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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

The Non-Religious Perspective (and Q&A)

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Kessel Runner, Aug 5, 2002.

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  1. Humble extra

    Humble extra Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 1999
    well, KR, i feel more sorry for you, having money issues sucks, but when they directly impact on your health, and the health of your family its so much worse, especially knowing there are treatments out there.......perhaps you should consider immigration to Canada, NZ or Australia? ( this may seem drastic, but young, college educated immigrants are usually pretty welcome over here, especially if they speak english like a native)


    because i have access to cheap medical care, have a supportive family, i don't really see my conditions as real problems, they don't really disturb my life with any great regularity as far as i can tell....

     
  2. sleazo

    sleazo Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2001
    Darth Fierce- there are tow testimonials as to why socialized medecine should exist. And if you want to get specific about it, in canada where there is a form of socialized medecine, the doctors and health care companies make less money than they do in America. The price of prescription drugs is so insane here for the simple fact that we do not have socialized medecine.

    And you know what if people do make money on socialized medecine, than so be it. At least people who need healthcare will get it. Frankly enough of my tax dollars are wasted on things alot less important than healthcare. Socialized medecine would not take too much money out of the pocket of the working man(ie me). We waste enoug of my taxes anyway.

    So yes i do actually think about things before i comment on them. I just think of things from the point of view of the more unfortunate.


    And to Kesell, I also wish you and your girlfriend my best
     
  3. Darth Fierce

    Darth Fierce Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 6, 2000
    I second those wishes, Kessel.

    sleazo, first off I re-read what I said about thinking things through, and I didn't mean it how it sounded. My apologies if it sounded like an attack. Second, we can agree to disagree about the costs of socialized medicine, as long as both sides realize the other does want people to be helped. It's just a matter of how to do it. Being against socialization doesn't mean you don't care.
     
  4. saerah

    saerah Jedi Grand Master star 7

    Registered:
    May 13, 1999
    I just surgery in June--another addition to my medical bills. I'm 24 and falling apart. Hopefully, with this new job I have, I will have health insurance, but of course there are limitations on pre-existing conditions.

    So I guess that means in order to use my insurance, I'll have to be diagnosed with some new ailments :p
     
  5. Kessel Runner

    Kessel Runner Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 1999
    Isn't that the nastiest of all legal cop-outs? How in the world can an insurance company be allowed to not cover an ailment just because you had it before they started covering you.
     
  6. TreeCave

    TreeCave Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2001
    Humble, I didn't realize Crohn's and asthma were connected. Scary! I'm glad it's under control for you. I know it's a difficult thing to have, to say the least. :(

    Fierce, I understand why you took exception to the possibility Sleazo was suggesting you don't care about people, but your "don't think things all the way through" commented prompted one response from me: I personally have thought it all the way through, and think you have it all backwards. Just didn't want you thinking that because we disagree with you, we're all idiots. That would be just as nasty as assuming just because someone's conservative, they're for screwing over the poor. ;)

    Saerah, sorry!

    I have a lot of illness and health problems myself and have had to forget going to doctors. All they ever did was give me antibiotics before, anyway. I hate the Western medicine view that good health is anything other than falling over dead, as opposed to optimum health. The Chinese have that one right. So when I go into a Western doctor, and I'm able to walk and talk properly because I have been sick since childhood and therefore learned to ignore the symptoms, they either can't diagnose it at all, or chalk it up to my imagination. Believe me, I've never had enough time on my hands to invent ailments for myself.

    KR, I know a few things about chronic fatigue and immuno deficiency. PM me if you want some thoughts on natural remedies. You may know it all already, but we should at least compare notes.

    How in the world can an insurance company be allowed to not cover an ailment just because you had it before they started covering you.

    Congress got some payola, declared it "okey-dokey", end of story. ;)
     
  7. Force of Nature

    Force of Nature Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 1999
    That's the problem with private medical insurance. Obviously, no insurance company is going deliberately to put itself into a situation where on-going - and maybe large - pay-outs are more likely than not. Sheesh, they're in business to make money like anyone else!

    I'm curious ... what happens with regard to people who are born with a medical problem (or problems)? I can see how they might be OK to start with if they were covered by their parents' insurance, but (a) would it affect their parents' premia thereafter and (b) what happens if/when they have to take out their own insurance?

    Darth Fierce, do please tell NHS doctors and nurses in the UK how much money they're making working in the public sector; I don't think they've noticed! I don't think anyone in the private sector need ever worry about pricing her/himself out of the market; when it comes to their own health, I'm sure most people with money are willing to pay for treatment at the asking price.
     
  8. saerah

    saerah Jedi Grand Master star 7

    Registered:
    May 13, 1999
    I'll just have to wait and see what limitations my insurance will hold. (Should I pray on it? ;))
     
  9. Kessel Runner

    Kessel Runner Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 1999
    The irony is that the insurance company will not cover the basic medicine required for survival, even if it means the patient will end up needing emergency medicine, which costs exorbitantly more.
     
  10. saerah

    saerah Jedi Grand Master star 7

    Registered:
    May 13, 1999
    Thankfully, I am part of a program called Maryland Physicians Partners that pays for my therapy and psychiatry appt's, or I get a copay depending on my income. I also get my medication for free.

    Strangely, we have good organizations here that are supportive of mental illness (I was diagnosed with major depressive disorder in 1997), but nothing for regular doctor visits.
     
  11. chibiangi

    chibiangi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2002
    Well, part of that is because they consider "severe mental illness" the same as a severe medical illness and cover it under the medical portion of the insurance plan. Say, for example, I have panic disorder. Panic disorder is considered by most insurance companies to be a sever mental illness. I would be charged the same as a doctor's visit to see the shrink. However, if I needed to see the shrink because I was feeling blue, then it falls under the mental health portion where a lot of insurance companies really skimp.

    I'm curious ... what happens with regard to people who are born with a medical problem (or problems)? I can see how they might be OK to start with if they were covered by their parents' insurance, but (a) would it affect their parents' premia thereafter and (b) what happens if/when they have to take out their own insurance?

    This all depends upon whether or not it is group or individual coverage. Under group insurance that is bought through the company, the insurance company cannot deny you coverage. However, under individual insurance, the insurance company can deny you coverage for just about anything they want. For example, right now I am unemployed (recently graduated) and I have tried to buy individual insurance, but they will not insure me because I was born with a physical foot defect. Now, I have not been treated for this since I was a child, but according to them I am a risk. Same goes for my sister who has asthma and allergies. She has not been hospitalized for either one since she was very young because she has kept it under control. But now she cannot get insurance because she is a risk to the insurance companies.

    What sucks is say, you become sick and are diabled. Then what? You might get COBRA insurance for awhile but what happens after that? I really feel sorry for people in that situation.

    UGH. I just really hate insurance companies.
     
  12. Kessel Runner

    Kessel Runner Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 1999
    THis is sort of akin to what I am dealing with. My fiance was in a severe auto accident when she was a teenager so currently she is still covered under parents insurance. She is in her early 30's. But we cannot get married because neither of us have insurance that will cover her...given it is a pre-existing condition.

    She is trapped with having her parents insurance and I will never have the legal authority to assist in her medical needs.
     
  13. TreeCave

    TreeCave Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2001
    KR, I guess she's supposed to sue the bloody hell out of whoever hit her, whoever made the car that hit her, whoever made her car which failed not to be hit, and so on. Even if she was at fault in the accident, sue everybody! It's the American way. So much better than a socialized insurance plan that might help us avoid lawsuits. ;)

    In the US, if God didn't create you equal in the health department, you can go die, and please do it quietly so as not to upset everyone else while they're enjoying their good health watching cable and drinking beer. ;)

    The US has the worst infant mortality rate of any industrialized nation. We have tons of people who are uninsured (almost everyone I know) because temping is so popular, because unemployment is so high, because employers won't pay for it and salaries have stayed flat since the 80's (hmm, insurance or rent, which shall I pay this month?) and because the baby boomers are simply too numerous.

    Socialized insurance - not socialized medicine, just insurance - could help, but few people are even really discussing the merits out of prejudice against anything you call "socialized" (not Fierce, but most people I've talked to don't even know what they're so strongly objecting to).

    The other thing that would help is sue all the old rich asses that made the baby boom generation so huge before they're dead, and get all their money. I know all these 70+ year old people who own several homes and rent them out at exhorbitant rates and gripe at having to tip. They insisted on having more kids than any sane person could want - let them pay for the mess they've left the world in.
     
  14. Kessel Runner

    Kessel Runner Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 1999
    I note some irony and cynicism there, I think ;)


    For the record, she was a passenger in the car.
     
  15. saerah

    saerah Jedi Grand Master star 7

    Registered:
    May 13, 1999
    I'm speaking for how Maryland handles mental illness--I'm not sure how other states handle it.
     
  16. TreeCave

    TreeCave Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2001
    I note some irony and cynicism there, I think

    Ya think? Ya sure did! :)

    I admit I would move from the US if I could afford it, and if I could find a country I like that speaks English. It's not that I dislike the US, it's just not a good fit for me. But I don't want to be like some of the immigrants I've seen who bring their culture with them when they move to the US. If you want to emigrate, you should plan to embrace the culture of the country you're moving to, and I can't afford to travel and check them out. The US has seen to that - hmm, wonder if they're afraid more of us would leave if we traveled and saw not everything we've been told about the Land of Opportunity being so superior to other nations was just a patriotic myth.

    The only English-speaking country that seems at all cool AND has film industry for me to work in is Australia. I dreamed I moved there last night, and had a chat with Paul Hogan, who confirmed Australia was a lot like Southern California, but he was currently too relaxed to continue discussing it with me. "Awesome!" I thought. The whole thing was very Douglas Adams. But then this weird guy followed me home to LA from there and tried to attack me in a friends apartment, so I had to use the Force to give him a heart attack, then grab my broadsword to slice his head off. Then his headless corpse tried to come after me, but fortunately I was on a ladder and managed to impale him with the ladder.

    You think it I wrote that into a script, they'd put Jamie Lee Curtis in it and make it Halloween 69? [face_laugh]
     
  17. emilsson

    emilsson Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 5, 1998
    But I don't want to be like some of the immigrants I've seen who bring their culture with them when they move to the US. If you want to emigrate, you should plan to embrace the culture of the country you're moving to, and I can't afford to travel and check them out.

    This makes me think of what we have seen in Sweden during the last fifty years when immigration increased. During the 90's many refugees from Bosnia and other areas of conflict came to Sweden. This has resulted in Sweden now having several different faiths, though most belong to Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Jews and muslims now have their own sacred places here in Sweden. So in a sense they brought their own culture with them.

    Yet I support the building of synagouges and other buildings of religious significance. Swedish law concerning religion is based on freedom of religion and religious tolerance. I just wish the language teaching worked better in order to make communications easier.
     
  18. TreeCave

    TreeCave Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2001
    Well, I'm certainly not saying people should abandon their religions or pretend to be someone they're not. I was more referring to things like... there was one Mexican family in the community where I grew up. The mother operated a great restaurant here, sent her kids to one of the best public schools available, but constantly harrassed her kids about bad American kids being bad influences on them. She made them feel guilty about having American friends (and there were NO other Mexicans around!), wouldn't let the daughter wear a perfectly wholesome knee-length demin skirt, etc. It was nearly impossible for the kids to fit into American society, yet the mother lectured them almost daily about how great the country was and how much they could do here. I guess she loved the money-making opportunities, but resented Americans themselves. Anyway, it seemed hard on the kids to me.

    And frankly, I don't have much sympathy for people who move to a place just to make more money or just to spend less. If that's why they moved, they should shut up if they don't like the people or the government. People who move somewhere as refugees, I have more sympathy for, but they should be grateful to the country taking them in, and try not to make divisions in the culture.

    Mexicans, in particular, fall into both categories. A few years ago, our government assisted a crooked Mexican president in devaluing the peso disastrously - the president made out quite well, and the people ended up with nothing. So we have both rich Mexicans moving here to get richer, and terribly poor ones moving here to avoid starvation, and that's why their numbers have increased so dramatically in the past few years. The ones who were going to starve in Mexico tend to fit in with our culture while remaining Catholic, family-oriented, and speaking Spanish. They take jobs Americans don't want, and are pleasant to deal with. The rich ones tend to be rude, scornful and mysogynistic.
     
  19. Kessel Runner

    Kessel Runner Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 1999
    I must admit I'm torn on that comment about culture. Frankly I think the ideal situation is for both cultures (the greater American one and the individuals who have immigrated) to both gain and benefit from each other. I think there are positives and benefits that can be found in every culture and that we should all embrace those benefits from one another.

    Also, I think of note. I heard this not too long ago on a economics program on PBS. The African Population here in the U.S. has a greater GNP by themselves than does the entire country of Canada. Things are that much richer here. The only problem is that it also means things are that more expensive here too, thus making it harder for the middle and lower incomes to live a comfortable life.
     
  20. emilsson

    emilsson Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 5, 1998
    I agree with KR's first point. I do believe that immigrants have to make an effort to adopt. At the same time I think the country they move should make it easier for them to get acustomed to the new country. I'm thinking of things like putting the children in special language programs before they enter the normal education system as well as forming communities that include both native and immigrant inhabitants. Though the last part is hard to accomplish.
     
  21. TreeCave

    TreeCave Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2001
    I think I'm not phrasing my thoughts well. Let me try again. If YOU choose to emigrate at no invitation from the place you're emigrating to, you have a responsibility to refrain from making divisions in that culture. As long as you're not deliberately going around upsetting things, the country to which you emigrated SHOULD be able to gain a lot from you and others like you.

    A better example, perhaps, would be that I have talked to some people who come here to own businesses, and are angry that they can't refuse to hire black people, whom they simply dislike. They can feel that way if they want, of course, but if they take action on it, I'm going to take action right back at them. They knew we don't allow discrimination like that when the CHOSE to move here and make better money running a shop here instead of in their homeland, so they can put up with our employment rules.

    That's what I mean by making divisions in the culture. If you don't like the culture of a place you are CHOOSING to move to, maybe you should rethink moving there.

    If you're more of a refugee, then I understand how it feels to be between a rock and a hard place. But ironically, it's the people of a refugee mentality who are more likely to appreciate whatever the new country is giving them (at least in the US, this seems to be what I've witnessed) even if they don't love everything in the culture.

    Legally, of course, once people are citizens, they can do what they please, including campaigning for the right to not hire blacks or whatever. This is just my moral take, and a description of the type of immigrant I would not want to become. When I was forced to grow up in Tennessee, which some of the natives will even admit is largely peopled by folks who intend to stay ignorant and inbred no matter what, I wanted to show them that the Emperor wasn't wearing any new clothes - basically, show them they were full of it. When I became an adult, I realized it was just better for me to move somewhere more diverse, so I did. I had every right to stay in TN and try to force open-mindedness on the inhabitants, but it didn't seem like a proper moral stance, once I was old enough to choose where I could live.
     
  22. Kessel Runner

    Kessel Runner Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 1999
    So, you chose to move to a land of greater diversity rather than try and change a land that lacked it?

    I'm gonna throw in a weird little twist here.

    Wouldn't the Rebel Alliance from SW fit the latter category? They realize the system is wrong, but they stay put and try to overthrow it. How does that fit into your moral code? (I'm not trying to be snide or nasty, just playing devil's advocate)
     
  23. TreeCave

    TreeCave Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2001
    If the Empire was thye ORIGINAL culture, the Rebels would be forcing change upon it. But the alliance is trying to restore the culture the Empire stole. I think if you take the whole saga into account, it's a little different from what I'm talking about in that sense.

    I did try to change TN while I was there, mostly because they treated me like crap for not being a WASP male Republican (had the WASP part covered, but not the rest, and wasn't a psycho-fundie "Protestant" anyway). But who am I to judge and say that ignorance is wrong? Yes, traditions as old as Buddhism abhor ignorance, but some Christian churches have, over the years, interpreted the Bible as saying that education is an attempt to elevate oneself above God (Tower of Babel, Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil), that dark skin is the mark of Cain, etc. If I try to force them to give up those beliefs, how am I any different from a Christian who harrasses people who don't believe what he does, or a Muslim who has a personal holy war against everyone who pisses him off?

    It's fine to try to enlighten people, but should I try to remake the US into a semi-socialist Republic because I think that's a better form of government than the alleged democratic republic we have now? Or should I just move somewhere that already has that form of government?

    I mean, seriously, it's an interesting question and there are many valid ways to look at it. Obviously, no change has ever occurred at the behest of the majority. The Colonists didn't like England's taxes on them, but it took a few individuals who were fed up to start the revolution. Should I be a revolutionary, or just peacefully move on and say good riddance?

    And I'm just using myself as an example here. I don't have all that much of a problem with living in the US, I'd just appreciate having some options, because I think I would be happier elsewhere, and could contribute more to the world artistically. Then of course the US would try to claim me, and I'd be all "bite me, you had your chance". :p Just kidding.
     
  24. Humble extra

    Humble extra Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 1999
    as far as immigration is concerned, you have to remember most english speaking cultures have been immersed in american culture for the last 50 years........creates a kinda weird situation in that most locals are intimately comfortable with some aspects of american culture but still resent the "outsider"
     
  25. Kessel Runner

    Kessel Runner Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 1999
    I think I idolize Old Ben too much> I want to follow him on some damn fool idealistic crusade ;)


    Yes, it is a very interesting question/answer. Is it better to try and "progress" the society or is it beyond progression and it is better to move to a more "enlightened" nation. Hmmm.. I have to admit that TJD and I have given some minor consideration to moving to someplace like Canada.
     
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