Saga The Obi Wan & Anakin Trilogy...what went wrong?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by CoolyFett, Oct 1, 2012.

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  1. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    It's obviously about Obi-Wan, not Palpatine.
  2. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    I don't think it was the better option. I think it was an easier option for Obi-Wan to ensure that Luke would finish the job he had started on Mustafar. Even after Luke had learned the truth and confronted Obi-Wan, the latter still insisted that the former kill Anakin. And remember . . . when Luke stated that he couldn't kill his own father, Obi-Wan reacted with dismay. In his insistence that Luke kill Vader, he was not dividing the latter into two different personas.
  3. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    lol you ObViously DON'T understand a simple question.
  4. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 2
    The Anakin Obi-Wan knew and loved as a brother would never slaughter fellow Jedi and innocent, defenceless children, and he would certainly never choke the love of his life – especially not when she was pregnant with his child(ren) – so in Obi-Wan’s mind, Anakin was irrevocable lost to the Dark side: the good man who was Anakin had died and could never return, and all that remained was a ruthless Sith lord named Darth Vader, and Obi-Wan had no reason to believe that Vader would hesitate to kill Luke (unless Luke agreed to join him).

    I don’t see Obi-Wan bending of the truth (or lying if you will) as a cowardly – rather I would say it’s the most merciful thing to tell Luke at that time, because Luke had no concept whatsoever of the Force or of the Dark side – of how it corrupts a person. If Obi-Wan had told Luke the 'unfiltered version', as @anakinfansince1983 calls it, Luke would simply come to know his father as an evil person, which is an extremely heavy burden, and may even have discouraged him from trying to redeem Vader. At least this way, Luke was left in no doubt that his father was a good man.

    I also think that Obi-Wan told Luke what he did because he wanted to protect Luke until he had completed his training and was ready to carry that burden (and that he and Yoda did not plan on Luke facing Vader until then). Both Obi-Wan and Yoda knew that when Luke learned the truth about Vader he would feel compelled to seek him out, and if Luke was not ready (i.e. not a fully trained Jedi) they believed there could be only two very bad outcomes: either Luke would be killed or Luke would join his father and become a Sith (which would be even more disastrous).

    No, Obi-Wan insisted that Luke kill Vader, and of course he did: Vader was a Sith and the Sith had to be destroyed - if Luke was ever going to defeat the Emperor, he first had to get past Vader. Obi-Wan had lost faith that Anakin could ever return from the Dark side – in his mind Anakin had been destroyed – and believed that if Luke hesitated to kill Vader in battle then Vader would simply kill Luke.
    kainee, Valairy Scot and Arawn_Fenn like this.
  5. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    If Obi-Wan is lying to Luke then why give Vader as his fathers killer?
    Obi-Wan doesn't know how Luke would react to that, for all he knew Luke could set out on a mission of revenge and want to kill Vader in hate.
    That is something that Obi-Wan doesn't want, first as Luke could get himself killed and second a Jedi should not kill in revenge.
    The better option would be for Obi-Wan to say that Luke's father was killed by the Empire along with the last remaining Jedi, except himself of course.
    Luke could still be angry but he doesn't have a specific person to hunt down now.
    Luke dislikes the empire and wants to fight it and once fully trained he could see the need to take Vader out even without his personal score to settle.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
    Last edited by Samuel Vimes, Oct 21, 2012
  6. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    After watching Attack of the Clones, Revenge of the Sith & A New Hope, I think it should have been Obi Wan who died on Naboo & not Qui Gon. Anakin would have never turned if Quigon was his master jedi.
  7. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    "in Obi-Wan's mind" is the key phrase here. Obi-Wan's (imho naive) view of Anakin's goodness was (unfortunately, as it turned out) partially based on ignorance of two things that the supposedly 'good Anakin' (not 'evil Vader') did in the PT: one, the Tusken slaughter, and two, putting it mildly, the 'way' that Dooku met his end (I'm phrasing it that way on purpose lest I offend some posters here).
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Oct 21, 2012
  8. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 2
    I think Obi-Wan was counting on the fact that since Luke had never known his father, and therefore never bonded with him the way parents and children normally do, the hurt of knowing who had killed his father would not be deep enough to instil hatred or a desire for revenge (nor does Luke’s reaction to the revelation indicate this in my opinion). I think the anger Luke harbours towards Vader is based on Vader robbing Luke of the opportunity of having a father as he grew up and experiencing a father-son relationship, but I don’t see it as a deep anger.

    Maybe it would have been better to say that the Empire killed his father, but I’m thinking that Luke would soon learn that Vader was responsible for hunting down the Jedi, and being an intelligent man, I’m sure Luke would suspect that Vader also had a hand in killing his father, and would have demanded the truth of either Obi-Wan or Yoda...
  9. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    While neither of us knows for sure, Sids would have found SOME way, SOME thing to turn Anakin regardless of Anakin's master. He may indeed have had a harder time doing so had Qui-Gon lived, but Qui-Gon was not perfect and infallible - he would have made some mistakes with Anakin. Who knows - Qui-Gon may have been harsh to Anakin, inadvertently or not, if he was lost in grief over Obi-Wan's death, had not both lived.

    I'm sure he'd would have gone more "master" than "pseudo-dad" as Anakin adapted to the Temple.

    In short, you may be right. You may be wrong. We'll never know.

    Can we avoid the definite pronouncements: the "would have never" phrasing?
  10. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I don't think either of those events made Anakin a "bad" person so I still think Obi-Wan was telling the truth about Anakin being a "good" man. And I'm saying that even as the Dooku execution bothered me enough that I avoid watching it, IOW, it bothered me far more than the Tusken slaughter did. Anakin certainly could have refused to kill Dooku, but I still see Palpatine playing him there (how easy would it be to refuse the Chancellor's directive, really?) and therefore I see the situation differently from the attack on Obi-Wan on Mustafar or the killings he committed as Vader in the OT--completely of his own volition, no questioning, no remorse.

    As far as whether Qui-Gon might have kept Anakin from the Dark Side--that's a debate that has been going on since TPM and will probably never be settled, but I'd say it depends on the trust level that Qui-Gon was able to forge with Anakin and whether Palpatine would be able to supersede that; which as Valairy said, maybe, and maybe not.
    kainee and Yunners like this.
  11. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    This is simply a good case of Obi-Wan's absolutism getting the best of him. This is a flaw he was never able to overcome. I can only wonder if he had ever considered the possibility that Luke would learn the truth, after he had killed Anakin.
    Last edited by DRush76, Oct 21, 2012
  12. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 2
    I don't think it had anything to do with absolutism, but rather of question of Obi-Wan loosing hope. Considering he witnessed Anakin kill defenceless children and choke his heavily pregnant wife – the love of his life – it is not unreasonable for him to draw the conclusion that Anakin was truly gone for good - especially when not even Padmé could reason with him. Also, from the moment Anakin became Vader till the very moment he turned on the Emporer there was nothing in his actions that indicated he still had a shred of goodnees left in him, so I don't find it strange that Obi-Wan lost hope in Anakin returning to the Light. And I think that even if he deep down believed Padmé’s words that there was still good in Anakin, I very much doubt he would have wanted to risk Luke dying in a failed attempt to redeem his father - unlike us, neither Obi-Wan or Yoda had the luxery of knowing that it was in fact possible for Anakin to return from the Dark side with the aid of his son.

    I never got the impression that Obi-Wan (and Yoda) intended to withhold the truth from Luke indefinitely. In ROTJ, when Luke asks Yoda whether it is unfortunate that he knows the truth about Vader, the way in which Yoda replies: “No. Unfortunate that you rushed to face him... that incomplete was your training. Not ready for the burden were you.” Clearly indicates to me, that what was unfortunate was Luke learning the truth before being ready to carry that burden; that when Luke had become a Jedi (and had a greater understanding of the Force, of the Light and the Dark side, and in more control of his emotions) Yoda and/or Obi-Wan would have told him, and that they never intended for Luke to face Vader before such a time (for his own safety).
    kainee and Valairy Scot like this.
  13. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    I doubt that Sidious would've succeeded in turning Anakin if Qui-Gon had lived because Qui-Gon isn't some newly-appointed Jedi Knight who isn't ready for an apprentice so soon like Obi-wan was. He's already an established Jedi Master and Anakin already idolized him for freeing him from slavery and fulfilling his dream of becoming a Jedi. Qui-Gon would never be harsh with Anakin because he showed a lot of faith and confidence in him especially when Qui-Gon defended Anakin from both the Jedi council and Obi-wan who all feel that Anakin is too old and dangerous to be a Jedi. Knowing the amount of support that Qui-Gon has given him, Anakin will never betray Qui-Gon no matter how hard Sidious tries to sweet-talk Anakin into doing so. Anakin has already found a father figure in Qui-Gon whom he can look up to and has no need for anyone else to fill that role, especially not Sidious.

    Here's one: Obi-wan never even tried to help Anakin.

    It was Padme who worked her hardest in appealing to Anakin's good side and she tried to convince him into giving up his evil ways. All Obi-wan did was berate Anakin about how he let PalpSidious poison his mind into betraying and murdering the very people who raised, trained, and trusted him since he was a child not to mention attacking the woman Anakin was supposed to love. Then Obi-wan spends 10 minutes sword-fighting Anakin all across lava rivers and then he chopped off his limbs and watches Anakin burn to death. These actions do not fit the description of someone who thought Anakin can be saved and maybe Anakin is using Obi-wan's name because he's too ashamed to admit that it was Padme who tried to save him.
  14. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Personally, I don't really care if Obi-Wan "once thought as you do" or tried to save him, although I disagree with you and think he did try to reason with him (and hung back allowing Padme to try first as well).

    Qui-Gon was strict with Obi-Wan, his padawan. What makes you think he'd NOT be strict with Anakin once he officially became his padawan and had adapted to the Jedi way of life? Do you really really think he'd have continued to treat Anakin like a "pseudo-son" ?

    At some point he would have had to become the teacher and not the friend, would have had to discipline Anakin if he'd done something to be disciplined for, etc. He could play the boy's "uncle" or "dad" all he liked while Anakin was not his padawan.
    Last edited by Valairy Scot, Oct 24, 2012
    FARK2005 likes this.
  15. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    How do you help someone in the middle of a sword fight which they initiated? Help them kill you, or help them shuffle off the mortal coil, perhaps? Padme told Anakin that Obi-Wan wanted to help him, and his later statement says only that Obi-Wan once thought a certain way. These are entirely consistent.

    Obi-Wan tries to get Anakin to back down several times. This dialogue, in addition to the argument, makes no sense whatsoever under the theory that Obi-Wan is open to no option other than killing Anakin. If Obi-Wan's dialogue has to be ignored for a position to make sense, it means the position is wrong.
  16. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 2
    I disagree on that. Palpatine didn’t sweet-talk Anakin into betraying the Jedi, nor did Anakin join Palpatine because he was a greater father-figure than Obi-Wan, he joined him because Palpatine did what no other person in the Galaxy could or did: he offered him the power to save Padmé (the most important person in his life), and one of the things he had to do to gain this power was to kill the Jedi.

    Even if Qui-Gon had been Anakin’s master and Anakin had trusted him enough to confide in him, Qui-Gon could never guarantee Padmé would be saved like Palpatine did, and I think Anakin would still have chosen Padmé over the Jedi – it may have been a harder choice for him to make but the end result would have been the same.
    kainee likes this.
  17. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Qui gon should have been anakin's father.
  18. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Then it wouldn't be the Star Wars GL gave us. Do you prefer the one night stand fatherhood, or think Qui-Gon should have married Shmi and created a two parent household for their son?
  19. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Not sure. I prefer qui gon as a wise sage who arrives on Tattoine, but then again, obi wan should have been anakin's main mentor in the prequels, so I'd have qui gon as part of a 2 parent household. However, if i wrote the prequels, that wouldn't be my favorite idea. Here's what I would have done. Like what happened in the prequels, but more explained.

    Ideally, I prefer Anakin's miraculous conception and birth, with the light side of the Force creating him as the messiah/chosen one to defeat the sith and bring balance to the force, or Darth Plageius and/or the Emperor/Palps/Sidious using their/his power of the darkside to influence the midichlorians to create him, making him a creation of either the darkside or a savior created by the light side. I can't decide which is better. I would've made a combination of the 2 ideas. Not sure how that would work. Which is better- darkside conceived anakin, or messiah Anakin?
  20. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I also like "both"

    Plagueis created Anakin.

    But the Force is a sentient entity- that let him create Anakin- so it could give Anakin the destiny "bring balance to the Force".
  21. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    maybe its right to have the young Anakin ghost in ROTJ instead of the older one with hair like it used to be. Kinda give vader the robocop effect.
  22. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4


    That's what I'm saying, that conversation on the AT AT Walker bridge was about Vader being Anakin again. What was Anakin thinking about? It was on of the few Father moments in the saga. Luke represented a part of Padme & Shmi to a degree. He just wanted to save people he loved from death, he did that with Luke. How did Anakin feel holding his sons new saber? Knowing he was the cause of his son losing his old one. He was a proud dad. Even during the duel on Bespin Anakin showed Luke mercy. All he wanted was Luke. ESB is all about Anakins persuit of his long lost child & get him off the side of the "bad guys" aka the Rebelion.
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  23. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    What if Shmi was never murdered? Anakin seemed to care mmore for his Mother, than he did for padme.
  24. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    How did anakin care more for his mother than he did for Padme? I think he was close to them/cared for them equally, not one over the other.

    I am so thankful that Lucas combined Luke's father, a jedi knight anakin skywalker, to the character of darth Vader. The original idea was so lame and boring, with vader betraying anakin skywalker the jedi. Now, what happened in empire strikes back with Luke, Leia, and cloud city, is part of anakin's character and history-the same anakin from the prequels-long haired and young, last name Skywalker, jedi knight. We now what the face behind that mask once was. The same anakin from the prequels-padme, younglings, seperatist on mustafar, burned up in lava, Noooo!!!!, is the same person as vader in the originals, who captured leia, was at cloud city, and was the chosen one in ROTJ. Awesome!!!!!!

    The force is not a sentinent entity. That is absolutley false. It's an energy field created by living things. Created by their cells. It's not a god. It's more of a superpower that comes from life. How can an energy field created by my cells and everyone else's cells in the universe have an intelligence? Makes no sense whatsoever.
  25. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    The Force certainly could be a sentient entity. Your brain is little more than a collection of cells and yet it produces your mind -- your consciousness.
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