and his little lab of horrors. Perhaps they wanted to show that pure evil is not understandable, but I find it too dark. My mind screams out for some reason that makes sense for their actions. I had hoped that after so many books I would find one.

    Jades fire and child of winds, many of your improvements for the series are very much in line with what I would like to see. If the books were a bit longer there would be room for more characterization and plot development. SW readers do not mind long books in my experience if we are getting quality.

    I too feel they are missing opportunities with this story, but I foolishly hope it can be improved.

    Aleja, What kind of stories does Bujold write? Are they Fantasy or Sci fi?

    Count Jared, I missed the Scooby do thing.
    Lol. I never watched that cartoon. I was a rocky and Bullwinkle show person.

     
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