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RPR Archive ***** The Not So Black and White of Force Users ****

Discussion in 'Role Playing Resource Archive' started by Ktala, May 22, 2008.

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  1. SaddhaQinntara Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2008
    Hmm, sorry, I meant to say "This is the true nature of the Force, in my opinion." lol.
  2. SaddhaQinntara Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2008
    And I meant to say, "Staying" there. Sorry. :p
  3. DarthXan318 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2002
    star 6
    Psst - use the Edit button. ;)

    Actually, so far in canon, Force sensitivity is passed down through the generations - the Skywalker family being the main example.
  4. JohnHunter Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2006
    star 3
  5. JohnHunter Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2006
    star 3
    I can learn alot from this.
  6. SaddhaQinntara Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2008
    Yeah, sorry about that. By the time I had reread it I couldn't use the Edit function. :oops: :p

    You don't say? Yes, I do remember something about the new authors making the Skywalker family the Dynastic Rulers of the Jedi Order. Although, between that and then killing off Mara Jade, I wouldn't think that they truly know much about the Force or Jedi.

    I think earlier on it was almost established that Force-Sensitivity through genetic heritage was allot more random than it appeared.

    You know, I may just have to look more into that though. Perhaps we could have an article dedicated to that study here in the future. :p
  7. SaddhaQinntara Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2008
    Hmm, what did you think of my treatise on the Force though, did I make any sense at all? :p
  8. NickLitYouAFlame Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 27, 2007
    star 5
    You totally just did it again.

    Edit: You see, after you post something, this particular board gives 90 minutes to go back and change anything you need or want to.

    Edit2: To the right of the post reply button, is a button called Edit Post, as long as it is yours.

    Edit3: As you can see, rather than posting four messages in a row, I used the Edit button to confine them to one singular post. So, rather than post over and over, try this method, lest you be accused of Double-Posting, or even spamming.
  9. SaddhaQinntara Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2008
    I'll keep that in mind. Thanks. :p

    Edit: How nifty. [face_mischief]
  10. LightWarden Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2001
    star 4
    Seven of the past ten posts have been yours. Calm down. Repeatedly posting asking people to read your posts only serves to annoy.

    Not disagreeing with your overall message, but bloodlines can't be manipulated to create beings with high Midi-chlorian counts. The Force tends to manifest in individuals randomly, an example being seen with Dorsk 81 and his clones which were not Force-Sensitive despite being carbon-copies of himself.

    You could have two extremely Force-Sensitive people get together, and they're child could possibly not have anywhere near their Midi-chlorian count, or just not be Force-Sensitive at all.


    Sort of. The Force is something of a crapshoot, but statistically, two Force-sensitive parents have a pretty good chance of producing a Force sensitive child (hence why we have things such as the "Skywalker bloodline", the "Sunrider bloodline", and the "Halcyon bloodline"). It is by no means a guarantee, as demonstrated by Tigris. Though if laws of heredity still apply in this world, statistically speaking, two parents who are at the "top of the charts" in terms of Force power will have a fairly high likelihood of having a child who is "weaker" in the Force (I'd like to take this moment to say: **** midichlorians, for turning mysticism into DBZ). Basically, it's possible, but the amount of time and generations and defects you'd incur means that you'd be a serious jerk for doing so, which is why the whole thing is a joke (it's also why Plaugeis took the easy way out and just stuffed power into Anakin when creating him, according to the New Essential Chronology. Though why he chose Tatooine remains a mystery to me to this day. Perhaps it was only a temporary measure, until Sidious pulled off his coup and threw a spanner in the works).

    The school of thought that the Jedi follow is, at it's core, correct. The Jedi Order had existed for 25,000 years.
    That's about five times or more what any of our most insightful schools have ever existed here on Earth.
    You can't have a particular curriculum that get's studied, disciplined and perceived for that many millennia and have it turn out to be completely wrong. It seems a tad redundant.


    Just because something works, doesn't mean you're correct. It's like assuming that your computer is powered by little people who are summoned each time you press a button. Your computer may continue working, but it doesn't mean that your view of things is true. Not that I think the Jedi are wrong, but this isn't something you can use to prove that they're correct (though you can show that it has worked, and conjecture that they're probably doing *something* right).

    ?There are Jedi that regard the Force as one whole.?

    It is a whole, but it moves in a circle, and even within this circle chaos and peace swirl together at intersections to bind the Force together. But, to realize true understanding to the Force, you must merge with it at either its light or dark side. Stay within the twilight, and you bind yourself to a more baser realm within the existence of the Force.


    I'd avoid the pointless analogies until you've already got a firm position and are using analogies to help people understand your point of view (and you've explicitly stated that you're not entirely sure of yourself). Otherwise it's like saying "Gravity pulls things down. Therefore, the natural way of all things is down and that's why everyone on top should give their things to those on the bottom."

    Anyways, your conjecture about there being power in picking a side probably requires some sort of evidence/examples to elevate this claim above a mere thought experiment. I suppose you could use the video games, as KotOR had a specific mechanical system wherein your alignment determined the cost of powers, where leaning towards one side made its powers cheaper (I don't remember if it was more effective, though if it was, it might be a decent start for a claim), while doing the reverse for the other (and going totally to o
  11. SaddhaQinntara Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2008
  12. NickLitYouAFlame Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 27, 2007
    star 5
  13. SaddhaQinntara Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2008
    Hey, blame the computer not me. :p

    Or have I forgotten that computers never make mistakes? o_O

    You should get into the discussion btw, Nick. :)
  14. LightWarden Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2001
    star 4
    First thing's first: Incessant flattery... don't do it.

    try imagining a school that has been in existence for the same length of time that we went from being furry hominids to being able to travel into space - that's how long that school has been developing and expanding in thought. Seriously, try to fathom it. Do you have it?
    That's immense. That's why I said it's a tad redundant for it to be completely wrong. It's also a tad presumptuous for the Jedi of the NJO to discard it's teaching aside and "suddenly realize that using both sides of the Force is the way to true power and understanding".


    Ok, let's break this down.

    1) Everyone's got a theory, and a few of them have book deals. This whole thing is a clusterfrag caused by contradicting authors with their own various ideas on what happened/what should, which is why the NJO went from "light side do-gooders" to "Potentium do-gooders" to "light side, but let's step back a bit" within the space of about 25 years of in-universe time. In its defense, they're trying to rebuild the Jedi Order after the Empire did its damndest to stomp it out, so it's wild guesswork that results in revisions whenever something new is publishe... er... unearthed (After Episode III comes out... R2-D2: Hey Luke, for the past fifty years I've been carrying around a hologram of your father choking your mother to death. Now's as good a time as any to show it to you!).

    2) Canonically, the Star Wars Universe has some of the worst engineers known to civilization.
    [image=http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/2/20/EbonhawkSW.jpg] [image=http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/d/dc/Melfal.jpg]
    4000 years of innovation, right here. (Which, incidentally, is the time it took for us to go from the Bronze age to whatever the heck we're in now). So, I'm not exactly sure if you can make the argument that time and development flow the same way there that they do here.

    3) I'm not sure how much the Jedi Order has changed. While I know they've changed in their roles in the galaxy, their beliefs do not seem to have changed an incredible amount. This may be proof that they've been tested again and again and stood strong all these years. Or it may be proof that they are not tested enough, as I've got a quote from the Power of the Jedi book on the subject of the Potentium Heresy.. "being a Jedi is not about exploring the limits of the Force, but about using what is already known to protect peace and justice. Jedi students should concentrate on learning how to use the Force, and leave careful exploration to the Jedi Masters". Some might use this as evidence that the Jedi are incapable of changing their ways because the only people who examine their philosophies intently are the ones who have attuned themselves to it, and and are thus blinded by it. Given the fact that they told Leor Hal and his disciples to leave the Order, you might say that there's not much room for debate on some areas. This could be seen as either the Jedi Order repressing any independent thought so that the truth wouldn't come out and undermine their power base, or the fact that Potentium users tend to do extremely stupid things and fall with alarming regularity.

    4) I never said it was wrong, I simply said that its sheer age is by no means a way to assume that the Jedi view on the correct or incorrect. It is probably internally consistent if it has been tested all these millenia, but there's not really a way to prove that they are right about some fundamental intangible thing in the universe that may be altered by a person's state of mind. You could say something like "it's strange for the New Jedi Order to discard a philosophy that has worked for several thousand years", but you can't really make any claims about the validity of the philosophy (unless you know of some sort of test that can irrefutably prove that there is or isn't a Light Side and a Dark Side). Furthermore, even if they were wrong and the Force really didn't care, they could still have gone on doing the s
  15. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    Anyways, your conjecture about there being power in picking a side probably requires some sort of evidence/examples to elevate this claim above a mere thought experiment. I suppose you could use the video games, as KotOR had a specific mechanical system wherein your alignment determined the cost of powers, where leaning towards one side made its powers cheaper (I don't remember if it was more effective, though if it was, it might be a decent start for a claim), while doing the reverse for the other (and going totally to one side blocked off the powers for the other). Meanwhile, in Jedi Outcast, Kyle could use "light" and "dark" powers, but there didn't seem to be any changes in cost/power (does this mean he's in the middle of the alignment scheme?).

    Meh, the increase in powers during video games are designed primarily to grant a sense of advancement and progress as you complete missions, not because they represent anything about the philosophy of the system or how it actually works. At best they'd be a low grade of canon for this exercise, IMHHO.

    There does seem to be some sort of indicator that emotions may have some effect on strength/presence, as we can watch RotJ and see Luke flip out and start beating back one of the most powerful men in the galaxy after said man threatens his sister (though Palpatine may have had some hand in this thing, he seemed to have some degree of proficiency in a weird Sith form of Battle Meditation, according to the Thrawn trilogy). Similarly, you could argue that there's some evidence where calmness and serenity seem to lend some degree of strength, as Yoda and other masters seem to do best when they're completely calm. Then again, Dooku seemed to be pretty relaxed during most of his fights, so if he was calling on the Dark Side, it doesn't seem like he had to be in a surge of passion. Of course, you could argue that both of these things are intrinsic to the user and not any indicator that there's a light or dark side, but rather that being calm allows you to make intelligent decisions while being enraged allows you to bring everything to bear on one target or something.

    Not sure if I'm helping or hindering the debate, but if we go back to the movies the development of emotion as a gateway to the Light or Dark Side seems to have principally come from Yoda in ESB first. Obi-Wan Kenobi doesn't talk about particular emotional states powering the Force; he only goes as far as:-

    Obi-Wan: The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, it penetrates us, it binds the galaxy together.

    Obi-Wan: Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him.
    Luke: You mean it controls your actions?
    Obi-Wan: Partially. But it also obeys your demands.

    Obi-Wan: I suggest you try it again, Luke. But this time let go your conscious self, and act on instinct.

    Obi-Wan: Stretch out with your feelings!

    The only reference we get to the Dark Side of the Force in that context is how Obi-Wan speaks of Vader as being "seduced" by it.

    As I said, it's Yoda who talks about emotions in relation to the Force:

    Yoda: Yes, yes! A Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware of the Dark Side. Anger, fear, aggression, the Dark Side of the Force are they -- quick to join in a fight. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will -- as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice ...
    Luke: ... Vader. Is the Dark Side stronger?
    Yoda: No! No. Quicker. Easier. More seductive.
    Luke: But how am I to know the good side from the bad?
    Yoda: You will know when you are calm, at peace, passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defence -- never for attack.

    (At which point you can raise the issue that in just about every lightsaber duel in the movie, it's a Jedi who ignites his lightsaber first, but oh well...)

    From these I think it's somewhat clear that emotions are only gatekee
  16. LightWarden Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2001
    star 4
    Meh, the increase in powers during video games are designed primarily to grant a sense of advancement and progress as you complete missions, not because they represent anything about the philosophy of the system or how it actually works. At best they'd be a low grade of canon for this exercise, IMHHO.

    Never said it was, it was just the closest thing I could think of to something where picking a side had some measurable effect, since there isn't anything else I can think of.

    (At which point you can raise the issue that in just about every lightsaber duel in the movie, it's a Jedi who ignites his lightsaber first, but oh well...)

    I'd cut them some slack given that it's their primary means of defense against nearly every weapon in the galaxy. If they lit the saber and jumped their opponent, then we'd have a problem.

    From these I think it's somewhat clear that emotions are only gatekeepers to the different sides of the Force -- they don't power the Light or Dark Side. IMHHO Yoda seems to be suggesting that calm allows for better discernment between that body of techniques and applications that are the province of the Light Side, while anger, fear and aggression make it that much harder to resist those that lead one down the path of the Dark, but they don't power it.

    Not disagreeing, there just seemed to be some differences between what we see in the movies, and the conjecture put forth in the opening post... "They believed that mastery of their passions gave them strength the Jedi lacked. Such emotions seemed to increase the strength and abilities of a user of the dark side, providing a path towards personal power and the destruction or control of all opposition."

    The wording kind of implies that a surge of emotion is better than controlled emotions, so there may need to be clarification if we're to use this stuff for the basis of an argument.

    Though when Obi-Wan said "stretch out with your feelings", I think he meant something that wasn't thought, not stretch out with your emotions. I think we can all agree that Jedi are ideally supposed to be serene and at peace when using the Force, though whether it means you can't use the Light Side without it or you make very un-Jedi decisions without it is up for discussion.
  17. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    Not disagreeing, there just seemed to be some differences between what we see in the movies, and the conjecture put forth in the opening post... "They believed that mastery of their passions gave them strength the Jedi lacked. Such emotions seemed to increase the strength and abilities of a user of the dark side, providing a path towards personal power and the destruction or control of all opposition."

    The wording kind of implies that a surge of emotion is better than controlled emotions, so there may need to be clarification if we're to use this stuff for the basis of an argument.


    If one goes by Stover's ROTS and then Lucerno's "Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader" I think there's a distinct misconception about how the Dark Side worked.

    In the ROTS novel, after Anakin's done his flip-flop to the Dark Side, Palpatine is teaching him a Sith technique which is described as "the first key to the power of the Sith" -- and that technique is principally cold detachment from one's emotions, not wallowing in them. In Lucerno's novel, Palpatine is musing about how Vader has to get past his preoccupations with the Jedi before he can really begin his Sith training, which again suggests getting past the base emotions. And there are other sources that suggest real keys to Sith power don't include much emotion at all.

    As has been pointed out, the novels are such a mishmash of conflicting ideas it's hard to draw any consistency of philosophy from any two of them, but these two seem to support the idea that emotion doesn't give you access to the full power of the Force. Emotion is only a guidepost. After all, it's Palpatine who muses (in this case, I think, telling the truth) that the Sith and Jedi are alike in almost every way...including disposing with emotion since it's only a gateway and eventually a positive impediment to effective Force use.

    Though when Obi-Wan said "stretch out with your feelings", I think he meant something that wasn't thought, not stretch out with your emotions. I think we can all agree that Jedi are ideally supposed to be serene and at peace when using the Force, though whether it means you can't use the Light Side without it or you make very un-Jedi decisions without it is up for discussion.

    Agreed. The context of the conversation was that Luke had to act on his instincts, so Ben wasn't talking about emotion per se.
  18. SaddhaQinntara Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2008
    Wow, very, very interesting indeed. And LightWarden, If I happen to say that your very smart, it's because I mean it. I don't often say things that I don't mean.
    Anyway, you've done a fantastic job thus far of holding a really intelligent conversation with me - your going straight for the issues and hitting them the way they need to be hit.
    Some people aren't intelligent enough, or know they aren't and start avoiding questions or attach themselves to irrelevant things like grammical errors in the other guy's post and such.
    So your doing a fine job. :)

    1) Everyone's got a theory, and a few of them have book deals. This whole thing is a clusterfrag caused by contradicting authors with their own various ideas on what happened/what should, which is why the NJO went from "light side do-gooders" to "Potentium do-gooders" to "light side, but let's step back a bit" within the space of about 25 years of in-universe time. In its defense, they're trying to rebuild the Jedi Order after the Empire did its damndest to stomp it out, so it's wild guesswork that results in revisions whenever something new is publishe... er... unearthed (After Episode III comes out... R2-D2: Hey Luke, for the past fifty years I've been carrying around a hologram of your father choking your mother to death. Now's as good a time as any to show it to you!).

    LOL! No kidding! I thought it was so silly to see R2 finally show Luke that Hologram when he could have told him so much sooner.
    One other thing I forgot to mention in my other post is that you mentioned how stupid it was that Midi-chlorians basically turned Star Wars into DBZ.
    I laughed when I read that because one of my best friends said the same thing when we talked about TPM once.
    To quote: "It's so frickin' stupid. Now they've just turned Star Wars into DBZ. I'm surprised Obi-Wan and Qui-gon didn't read Anakin's blood-sample on a Scouter!"
    [face_laugh]

    Yeah really, like we didn't see Obi-Wan exclaim, "One-thousand...no two-thousand!...Oh no, It's higher than Master Yoda's! THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE!!!"
    But seriously, it was a good thing to point out.
    We can definitely tell that technological progression in Star Wars is a little slow for some reason.
    When I described the time span for the Jedi Order's existence before the Great Purge and compared it to our evolution from Monkey-related creatures to present day Human beings, I did so because that time span is amazing.
    If you really think about it, it would be almost impossible for a major religion like that to not have any of it's views altered significantly at any time during it's existence If they weren't true in some way or form. But as you said, they must have done something right to be around like that for that long.

    3) I'm not sure how much the Jedi Order has changed. While I know they've changed in their roles in the galaxy, their beliefs do not seem to have changed an incredible amount. This may be proof that they've been tested again and again and stood strong all these years. Or it may be proof that they are not tested enough, as I've got a quote from the Power of the Jedi book on the subject of the Potentium Heresy.. "being a Jedi is not about exploring the limits of the Force, but about using what is already known to protect peace and justice. Jedi students should concentrate on learning how to use the Force, and leave careful exploration to the Jedi Masters". Some might use this as evidence that the Jedi are incapable of changing their ways because the only people who examine their philosophies intently are the ones who have attuned themselves to it, and and are thus blinded by it. Given the fact that they told Leor Hal and his disciples to leave the Order, you might say that there's not much room for debate on some areas. This could be seen as either the Jedi Order repressing any independent thought so that the truth wouldn't come out and undermine their power base, or the fact that Potentium users tend to do extremely stupid things and fall with alarming regularity.

    The Jedi Order has chang
  19. Sith-I-5 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2002
    star 5
    Very interesting article, Ktala, and thank you to all subsequent contributors for all the differing points and angles.

    SaddhaQinntara, welcome to the Roleplaying Forum; hope you enjoy your time with us.

    Having a Force-using main character who is not any shade of jedi, I appreciate the existence of an article that does not limit itself to just Lightsided Jedi and the red lightsabre brigade (Sith).
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