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Discussion in 'Role Playing Resource Archive' started by Ktala, May 22, 2008.
Wonderful article, and a very enjoyable read.
First off, wonderful read Ktala. It's good to see your view on things.
Secondly, Lightwarden, Kev is coming from his own personal opinion. While he may come across like he's saying, "This is the way it is, and that's that," I doubt he means it.
Thirdly, Kev, the title of Grey Jedi is a very debated term. It is used by very many different fans to mean very many different things. In the case of the Grey Jedi fanclub of the EUC, we envision a Grey Jedi as one who believes that there is no Lightside or Darkside, and seeks to find balance within himself, and within the galaxy. It is by no means a "Do whatever you like" card. Yes, a Grey Jedi as we see it (again, our opinion) will usually have the belief that the ends justify the means, but only in certain cases. He's not going to kill fifty people in order to eliminate one person, and he's not going to kill fifty mean to save one person.
The way I view balance with the grey jedi, is one that balances themselves into harmony. They realize that without evil there is no good, without good there is no evil. Without day there is no night, without night there is no day. It is a matter of everything needing everything in a balanced way. If good or evil becomes unbalanced then the rest of the galaxy suffers. If the Jedi become too "powerful" and wipe out the sith, they become complacent, as they believe their enemies to be vanquished. In this, they allow new evil to infiltrate the galaxy, and the evil, because of the Jedi's complacency, will be more powerful than the good. If the evil becomes too "powerful" then the good is unbalanced, and again the galaxy suffers.
Thus, to say "We need to kill off every Jedi and Sith to create balance" is silly, because you need the opposite. You need the Jedi to balance the sith and the sith to balance the Jedi. In order to find balance in evil and good, or light and dark, you wouldn't kill off both. To try and balance the galaxy is a worthless endeavour. But try and balance yourself and you reach harmony within your own demons and angels, your own light and darkness. Then you can deal with matters in a balanced way. The Grey Jedi's philosphy, as the Templars (the fan club) see it, is that if you balance yourself, and deal with each situation in balance, then those you deal with shall follow suit. And then its dominos from there. Now of course, it isn't that simple. But that's the philosophy in a very small, very brief nutshell.
Kev, please stop coming across as if you are the authority on Grey Jedi. Nobody is an authority on them, because there are so many fan opinions on what a Grey Jedi truly is. Also, just because your character is a Grey Jedi (or templar in this case) doesn't make him the perfect one. The whole idea of our grey jedi is that they are striving for balance. A young grey jedi isn't going to spend two years and be like "boom! Yay I'm balanced!"
Also, because of balance, a Grey Jedi, in my opinion, would frown upon killing when he didn't need to. What would killing do if it wasn't neccesary? It would CREATE imbalance, which is the exact opposite of what he wants to do. One does not create balance by simply removing what is creating imbalance. That just keeps the imbalance going.
But anyway, I hope what I wrote is understandable.
When did I say that I was the authority on Grey Jedi? If anything, I view my philosophy as flawed. This is why I stated a bit ago that I was probably going too far, as I was unsure if I was saying the right things.
Kev, when you're consistently providing responses to my questions without giving any indication that you don't know what you're talking about, I am forced to assume that you know what you're talking about.
Dade, you've done a much clearer job of explaining your position, but something about it sounds weird, like reasons found for a specific philosophy rather than a philosophy founded on specific reasons. No offense intended, but given in all honesty, I suspect that was the case, where the idea of Gray Jedi was picked up on and people thought "hmm, why would a Gray Jedi be gray"?
In the case of the Grey Jedi fanclub of the EUC, we envision a Grey Jedi as one who believes that there is no Lightside or Darkside, and seeks to find balance within himself, and within the galaxy.
The way I view balance with the grey jedi, is one that balances themselves into harmony. They realize that without evil there is no good, without good there is no evil.
So, you believe in Good and Evil without a Light Side and Dark Side, right? A "there are no evil powers, only evil users," "Force powers don't kill people, people kill people" sort of thing?
Without day there is no night, without night there is no day. It is a matter of everything needing everything in a balanced way. If good or evil becomes unbalanced then the rest of the galaxy suffers. If the Jedi become too "powerful" and wipe out the sith, they become complacent, as they believe their enemies to be vanquished. In this, they allow new evil to infiltrate the galaxy, and the evil, because of the Jedi's complacency, will be more powerful than the good. If the evil becomes too "powerful" then the good is unbalanced, and again the galaxy suffers.
Thus, to say "We need to kill off every Jedi and Sith to create balance" is silly, because you need the opposite. You need the Jedi to balance the sith and the sith to balance the Jedi. In order to find balance in evil and good, or light and dark, you wouldn't kill off both. To try and balance the galaxy is a worthless endeavour. But try and balance yourself and you reach harmony within your own demons and angels, your own light and darkness. Then you can deal with matters in a balanced way.
Well, the galaxy suffers anyways, since Team Evil tends to do a lot of that, and the whole "Battle of Good and Evil" tends to take lives from everyone. A stalemate just turns it into World War I, a never-ending meat-grinder where nothing changes except the body count. But say one side wins. The side grows complacent, a newer and stronger version of the defeated comes back to play, wipes out the other side, which then goes off into the mountains for a few episodes to train and raise its power level to learn a new transformation so it can come back and fight.
So, if Good can't exist without Evil and vice versa because they're two sides of the same coin and all that... exactly what purpose do you guys serve? If one side just comes back stronger, it looks as though the universe can balance itself. So... why do you need to be balanced? Why not... pick a side? What exactly does listening to your evil half help do aside from letting you have awesome powers and a neat press release? Apparently, you guys aren't totally apathetic about others, because you seem to think that the galaxy suffering under the weight of Team Evil is a bad thing... So why not go totally Light Side? So what if they wipe out evil and grow complacent, there'll be a period of peace where the little guy isn't getting stomped by Team Evil. Team Evil comes back strong and makes a nuisance of itself... well, dem's the breaks, just look forward to Team Good II: Electric Boogaloo. If things are perfectly balance, the universe will take care of itself.
Of course, if you think that Good and Evil aren't Left and Right, but Up and Down, then there's not a perfect balance after all, with a natural gravity that makes it easy to go one way, hard to go the other... then, there'd probably be a reason to try to prevent Team Evil from gaining an adva
To answer your question, Lightwarden, the reason we don't "pick a side" is because that would defeat the whole purpose of our philosophy. Sometimes the less savoury path is needed to achieve the ultimate "good" which is balance, in our case. We, as "Gray Jedi" believe that the Jedi are misguided do-gooders who do not see the consequences of their actions, and refuse to believe that there is anything more evil than the sith, and we view sith as misguided power-hungry warmongers who care nothing for the good of the galaxy, and only want more power than they will ever have. The force is a circle, and a circle has no beginning and no end, however depending on which way you look at it, it does have a left side and a right side. It also has a middle. We are the middle.
Yes, we don't want to see the galaxy ruled under team evil, but we also don't want to see it ruled under Team Self-Righteous, either. Furthermore, the reason the gray jedi of our fandom do not view lightside and darkside, and because they don't see in black and white. They don't see in absolutes like Jedi or Sith. Thus, they don't see things in terms of "good" or "evil." They see things in terms of order, chaos and harmony. Order can be just as evil as any sith, and chaos can be just as good as the most valiant Jedi that you'll ever meet. However, few jedi or sith could ever reach true harmony, because they see the galaxy in terms of "lightside good, darkside bad." Whereas "we" see the galaxy in terms of the force, as the force has no lightside or darkside. I can use a force push to crush somebody against a spike and I can use force lightning to jump-start someone's heart and bring them back to life. As you guessed, we believe that there are no good or evil powers, just good and evil ways in which to use them.
To put it in more perspective, we realize that without one side of the coin, there cannot be another. Thus, if the sith tried to fully wipe out the jedi, we would aid the jedi in stopping that. However, if the Jedi tried to do the same thing to the sith, we would help the sith defend themselves. Our particular philosophy is hard for some people to understand, I know. The general concesus of the people who do not like our philosophy is that we are simply gray because we don't want to choose a side, and becuase we want to be darkside without consequences. While this is the philosphy of some misguided few within our order, it is not the official stance of the order. The official stance of the order is one very simple code: There is no light side or dark side. There is only the force. Wisdom is my guide.
It is simple, yet profound. Yes, we believe there is no lightside and darkside, but we let our wisdom be our guide. We let the wise among our order give us advice on the right course of action. We let our personal experience tell us what the proper course of action shall be in any given situation. We do not let ideals come in between us and the proper course of action. If the proper course of action is to sit back and do nothing, then we must control ourselves and do so.
As interesting as your argument is, I think it's detracting from the purpose of the thread.
We, as "Gray Jedi" believe that the Jedi are misguided do-gooders who do not see the consequences of their actions, and refuse to believe that there is anything more evil than the sith, and we view sith as misguided power-hungry warmongers who care nothing for the good of the galaxy, and only want more power than they will ever have.
That sounds like a rather strange representation of the sides. Sure, you've described a large and loud portion of the gibbering mouthers that make up some of the Community Council Jedi thread, but just because some people are terrible Jedi, it doesn't mean that the Jedi are terrible. If you're going to judge either side, then wouldn't it be better to judge them by the way they're supposed to be, be they Jedi or Sith? This is rather like me making the assumption about the Gray Jedi thanks to certain representatives. So tell me, what of the Jedi Code suggests "misguided do-gooders who do not see the consequences of their actions, and refuse to believe that there is anything more evil than the sith"?
The force is a circle, and a circle has no beginning and no end, however depending on which way you look at it, it does have a left side and a right side. It also has a middle. We are the middle.
Are we talking disc or ring? Because there's nothing but empty space in the middle of a ring. Anyways, no one has ever won an argument with an analogy, so let's continue and find a case with a little more meat on it.
Yes, we don't want to see the galaxy ruled under team evil, but we also don't want to see it ruled under Team Self-Righteous, either.
Wait... Self-Righteous? As in, moralistic, assured of one's "goodness" and utterly intolerant of different opinions? The Jedi Order is so self-righteous that when they encounter other Force sects such as the Matukai and the Potentium, they were so full of themselves that they... left those guys alone to do their own thing? If anyone's "self-righteous" here...
Furthermore, the reason the gray jedi of our fandom do not view lightside and darkside, and because they don't see in black and white.
And these other guys... do?
They don't see in absolutes like Jedi or Sith.
Aside from that one, you mean? Overplayed joke aside, let's continue.
Thus, they don't see things in terms of "good" or "evil." They see things in terms of order, chaos and harmony.
These aren't absolutes? Plus, I'm pretty sure there was a line about harmony and serenity in the Jedi Code, so I don't think you guys have a monopoly on that one.
Order can be just as evil as any sith, and chaos can be just as good as the most valiant Jedi that you'll ever meet. However, few jedi or sith could ever reach true harmony, because they see the galaxy in terms of "lightside good, darkside bad." Whereas "we" see the galaxy in terms of the force, as the force has no lightside or darkside.
I can use a force push to crush somebody against a spike
Telekinesis is considered a neutral power worthy of consideration before use for exactly that reason.
and I can use force lightning to jump-start someone's heart and bring them back to life.
Ok, that there sounds extremely suspicious. Based on the way it's used, I'm doubting that it shares the electromagnetic properties that are used to identify things like actual "bolt from the blue" lightning, though it is some sort of energy release that travels through the air and can do a number on bodies. Before someone drags up Cade Skywalker, he's not using Palpatine's "throw another baby on the barbie" lightning, he's doing some sort of weird thing on his own. In his words from issue 16...
"I got this crazy healing ability. I can see the weak points in you like little broken red lines! I can see where you got wounded recently... I could heal that hurt. Pour the Force into the place where the red lines intersect. Or-- and here's a new
The entire purpose of this thread is to discuss "The Not So Black and White of Force Users", I'm just confused because at times it seems like the only defining feature here is a sign that says "we're totally not Jedi or Sith". If we can get the philosophies cleared up, maybe we'll get fewer people who use the side for guilt-free murdering.
Lightwarden, firstly you must realize that I am speaking from the specific philosphy that the fandom order created by the Grey Jedi fanclub in the EUC believes.
Secondly, I refuse to continue this "conversation" any longer as you continue to berate me, and the beliefs that I am simply using to show my point of view. If you insist on being aggressive about it, and outright attacking everything I say to make it "wrong" then I refuse. End of conversation for me.
I apologize if you think I was berating you, as I think I was trying to show to I wasn't getting worked up about these things by making remarks in an attempt at humor.
As to the beliefs thing, why wouldn't you test them under pressure? Consistency is a good thing.
LW, your remarks did not come across as humorous, but rather offensive. I was simply trying to answer your questions and you tore into the "beliefs" as if the only ones that are right in the world are yours.
Testing beliefs, or questioning them is one thing. You came out and pretty much said, "your beliefs are retarded. Kthanxbye." While I accept your apology, you really need to work on the presentation of your arguments, because this isn't the first time you've done something that I would have taken as offensive if you directed it at me.
I find myself agreeing with Rayson.
Firstly: great job Ktala on putting together this material.
Secondly: I think this is exactly the place to discuss these sort of viewpoints. The concept of a Grey Jedi or 'neutral' Force User is one that should be dissected, as it is open to misuse and abuse.
That was hardly what LW did. As far as I can see, his points are considered, logical and perfectly valid. You don't have to agree with him. You don't even have to answer him. But don't make an unfounded accusation like this.
Fourthly.....WJ rocks, I love that guy! That is all.
Trying to be more serious for a moment though, maybe you are right about this being the ideal location for such a discussion. I personally have never liked the idea of grey jedi (though I like greyjedi125 ), the issue I see does pretty much coincide with a lot of what LW has been saying.
The grey jedi philosophy seems to get twisted into something that isn't very jedi like, and seems to get used as a "I can use both sides of the force as I see fit, and be both villain and hero any time I want" card.
The only time I ever enjoyed reading grey jedi characters was in the old IBOP game, the way they was played there actually made sense.
Glad to see everyone busy discussing the topic. I decided to add a bit more, fuel to the fire. Here are the listing of Jedi Tenets, (Principles or rules) that the Jedi adopted along the way:
They are not mentioned in the Code, but should be known for all Jedi.
* The Jedi are the guardians of civilization, yet not allow civilization to destroy needlessly.
* A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for aggression or personal gain.
o A corollary of the Code was "A Jedi does not act for personal power."
* The lightsaber is the symbol of the members of the Jedi Order.
* Jedi do not marry (with some exceptions), in order to avoid attachment.However, in many periods of the Order's history, such as the era prior to Exar Kun and in Luke Skywalker's reformed Jedi Order, marriage was not forbidden.
* Jedi respect one another and all life forms.
* Jedi must put the needs of the community above the needs of individuals.
* A Jedi must protect the weak and defenseless from evil.
* Jedi must always cooperate in battle or crisis.
* Jedi must not have wants; self-reliance must be shown.
* Jedi are forbidden from ruling others, although by the end of the Republic there was some debate over whether or not this was part of the actual Code.
* A Jedi Master may not have more than one Padawan. This particular rule developed after the Old Sith Wars, as most ancient Masters such as Arca Jeth, Thon, Vodo-Siosk Baas and Krynda Draay did not have to abide by it. The Jedi Exile also trained many apprentices at the same time due to their Force-sensitivity and the galaxy's dire need for Jedi. However, one apprentice per master seemed to be the standard around 32 BBY. But due to the lack of numbers in Luke Skywalker's Academy, several padawans per master was forced, as seen in Jaden Korr and Rosh Penin training under Kyle Katarn
* While the Code did not mention a maximum age for taking Padawans, Jedi Master Simikarty wrote influential interpretations of the Code that inserted such limits; over time, his interpretations of the Code became conflated with the Code itself. In Revan's era, apprentices were taken from early childhood. After the end of the New Sith Wars, it became policy to take apprentices from infancy, which proved controversial with those outside the Order. Conversely, Nomi Sunrider started her training as an adult, as did the apprentices of the Jedi Exile and many of the New Jedi Order.
* A Jedi will not kill an unarmed opponent.
* A Jedi will not take revenge.
* A Jedi does not cling to the past.
* The Jedi do not believe in killing their prisoners.
hehehe.. Have fun!
A Jedi Master may not have more than one Padawan. This particular rule developed after the Old Sith Wars, as most ancient Masters such as Arca Jeth, Thon, Vodo-Siosk Baas and Krynda Draay did not have to abide by it. The Jedi Exile also trained many apprentices at the same time due to their Force-sensitivity and the galaxy's dire need for Jedi. However, one apprentice per master seemed to be the standard around 32 BBY. But due to the lack of numbers in Luke Skywalker's Academy, several padawans per master was forced, as seen in Jaden Korr and Rosh Penin training under Kyle Katarn.
As it is, the rule of one padawan per master was set in stone by 32 BBY:
Yoda: An apprentice you have, Qui-Gon. Impossible to take on a second.
Mace Windu: The Code forbids it.
Aside to the audience: The main reason the ancients got away with stuff that the Jedi of the late era didn't was fundamentally because of Dark Horse EU discontinuities between the two sets of movies. Multiple apprentices for one master was fundamentally a Dark Horse innovation when telling the stories of the ancient Jedi.
LW wasen't trying to insult you, and in reading some of what you tried to explain, it made it look like you have next to no real knowledge of The Force.
Btw, "Templar" is a plural word, like Jedi or Samurai, you don't pronounce it "Templars", that's kinda retarded spelling.
Also, I'm new here. Hi!
What a way to start off with an intro...
I'll read more deeply into the discussion though...
If I may interject...
When I first heard about the idea of the Gray Jedi and such, I found that it seemed to have become a really popular fad and sort of a fashionable novelty to think of the Force as neither Evil nor Good, and that those who disregarded both sides and stayed in the middle became all-powerful.
So, everyone jumped on the bandwagon and started making characters that were like, "My character is Grand Lord Nelson. He found long ago that the Light side and Dark side are a lie, and now he has tapped into powers beyond anyone's comprehension..."
If that kind of thing were true, the Sith would have figured that out long ago and utilized it to achieve their goals.
Also, that type of character is both idiotic and pompous.
But that's beside the point.
The school of thought that the Jedi follow is, at it's core, correct. The Jedi Order had existed for 25,000 years.
That's about five times or more what any of our most insightful schools have ever existed here on Earth.
You can't have a particular curriculum that get's studied, disciplined and perceived for that many millennia and have it turn out to be completely wrong. It seems a tad redundant.
Consider this theory:
?The Force cannot be split into light and dark. To truly understand it, one must utilize the greater aspects of both to achieve greater knowledge."
Gaining Omnipotent power within the Force has nothing to do with using both the light side and dark side together, or failing to acknowledge that the Force has a light and dark side.
The Force is the manifestation of thoughts and feelings in action.
Just like a neutrality of thought, you are left with indecision, or you cannot completely align to either one ideal or the other, and thus never truly realize the potential of your actions.
In that manner the Force is much like this. If you stay in between and choose to align neither to the light side or the dark side, you create a limitation on your potential, and thus cannot truly realize your power within the Force.
That is why those who have chosen to arbor the ideal of being "Grey" in the Force are actually impeding their own power and have thus rendered themselves weaklings.
You choose either light or dark. Live in between, and you will only stand on the edge of an horizon, never knowing what truly lies beyond.
This is the true nature of the Force.
?There are Jedi that regard the Force as one whole.?
It is a whole, but it moves in a circle, and even within this circle chaos and peace swirl together at intersections to bind the Force together. But, to realize true understanding to the Force, you must merge with it at either its light or dark side. Stay within the twilight, and you bind yourself to a more baser realm within the existence of the Force.
After a lot of thought, I came to that conclusion, and though It may be right, it may also be wrong.
Heh, If you think about it, it's like coming to a road and deciding that you have to either cross it, or don't
If you just sit there forever though, not crossing the road, but not completely ruling out your intention to cross it, you will never reach your destination on the other side. Your goal.
That Force is like that, you can choose to be Light, or you can choose to be Dark.
Saying in the middle lends flexibility, but your power will be forever impeded, because you cannot make a decision, you are stuck in between.
If the goal is omnipotence or understanding the Force, you won't reach it just standing there, you have to take a step.
You know, after browsing the Gray Jedi article, I'm starting to realize something...
The Gray Jedi believed in balance, not only in the Force, but in every other aspect of the galaxy as well. Just like Jedi, they wielded lightsabers and used both light and dark sides of the Force. They believed that there was no light side or dark side to the force. The believed there was just the force and that to use both light and dark powers was the basis for true balance in yourself.
Now to poke some other points brought up.
In the past, there was group within the Jedi Order that held a special calling. Their primary objectives were to uncover hidden and obscure threats to the galaxy, such as powerful criminal syndicates, murder, corruption and conspiracy against the Republic. They also investigated threats involving he darkside, and crimes against the Jedi. The usually worked in secrecy, often alone, and undercover, infiltrating organizations, and would not hesitate to use guile, deception or even brute force in addition to detective skills to achieve his or her goal.
Now remembering that the Jedi held many strict tenets, and rules against certain things, but in order for certain investigations to be done, that Jedi would most certainly have to break many of the rules of the Jedi tenets, in order to get the job done. Jedi for the most part lived very sheltered lives. It took a very special Jedi to handle this type of work. You would not be considered a normal Jedi. A little darker perhaps, having learned the truths that the Council tended to hide from the general Jedi populace. You cant crawl around within the underbelly of the order, without becoming a bit, 'dirty', or' tainted', if you will. These Jedi understood the light and dark, but they also understood that if something needed to be done, to stop a greater evil or threat, then it was up to them to do what was necessary. Almost all of these.."Shadows" tended to be Grey.
Aside from the usual conspiracy theory stuff, what exactly are you saying here?
Are these the tenets you're speaking of?
Are the Jedi secretly conducting controlled breeding experiments in hidden chambers in a mad effort to isolate bloodlines and create their own "Chosen One" to fulfill the "Prophecy" and allow the Jedi to rise to their rightful seat of power and rule over lesser beings who lack the moral clarity to run their own lives?
Not disagreeing with your overall message, but bloodlines can't be manipulated to create beings with high Midi-chlorian counts. The Force tends to manifest in individuals randomly, an example being seen with Dorsk 81 and his clones which were not Force-Sensitive despite being carbon-copies of himself.
You could have two extremely Force-Sensitive people get together, and they're child could possibly not have anywhere near their Midi-chlorian count, or just not be Force-Sensitive at all.
Naw. Trying to use Force Lightning to jump-start someone else?s heart back to life would only reduce it to a blackened, shriveled husk - even If you only used a little.
As LightWarden surmised, Force Lightning does not kill opponents via electrocution; it actually works somewhat backwards from that.
Force Lightning kills a person by manifesting corrupted Dark side energy that forms into tendrils of light and actually feeds off of the life energies of another being, siphoning it off until the victim is dead.
So using it to Jump-start a heart would actually just make matters worse, as it would only worsen the patient's condition.
How many years of Jedi School did you have to repeat?