Senate The North Korea Issue

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Ben_Skywalker, Feb 18, 2013.

  1. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Except China is fed up with the DPRK too.

    Anyway. Kimmy had to deal with a coup attempt last november, so he's got to do the whole macho hollering thing his dad and grandad did, but even harder to show how tough he is. It's just a thing they do. The difference is that the South doesn't really play nice anymore-they've said recently that if the DPRK ever employs their nuclear weapons against them, they're going to plain wipe the North off the map, which is well within their military capabilities.
  2. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    I completely agree with the first part of your paragraph.

    Except what do you mean by the second part? While the newly elected President of South Korea, Park Geun-hye, represents the Korean version of the Tea Party, she did emphasize re-unification during her campaign and not conflict. The other issue is that both sides play more toward the "showy" side of things. While South Korea's military is obviously way, well above the North's (to the point that North Korean troops have to share uniforms through rotation without washing), South Korea has a lot of internal issues as well.

    The main issue is that the South's conscription program is rife with fraud and abuse. The joint KATUSA program is a reward for the wealthy in Korea, leaving the regular military forces comprised of those Koreans who don't have the "juice" to get out. Basically, the current state of the Korean military is how the US military was circa 1968 Vietnam.

    The second issue which relates to the first one is that the military is most certainly a two tier set up. While the South has things like a decent tank with their "Black Panther" MBT, the South still has A LOT of Korean War-era M48 Patton tanks. Ditto with the air force. While the front line units have F-15's and F-16's, there are still entire South air bases that fly nothing but old 60's F-4 Phantoms.

    This is why the South is so on edge with regards to a mass bombardment type of attack from the North. From a strategy standpoint, all the North has to do is make the South's few "top tier" bases combat ineffective, and the resulting combat would almost become a throwback to the original Korean War, where masses of low tech Northern troops clash with their Southern counterparts that are using weapons that are only slightly more effective, if not equal. Unless things have recently changed, the US government also still has singular control over the most advanced technology, such as Patriot PAC-3's, which are so vital for the defense of the South.

    This assumes non and/or marginal involvement from the US, which isn't realistic, but that's the key. If anyone has the capability to "wipe the North off the map," it isn't South Korea, but the US, acting on the South's behalf, if the US makes the decision to do so. With the US-Korean policy of transferring full control back to South Korea by 2015 or 2016, we'll have to see how much the US would actually get involved.
  3. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    I don't doubt we'll remain in a mutual-defense treaty. Here's the full quote, though:

    Under newly inaugurated President Park Geun-hye, South Korea's Defense Ministry, which often brushes off North Korean threats, has looked to send a message of strength in response to the latest comments from Pyongyang.
    The ministry has warned that the North's government would "evaporate from the face of the Earth" if it ever used a nuclear weapon. The White House also said the U.S. is fully capable of defending itself against a North Korean ballistic attack.
  4. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    For their internal audience, to convince the population that they are an equal match to the United States, and it's only at their mercy do we continue to live.

    They don't really want a war, I think, but they could miscalculate and go too far. And even China has been signaling that it's fed up with them, since China helped write the latest sanctions against them.
  5. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    Ah, ok. So Park Geun-hye was speaking more in general terms, as it applies to any belligerent nation that would happen to use nuclear weapons. Not that her government was going to be doing the wiping. But still, she's still writing a check that South Korea really couldn't cash on its own, so it would fall to the US to float the loan, so to speak.

    Can anyone explain what exactly North Korea hopes to gain (other than their own fiery death) with all these promises to kill millions of Americans very soon?

    Without experiencing it first hand, it's difficult for anyone to understand just how isolated, in every sense of the word, the people of North Korea are. One can view the You tube "propaganda," and laugh, but stuff like that doesn't even begin to capture the situation there. Entire populations within cities have starved to death, and the rest of the people are told that the cities never existed, and/or that the people have moved elsewhere for the greater good. (except for the obvious problem that grandma is never heard from again-she must have moved REALLY far away). In fact, there are entire pre-fabricated towns that have mannequins in the windows and fake facades to give a good face, but are otherwise empty. There are vast swaths of land that are barren of any trees or any other life because they have all been chopped down for firewood. One can see NK ceremonial guards switch shifts and they literally share uniforms because there is only enough cloth for a single uniform for every 3 or 4 soldiers.

    Not everywhere in NK is like that. The party insiders and the higher military echelons have it better. But the important thing is that the regular people are told that is how the rest of the world is, and, in fact, North Korea is better off than everyone else because of the sacrifices of the masses. It's how the system has survived for so long. But the only way it can keep going is if the entire "cult of personality" is upheld and the people think its leadership is without flaw. It's why perception is everything. But the country is truly something out of a Twilight Zone episode, or from 1984, or out of what we consider to be science fiction.
    Last edited by Mr44, Mar 30, 2013
  6. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Yeah, I mischaracterized the quote, but it's wholly accurate from a technical standpoint-South Korea has been under the "umbrella" of US nuclear weapons for a long time, and President Obama's rephrasing of our deterrence policy makes it even more so.
  7. Alpha-Red Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2004
    star 5
    So I guess this can only go one of two ways. Either things de-escalate in the next few days, or Wikipedia will soon have a "Second Korean War" article.
  8. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Well, it'll be longer than the next few days.
  9. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    I didn't realize until recently that Park Geun-hye was this lovely man's daughter (I assumed the name similarity was pure coincidence) and she hasn't exactly spoken poorly of her father's administration.

    Does the DPRK have a single-person nuke they can send over? [face_whistling]
  10. CloneUncleOwen Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2009
    star 4
    Not an appropriate Senate post.
    Last edited by JoinTheSchwarz, Mar 31, 2013
  11. Juliet316 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2005
    star 7
    Technically, the first one never offically ended.
  12. DantheJedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2009
    star 5
    Do you think in the Marvel Cinematic universe, Kim Jon-Un is continuing his father's ambitions to build an Iron Man armor, despite whatever setbacks might arise?
  13. Asterix_of_Gaul Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 5
    Future fix
  14. Asterix_of_Gaul Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 5
    lag
    Last edited by Asterix_of_Gaul, Mar 30, 2013
  15. Game3525 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2008
    star 4
    For Kim? Respect......for the rest of the people.....food.
    Violent Violet Menace likes this.
  16. Blue_Jedi33 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2003
    star 5
    Until the first weapon of any type hits SK it's all bluster and smoke and mirrors.
    The problem is when you ratchet things up to this level mistakes and accidents can happen, or a NK officer could go rogue and start something, then it is on even if both sides never wanted it to be.
  17. Eeth-my-Koth Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2001
    star 9
  18. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 5
    @Eeth-my-Koth - this thread is tagged Senate, please stick to discussing the topic. Thanks.
  19. Eeth-my-Koth Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2001
    star 9

    My mistake. Didn't realize it was 24/7 srs bizness in here.
  20. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    I believe a lot of this is happening exactly because North Korea has caught on to the fact that the world is not taking it seriously. The U.S. is trying to play along, but not hard enough. The wackadoodle belligerence is hard to respond to with a straight face. We find it strangely endearing. We want to reach out and give Kim Jong-un a big hug. We suspect he's only a bit player in this epic farce.
  21. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    I'm really glad I flew through Seoul the day before this all occurred and am now firmly ensconsed in Hong Kong, not terribly far away. o_O

    The news stations out here aren't really covering it locally, except CNN, that I've seen -- so that may either indicate how seriously China is either ignoring or treating it.
  22. Alpha-Red Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2004
    star 5
    If that's true then it means North Korea really takes its own propaganda about being the greatest nation on earth seriously. And that's a problem.
  23. V-2 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2012
    star 4
    I just heard a pundit on BBC WS suggest that the reason Un is kicking off is because of a power play by one of his uncles.
  24. darthhelinith Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 10, 2009
    star 5
    I just think it's all trying to incite a response.
    If US/S.Korea shoots first, then N.Korea can play the "They shot first" blame game.

    I actually think the best move would be to tone down the military movements in response to N.Korea threats. It's better to mostly ignore the kid in the corner of the playground yelling "Look at me! Look at all my toys!" although obviously while keeping an eye on whats going on.
  25. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    I think us ignoring them for so long it was caused them to keep raising the rhetoric. It probably started with Un trying to prove himself to the generals.

    Now they may feel forced into launching some small attack... but they could miscalculate, and South Korea could respond to one in a huge way.