Saga The Obi Wan & Anakin Trilogy...what went wrong?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by CoolyFett, Oct 1, 2012.

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  1. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Still, Obi-Wan NEVER called Anakin a "pathetic life form."

    And I still wonder why Obi-Wan's putting Jar Jar in with the droids is never commented on. THAT is one scene is worthy of comment. As far as the novel goes, Qui-Gon wants Obi-Wan to put Jar Jar somewhere safe where he won't accidentally interfere with anything, but even there, it seems the choice is up to Obi-Wan. I find that, without further explanation, to be rather callous of Obi-Wan (even if prudent, and such is not made clear).

    I also think audiences always have to make certain assumptions and fill in certain blanks. A movie cannot display everything. Nuances - in facial expressions, vocal inflections and such have to convey such things and as such, elicit somewhat different reactions from the audience. Some are a bit "better" at seeing/hearing these subleties and others not (this is not a qualitative judgment).

    I see a twinkle, hear a hint of a laugh in that scene where others only see derision and scorn. I'm not saying I'm right and others are wrong; I am not saying that they are right and I am wrong. I do say if we discuss our viewpoints and are open to the possibility of being wrong, we may come to more of an agreement over what we've seen/heard and if this intent could have been better conveyed.
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  2. Brandon Rhea Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2004
    star 5
    It's very much suggested, which is what I was referencing. He's sensing "another pathetic life form" that Qui-Gon is going back for. That's a pretty bad omen for the Obi-Wan/Anakin friendship.

    Yeah, that didn't make much sense to me either. Though in terms of things that I don't think make sense in the prequels, that's a fairly minor one.

    I agree that audiences will always make certain assumptions and fill in certain blanks, but a good writer will work to ensure that there are as few instances of that as possible. In the prequels, there are far too many instances.

    That said, there's much less of them in TPM than in AOTC and ROTS. I don't particularly like the prequels, but, if I had to choose which one I thought was the best, I would say TPM by a pretty longshot.
    Yunners likes this.
  3. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I don't see that as a problem at all. In fact, one of my biggest issues with ANH was I felt that it was spoonfed to me. The "good guys" and "bad guys" were so blatantly one-dimensional and obvious that they were dressed as such, and the only characters with any nuance whatsoever, any underlying motivations that might not be so obvious on the surface, were Han and Leia. Bor-ing. Thankfully ROTJ added much more nuance to Anakin Skywalker's character and thus propelled me from casual fan to the hard-core fan that I am today.

    I disagree that a "good writer" will ensure that there are as few instances of leaving the audience to make assumptions as possible. I don't want everything thrown at me on screen, I want some of the story left to interpretation. After all, if there is no nuance and everything that we are supposed to understand about the story, is given to us directly on screen, what is there to discuss? Nothing--story happened, sing your praises to the choir or state how much you hated the story and move along. As there is nothing to the story other than what happened on screen, there is nothing to talk about.
  4. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    Was obiwan a jedi master after qui gon died?
  5. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    The truth is the line should be "your mother once thought as you do" because _ agree that was not ObiWan coming out of Luke, that was Padme.
  6. Brandon Rhea Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2004
    star 5
    That would be true if the originals were made second. We shouldn't be suggesting that the originals are wrong because the prequels contradicted them. The truth is that Obi-Wan should have tried to redeem Anakin. Instead, he arrived with the mindset that Anakin had to die, and he didn't try to redeem him. That's the fault of ROTS, not ROTJ.
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  7. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    He gets it from what Padme told him. Though he may have the Force, Anakin is not omniscient. In many ways he gets information the same way we all do.

    "It's over, Anakin!" This doesn't mean "I am going to kill you and I thought I'd do a little grandstanding about it." It means "I'm trying one more time to get you to back down." Obi-Wan may have come to Mustafar prepared to face the possibility of having to kill Anakin, but that doesn't mean he assumed it to be the only possible outcome.
  8. Brandon Rhea Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2004
    star 5
    That's completely wrong. Anakin could not have gotten the idea about Obi-Wan from Padme because she said nothing of the sort. Read the script or watch the scene again. The first time Padme mentions Obi-Wan on Mustafar is "Obi-Wan told me terrible things." That leads Anakin to say "Obi-Wan is trying to turn you against me." A few moments later, after Anakin was being nuts, Padme said "I don't believe what I'm hearing . . . Obi-Wan was right. You've changed." None of those things are positive.

    The only positive thing she says is that Obi-Wan cares about them. However, moments later, Anakin seeks Obi-Wan with his Superman pose at the top of the ship. Even Padme freaks out at that, because she knows what Obi-Wan is there for and knows that he completely undercut what she was trying to say to Anakin.

    What kind of things did Obi-Wan say to Anakin? Things like "You have allowed this Dark Lord to twist your mind until now . . . until now you have become the very thing you swore to destroy." Not that Anakin is confused or that he needs help, or that Obi-Wan is there to help him. But that he's a Sith Lord and that Obi-Wan will have to do what he must. It should also be pointed out that the first person to ignite their lightsaber was Obi-Wan, not Anakin.


    That's an assumption, an assumption clearly contradicted by what Obi-Wan says earlier. The first time Obi-Wan finds out Anakin has fallen to the dark side, he immediately jumps to the idea that Anakin has to die. He just can't bear the burden of having to do it himself. When he talks to Padme later, Obi-Wan wordlessly admits that he's going to kill Anakin. Not once did he say "No, he's my friend, I'm going to save him because he doesn't have to die."

    If things had gotten to the point where Obi-Wan had to change his mind and then decide to kill Anakin, that would've been fine. The issue isn't that the end result is Obi-Wan thinking Anakin has to die. It's that he never tried anything else. He decided immediately that Anakin had to die, and that contradicts the original trilogy.

    There's nothing wrong with admitting that this particular part of the plot was not written well. It doesn't have to negatively affect your enjoyment of the prequels if you can overlook it and justify it. Just don't pretend this part of the story was done as well as it could have been in accordance with the originals, something a prequel is inherently required to do.
  9. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Actually, she did, which makes it completely right. I'm not the one who needs to watch the scene again or read the script again.

    As I said, your assumption distorts the intent of Obi-Wan's Mustafar dialogue to a point where it does not fit his characterization. "It's over" is an attempt to get Anakin to back down, not otherwise needless out-of-character gloating. The same applies to Obi-Wan's dialogue on the landing platform. If he intends to kill Anakin and is incapable of considering any other outcome, why all the talk? Why not just attack?

    Didn't I hear someone say something about assumptions? He has come to the idea that Anakin may have to die, which is not the same thing as assuming that Anakin dying is the only possible outcome.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Oct 13, 2012
  10. Brandon Rhea Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2004
    star 5
    You say that, but you haven't proven it. Please do so.
  11. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    There's nothing wrong with admitting you don't understand Obi-Wan's characterization and forgot Padme's dialogue.

    It should be pointed out that the first person to attack was Anakin, not Obi-Wan.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Oct 13, 2012
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  12. Brandon Rhea Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2004
    star 5
    You have yet to prove anything, only trying to chip away at my post. Until you do so, I'm done with this conversation. Bye.
  13. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Follow your own advice. Read the script. It's in there.

    I'm eager to hear your explanation for "don't try it". What would be the point of such an utterance, if Obi-Wan just plans to kill Anakin regardless of what Anakin does in response? Does this mean "don't try it, because then I will have to kill you in a slightly different way than I originally planned"? You're rewriting the script into nonsense, but don't try to make that the fault of the film.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Oct 13, 2012
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  14. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 2
    People often argue that Obi-Wan is the aggressor because of that action, but personally I see no difference between Obi-Wan and a police officer who draws his gun when arresting an armed and dangerous suspect – it doesn’t mean that the police officer intend to kill the suspect, but that he is ready to take the necessary action if forced.

    Anakin has chosen to align himself with the Sith and Obi-Wan knows that as a Jedi it is his duty to destroy them; I think that in his mind it’s not specifically Anakin that has to die, but the Sith – Anakin just happens to have joined them and therefore he asks Yoda that he be allowed to go after Palpatine instead of Anakin.

    On another note I never interpreted Obi-Wan’s silence as either confirmation or denial. Rather I see it as him being torn between what he knows is his duty as a Jedi – to kill Anakin who is a Sith - and his personal feelings towards Anakin – who is his brother and friend and who he cannot kill. I think Padmé does as well or I doubt she would later claim that Obi-Wan cares for them.

    I think he did have a change of mind. I see the fact that he allows Padmé to speak with Anakin as proof that he did hope Anakin had not fallen completely. When it becomes clear to him that even Padmé cannot reason with him he reveals himself and witness Anakin choke his highly pregnant wife, which is where I think he decided that Anakin is truly gone and that he will “do what I must”.

    BUt it all comes down to personal interpretation of those scenes I guess. I do agree with you that the way RotS played out, Vader's words in RotJ doesn't really fit with how he experienced it.
    Valairy Scot likes this.
  15. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    "Obi-Wan once thought as you do."

    "He wants to help you."

    Where's the inconsistency between these statements? There isn't any.
  16. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    faults? All I said was it would be more of the truth if Vadet mentioned Padme in that scene. I don't see the story as two sagas, I see it as one in six parts. Each chapter focuses on certain relationship, but the ObiWan-Anakin relationship is 50 percent of the saga. The Luke-Vader relationship only is in 2 movies & Ep 1 is about Obiwan & QuiGon. Luke as a character has a relationship with Obiwan, but Obiwan & Anakin had some unfinished business. Let's not do the divided saga talk. Because the relationship that this thread focuses on spans 4 chapters of the six.
  17. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    Why did ObiWan lie about Anakins death to Luke? Why not tell Luke his da was an imperial agent under a different name. Yoda also kept it as a secret. Anakin was the only one actually honest with Luke the whole time.
  18. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    what was Vader thinking about when he makes that comment to Luke? It must have been about Palpatine & not the Dark side. Maybe he was thinking of Padme, but didn't want to mentions her to Luke?
  19. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Personally I have NO problem with Obi-Wan "lying" to Luke. I see it as the result of a man who has compartmentalized Anakin and Vader into two different men in his mind and one who truly believes Luke is not ready for the full revelation. Sure, he might have been wrong about Luke, but how many of us in real life shade truths to spare someone pain? (In this case, too, I think he was unconsciously sparing himself pain as well.)

    To me, it would be a "lie" if Luke directly asked if Vader was his father and Obi-Wan said no. From a certain point of view, Obi-Wan was telling the truth: Vader DID destroy the good man who was Anakin.

    I know many think Obi-Wan is a "big fat liar" for this and let's just say you won't change my mind on this and I doubt I'll change anyone's, either.
  20. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    Obi-Wan did try to reason with Anakin . . . right before their duel began. Unfortunately, he was angry at the time and his emotions affected his tone. I did notice that he had enough difficulty accepting the idea that Anakin led the destruction against the Jedi Temple before visiting Padme at her apartments.




    No, it didn't. Sorry. Then again, I am speaking from "my" point of view.
    Last edited by DRush76, Oct 17, 2012
  21. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Just like Obi-Wan! (Couldn't resist.)
  22. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Anakin wanted revenge. Obi wan is the reason that darth vader wears that all too famous robot suit and helmet. He got burned in the lava planet of Mustafar, during their duel, with their younger, more physically agile selves. Now, they meet again, at last. When anakin told the troops "i sense something, a presence i've not felt since", he was referring to when obi wan had the high ground and they fought in the volcano planet. That's why i love the prequels. It gives us an awesome backstory. Anakin wanted revenge for being turned into a half-man, half-machine. And also fighting one of the empire's enemies. Obi wan was a rebel alliance member. The rebels wanted to stop them from using the death star.

    I find it fascinating how the same anakin skywalker we see in the prequels, played by Hayden Christensen, is the same guy who did everything darth vader did- worked with all those lifeless imperial soldiers, was on the death star, met luke and leia, etc.. But him meeting his son Luke is awesome, especially since we know the face behind that mask. Same thing with obi-wan. 20 years before, they dueled. But, now Vader is a cyborg, he lost all his former agility and a lot of strength, obi wan is now an old man (he was about 40 in episode 3). So, their fight is way different than it was 20 years ago. And it's on a hallway this time. I never knew why obi wan died though. Why did he just stand there?

    Obi wan knew that anakin was darth vader in episode 3. He just didn't call him that because the audience only thinks of Vader as the cyborg samurai.
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  23. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    I don't know what star wars saga these other guys were watch but in the ANH dvd I have Obiwan lied to Luke. He murdered & betrade your father was a lie & a coward move. To Luke it seems that Vader & Anakin are two separate people, but I want to say Owen & Beru are liers as well. Yoda had the chance to make it right, but didn't until he was on his deathbed. Luke though Vader was his dads killer, when his dad was actually alive. Its no point of view issue for me, unless I was watching the wrong movie.
  24. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Considering that the other option would be to tell Luke, "Your father is alive, working as the Emperor's right-hand man, has killed many people, is indirectly responsible for your mother's death, and I need you to kill him because I don't think he can ever come back to the Light Side"--I think Obi-Wan took the better option. Telling Luke the unfiltered version of the truth would have given ROTJ a different outcome and might have sent Luke to the Dark Side himself. Yoda was right; Luke wasn't ready for that.
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  25. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    @jedimasterbac

    In fairness to Obi-Wan, he only says "Send me to kill the Emperor. I will not kill Anakin." after Yoda says "Destroy the Sith, we must." He knows that, when it comes down to it, he's going to have a hell of a time trying to kill Anakin and he might not be able to go through with it. Indeed, when he's finally confronted with the choice, he just can't do it. Then, he makes excuses as to why he can't go after Anakin when Yoda knows perfectly well that Obi-Wan is capable of finding him.

    Plus, in terms of Anakin's confrontation with Padmé, note that the way the scene proceeds is something like this:

    --Padmé has her back to the ship and is pleading with Anakin telling him that he's changed and to "Come back" and says she loves him.
    --Anakin sees Obi-Wan on the ship and becomes angry
    --He then steps away from Padmé and screams "Liar!" at her
    --She's initially confused and steps away from Anakin but when she sees Obi-Wan, she knows that Anakin's has jumped to conclusions and tries to deny them by saying "No."
    She doesn't freak out when she sees Obi-Wan, she freaks out when Anakin starts yelling at her and she realizes he's jumped to conclusions. She's trying to persuade him that he's wrong. Indeed, it is Anakin (of those three) who first says "you're with him, you brought him here to kill me!" even though Obi-Wan has said nothing at this point. Padmé was trying to convince Anakin to let them help him.
    --The first thing Obi-Wan says is "Let her go."

    --If anything, Obi-Wan's first scene shows that he hadn't completely given up on Anakin. Seeing Anakin choking Padmé would have been the perfect time to attack him, but he knows that's not what Padmé would want. And the fact that he even talks to Anakin at all and tries to make him see how his actions are driving away the people who love him is rather significant, I think.
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