Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by CoolyFett, Oct 1, 2012.
To be fair, the above can be considered a "he said it first" *OR* a comparative argument.
I think you misunderstand kenobifan1999. No one here is calling Obi-Wan a coward. Although the initial post was rather ambiguous, Lars_Muul did later clarify:
And the original quote said:
I think what went through Anakin's mind was thoughts of revenge, of finishing what began 19 years earlier when Obi-Wan, the coward, left him to die in torment.
Lars_Muul basically was saying that Anakin would have considered Obi-Wan a coward for leaving him to burn those 19 years earlier but Lars_Muul himself never said that he agreed with what he interpreted to be Anakin's view.
when it comes to obi wan, yes. i didnt see you hesitate to jump into the conversation when i called anakin a coward. so you are no different
Speak for yourself. I finished that one in 1980 so I'm not interested in "playing."
Let's watch the snippy comments, people. Move it along.
I think the one person in the saga that really did the most to help Anakin convert to the dark side is Palpatine.
Palpatine had been working on this with Anakin since they came back from Naboo. Palpatine had told Anakin that he would "watch your career with great interest". Even at this point Palpatine had looked upon Anakin as his future Sith apprentice.
He allowed Anakin to be trained by the Jedi, perhaps because he didn't want to have to train him himself; but all the while filling Anakins mind with rebellious thoughts, bad-mouthing the Jedi, criticizing their apparent motives and encouraging his feelings of envy and resentment. All Ob1, Yoda and the rest of the Jedi could do was to look on in bewilderment as they had no idea where Anakin's arrogance, haughtiness and rebellion came from.
There's the scene in Palpatines suite in AOTC where Palpatine confirms Anakin in his assumption that OB1 is holding him back which later figures in his rant to Padme after he slaughtered the Tuskens. It's not even hinted at, how often scenes like this in Palpatine's suite had been repeated throughout the 10+ years Anakin had lived in the Jedi Temple until he finally turned. One can only speculate that it was probably quite often.
Palpatine didn't "allow" Anakin to be trained by the Jedi. He wasn't really aware of Anakin, until the Battle of Naboo. By that time, the Jedi Council were already aware of Anakin and were ready to accept him into the Order.
It could be that they were too busy ignoring their own arrogance.
I beg to differ. Palpatine was ruthless and would literally do ANYTHING to get what he wanted. He wanted Anakin as his Sith apprentice after Anakin's performance in taking out the 'droid control ship; so if he wanted to begin his training himself he could have easily done so.
Hardly, Anakin's general obnoxiousness had everyone else beat by a mile.
I rather doubt. I think many fans have a tendency to view Palpatine - especially in the PT - as being capable of everything and manipulating everything. From what I have seen, a good deal of his success resulted from luck. And yet . . . many seemed to view him as invincible.
@DARTH-FURBABY, After the events of TPM with the attention of the Council placed squarely on Anakin, there is no way Palpatine could have taken Anakin away and trained him on his own. Even if Anakin had been rejected for Jedi training Obi-Wan would have still trained him illegitimately to fulfill his promise to Qui-Gon, and the Council would have kept an eye on someone of his power, Jedi or not.
Also Palpatine was not Supreme Chancellor of an entire galaxy and no longer had the time to fully train a Sith Apprentice which is one of the reasons he took on an experienced servant in the form of Dooku.
I dont really dont think Anakin was selfish he did it all for Padme and his children. With Palpatine talking about Plaguies powers of keeping those you love alive. But with the misunderstanding from Obi wan who had been hiding in Padmes ship. Anakin went Crazy.
I disagree. Padmé would never have wanted Anakin to do what he did in order to "save" her. He acted because he couldn't bear the thought of losing his family, but I think she would have much rather died than have had so many innocents killed for her sake. In that regard, I think Anakin was very selfish in that there was nothing he wouldn't do in order to keep her by his side. And when she refused to cooperate and buy into his vision (and it seemed as though she had "betrayed" him to Obi-Wan), he attacked her in a rage because he thought he had lost her to the Jedi.
I think he did not act selfish, he was under a lot of pressure from both Padme, Palpatine and the Jedi Council. In fact i also think the jedi council made the wrong choice about Anakin. And i'm sure Padme would have actet the same way as Anakin. Also i dont think Anakin was completly over his mother.
I agree that Anakin was under a lot of pressure from both Padmé, Palpatine, and the Jedi Council. I also think that the Jedi Council made the wrong choice about Anakin. And I agree that Anakin was not at all over what happened to his mother.
Regardless, that does not prevent his actions from being horrifically selfish in that he was willing to sacrifice the lives of so many in order to keep those close to him. Selfishness is lacking consideration for others and when Anakin decided that what he wanted was worth more than the lives of others, he made a choice that was immensely selfish and wrong.
I see the problem by killing younglings and all that butselfish is still not the rigth word. Lets say he was not thinking clear. And i'm sure when Darth Vader starts rembering his past he regrets it all.
I agree that he was not thinking clearly and likely came to regret his choices, but that doesn't take away from his selfishness, in my opinion.
In fact, I would say that "selfish" is precisely the right word because Anakin was putting his interests above the well-being of so many people. That he comes to regret it doesn't change that fact.
I really do see what you mean but killing those guys at Mustafar didn't hurt anybody except them selves.
If killing multiple innocent people, including children, in order to gain the power to save one person, isn't selfish, then I don't know what is.
The Jedi Council: they didn't really "get" Anakin, they had not dealt with a Knight of his background in over a thousand years and may not have dealt with one with his personality either. And IMO asking him to spy on Palpatine was a blind and monumentally stupid move, given that if they knew his personality, they should have been able to guess how he'd react--in fact, in the novelization, Obi-Wan did guess how he's react, and told Yoda and Mace that they were making a mistake. His warnings were ignored. I'd say the Jedi Council did pressure Anakin, but that does not mean that Anakin was any less self-centered.
And yes, Palpatine pressured Anakin. One thing that Anakin really needed in both AOTC and ROTS was enough discernment to recognize that Palpatine was doing nothing but blowing sunshine up his ass. But Anakin was hardly the only one who couldn't see through Palpatine. However, again, Palpatine pressuring Anakin does not make Anakin's actions any less selfish.
As far as Padme reacting the same way Anakin did--LOL wut? I'm pretty sure Padme proved on Mustafar that in no way did she want Anakin committing horrible deeds in her name.
Anakin wasn't over his mother--nope, not at all, and that fact definitely led to his later desperation to save Padme. However, his behavior was the epitome of selfishness regardless of how well anyone understands the reasoning behind it.
I did correct myself and said that killing younglings was a horrible choice. The hole Padme situation, i did not mean that Padme didnt wanted Anakin to kill for her but that if Padme had the choice of killing to save her loves life she would have killed
Padme fired a gun on Geonosis, but she wouldn't kill the innocent on Anakin's behalf.
I think she would have, if she was in Anakins place.
What are you basing this on?
No, I don't think she would have. Anakin admitted to this fact in AOTC when he and Obi-Wan argued in the Republic gunship.
I am basing his on what I felt and saw in the movie.