The Non-Religious Perspective (and Q&A)

its the same overhere, up north, in AUckland there are large Pacific Islander suburbs, and they are usually in lower socio economic areas, but their churches are truely things of beauty.........its quite odd to see massive new churches in New Zealand, so these ones stick out, and a few years ago, one of our former Prime Ministers, David Lange who was MP for one of these suburbs did a documentary on these churches, his take was that sure they are nice, but they are essentially parasetic on their communities, these people don't have much money yet they give a substantial portion of their income to their parish, not for charity, but for the churches, and he seemed to think this was unjust..........with which i agree, but that being said, thats how most churches are built......its one of the first things communities build
......NZ is full of beautiful churches from the 1850s-1900s, and because NZ was settled many different congregations ,by RC, ANglicans, two types of presses, methodists, salvation army, baptists, most towns have quite a few big churches.
for example the district i grew up in had about 25,000 people all up, in the main town and the surrounding country areas..the main town had about 13,000 people, it had 4 large churches, about another 8 or 9 smaller ones, and the surrounding countryside had probably another 20-25..of course most of these churches werenot used anymore, with worship increasingly centralised in the main town....what with church attendence rates being under 20%.

something i notice about saerah in particular, and a few others here as well is that you seem immersed in a religious environment .....you say that currently your friends are lutheran, but previously they were pres.....is that usual in the US? usual to have groups of friends with strong religious loyalties? which make a difference to what you do or think?

i personally find that really strange, to have friends based around sectarian religious groups

 

I live in an unofficial part of the Bible Belt, which is why about 95% plus of people here are Christian. I think because a lot of people here have a german background would explain the strong lutheran presence, but I think we have just about every denomination represented here, including a lot of indepedent and pentecostal churches.

 

Even in rural US towns, where the people are middle class with some poor and rich thrown in, the churches are constantly expanding, refurbishing.... since my dad was a minister, I have inside knowledge of where those tithes go - into the building. Well, actually, I'm sorry to say a LOT of people steal it - ministers, relatives of elders, etc. But what's not stolen goes into the building more often than charity.

I know a very rich widow who's giving her life savings - approximately $200 million - to a Catholic Church in L.A. when she dies. This church just started a $160 million refurbishing project (I worked for the construction company briefly, and believe me, there is nothing more you can do for this church but cover everything in a thin veneer of diamond encrusted platinum or something). It's her money, so whatever, but frankly it disgusts me. I'm no fan of donating to charities because I think that like churches, they are huge, unprotected target of theft, but surely she could give her money away to scholarships or something that could really lead someone to an eternal contribution to the good of humanity. I mean, one really good earthquake, and bye bye church.

But to be fair, Catholics have done more to help the poor here in the US than the Protestant churches I know. Soup kitchens where you don't have to be lectured about Jesus, etc..... that's generous of them. Protestants, in my experience, are more likely to put their charity money toward overseas missions to spread the gospels. It's a matter of priorities, I guess. I just prefer the Catholics trying to benefit the communities that benefit their buildings. However, there is nothing that quite screams "fabulous wealth has gone into me" than a Catholic church. None of those ramshackle country chapels for them!

 

I'm thinking of starting an Eastern Philosophy/Taoism/Buddhism Study/Discussion group locally, lol. I know I will have those Independent Baptists knocking my door down trying to convert me, but we all need a little spiritual support from time to time.

 

200 million? Sounds like you have found a new benefactor for yourself, TC. Just call yourself the Universal Church of Catholic TreeCaves and have her donate that money to you....then you could hire me to be your "errand boy" and I could make a million a year for fetching Starbucks


In your part of MD, saerah, I would imagine that such an outwardly progressive religious organization would be virtual electromagnet for those of the hardcore Christian persuasion.

 

But oh boy, wouldn't that be fun, Kessel?

 

Maybe you could incorporate this electromagnetic pull into the title of your group....

Church of NCEMP (non-christian electromagnetic pull)

 

How about "The Western Maryland Heathen Society?"

 

Just call yourself the Universal Church of Catholic TreeCaves and have her donate that money to you....then you could hire me to be your "errand boy" and I could make a million a year for fetching Starbucks

If only I knew how to separate fools from their money... I mean, I'm working in film again now, so there's no better place for someone who has that skill.

My word, I have indeed known some rich, rich fools.

 

TC, you're back in film? Congrats. I'm glad you found something....

 

Well, at the moment, I'm taking a break to have that nervous breakdown that's been coming on for two years, and to recover from an award-winning case of anemia (brought on by stress.... ya think?)

But the type of work I'm seeking is not that hard to find, and if somehow it eludes me, I'm going to find office work in film. Either way, it's clear the universe simply refuses to let me have a day job, so either it means for me to work in film, or it's going to end my short and largely disappointing life with a nice bout of starvation on the streets of LA.

Either way will be a nice change.

 

Everything eludes me these days....I've had a breakdown two years coming as well.

 

I know you have, KR. If the US had socialized health care, I'd so be in one of those spas they provide in European countries for people to have nervous breakdowns in. I'd be writing on the walls with crayons and spending entire days "being" a goldfish, a squirrel, even a virus.

 

yeah but Treecave- unfortunatly in America people do not care about one another, they only care about the all mighty dolar.

 

I don't know if I would go that far, but I agree that money (and what you can do with it) seems to be the primary pursuit of American life. To me, happiness should be our real pursuit in life. To each their own.

As for the topic, I hope I can poke my head in here and offer my thoughts on faith and religious beliefs . I'm Catholic, and have been throughout my life. It has been an up and down journey, which I'm sure many can relate to here.

 

Kw's - i agree wholeheartedly, but most people in the US do not believe as we do.

 

We are in the educated minority. Interestingly enough this current thread of conversation ties in nicely with my comments in the 1988 Election thread.

If we had socialized medicine than many of the crises stressing my life right now would be non-existent.

 

Actually, I honestly think people who live only for money are the real minority, not the "educated" minority you're talking about.

Are the money-driven people (bosses or whatever) the ones who you feel don't care about you guys/girls, or did you really mean that as an aspersion on the general population?

 

I won't speak for Sleazo, but here's what I think.

We're a capitalist nation. Money rules. That's how it should be IF you are capitalist.

The "majority" of people obsessed with money fall into two categories - people who just lust after it, no matter how much or little the have, and people who are controlled by it because they never have enough. It is the second class which is the majority of the majority that *I* would classify as "obsessing" on money, and through no fault of their own.

And to be clear, people who overspend like fools fall into the first class (simply lusting after money), not the second class (people who never have enough). The second class is reserved for those who make an honest effort to live within their means, but have watched their "means" drop lower and lower since the 80's instead of gradually increasing with age and skill, as used to be the usual case.

I will try to find a link if anyone cares, but my aunt informed me the other day of this stat: the people currently making the lower 50% of income made in the US are now making LESS than the lower 50% was making in the 1960's. So there are plenty of legit reasons for people to be struggling financially.

By the way, I just found out why I've had such trouble getting hired anywhere the last 2 years - a high salary history! Apparently, HR people learn in college that people with high salaries in the past will not stay long, so don't hire them - instead, hire whatever moron you must who has a lower salary history. Employees are now being advised not to disclose their salary histories, but companies are allowed to require it. How is that different from asking your religious status? In fact, religion is MORE a choice than your salary is - with salary, you take what you can get. What if someone conducted a narrow study and found that Jews stay in jobs longer than Christians? Would it then be okay to start asking people's religion and discriminating against them on that basis?

 

socialised medicine is good, if you are of low income.........and as a student i am....

i have chronic asthma, and recently developed crohns disease, so i'm on medication every day.....my medication is subsidised so that i only pay $3.00 NZD for each course of treatment, so currently i am on 4 different medications, so i have to pay about $12 NZD every three months for my pills........thats about 6$ US......it would be costing me several hundred dollars outside of subsidy, and then you add the doctor or specialist visits.........which cost heaps, but are free, if you are willing to wait............

 

Treecave- you summed up my belief well. What amazes me is that the conservative fundamentalists who should be living by the goldne rule are the ones who oppose soicialized medicine, and us godless liberal hippies are the ones who want to do good for our fellow humans.

Humble- i m sorry for your bad break, I wish you well and I amhappy your country can help you out the way they do.

 

So because I think socialized medicine doesn't work, I don't care about my fellow man?

There are already threads about socialized medicine, so it shouldn't be debated here. Suffice it to say that socialized medicine is a ticket for doctors and heads of insurance companies (some of which are conservatives!) to charge anything they want, sky's the limit, and force the working class citizens to pay for it. We're part way there now, which is exactly why medicine and doctor visits cost way more than you can afford. But when the free market rules, doctors and insurance companies can't charge more than people can afford, because otherwise they would go out of business.

See, my way helps my fellow man and doesn't cost other fellow men an arm and a leg to finance it. I'm for helping everyone!

Sometimes you have to think things all the way through, otherwise you might buy into propaganda from people who claim to want to help you, but really just want to help themselves.

 

oh its not bad, my illnesses are under control.....there is nothing i can do about them at this stage, just hope for a miracle

 

Humble, I wish you the best of health. I suffer from mild asthma myself. Fall is a bad time of year for that.

 

I'm so sorry Humble. My mother has Crohn's as well. I know how hard it can be.

As it is, my fiance has chronic pain, immune deficiency and chronic fatigue. THe lack of universal health care has been a constant burden for us to overcome. In fact we have not been able to marry yet because of it.