Saga The Obi Wan & Anakin Trilogy...what went wrong?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by CoolyFett, Oct 1, 2012.

  1. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Obi-wan endangered Padme's life by hiding in her ship. Although, Padme wasn't getting anywhere with Anakin, Obi-wan made things worse by coming out of hiding because his presence made her look bad from Anakin's POV which led to the force-choke. Obi-wan didn't even bother to stop Anakin from choking her nor did he explain to him that Padme had no clue that he was in her ship since he skipped to the "You did this" argument. As for Qui-Gon, even if he is strict, he's not overly-strict to the point where he pushes a Jedi into the arms of a Sith Lord. He's a bit similar to PalpSidious in terms of winning Anakin's trust but unlike him, Qui-Gon won't manipulate Anakin into opposing the Jedi.

    Padme didn't really believe what she was telling Anakin. Even he can tell just by the smirk on his face because they both know that Obi-wan has no intention of helping Anakin and will kill him if he finds him which is why Padme went to Mustafar to find Anakin before Obi-wan does. If Anakin really thought that Obi-wan once thought that he could save him, then Anakin wouldn't have forced Obi-wan to cut him down and leave him barbecuing on Mustafar.

    "Your father was seduced by the Dark Side of the force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed."

    " He has become a very great threat." "I'm so sorry."

    If Obi-wan believed that there were other options besides killing Anakin, then he wouldn't have said those quotes.

    The only reason Anakin is so desperate to save Padme is because he lost both Qui-Gon and Shmi. With Qui-Gon dead and Shmi left on Tatooine, Anakin has Palpatine to fill the parental role for the first 10 years of his Jedi career. Then, Shmi's death led Anakin to be scared for Padme's safety and wanting the power to cheat death. If Qui-Gon had lived, he would teach Anakin how to overcome the pain of loss and to remind him that the Force cannot bring people back from the dead (not in the sense that they become glow-in-the-dark ghosts).
  2. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    My cells, and everyone else's cells creating a sentinent entity makes no sense at all.
  3. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Are you saying that if the sandpeople never killed shmi, anakin would never turn to the darkside and become darth vader? I disagree. Was it the combination of both qui gon and shmi's death, or just one of them, that led to anakin getting super worried when padme was gonna have kids? Where did his vision come from?

    That's why i think palpatine orchestrated the sandpeople to attack the village, so shmi dies and, if your theory is true, anakin turns to the darkside.

    One random occurence like a group of bandits attacking a random village resulting in such a major event and character development within the saga and the galaxy (anakin becoming darth vader), makes absolutley no sense. I like it better if it was orchestrated.

    Either way, I disagree with the idea that if shmi lived, anakin never would turn to the darkside.
  4. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Even if your opinion that the force is sentinent is true, how could cells create it? How could it be a god? Maybe there is some deity/god (s) in SW that gives people/aliens souls, that makes the force a kind of spiritual energy that "comes from within", because magic cannot come from mere organic cells. Yoda said that people are luminious beings, implying souls. Where did the souls in the GFFA come from? Not the force. The force cannot be a deity.
  5. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Anakin probably would not have feared loss when he had his vision of Padme if Shmi had lived - and quite possibly if all the deaths he saw during the wars hadn't occurred as well. He never saw Padme dying, only suffering, but his mind "saw" it as dying because he saw Shmi suffering and she died as a result of that suffering. He loved his mother and lost her due to inaction; he was determined to take action to save his wife.
  6. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Meaning anakin would never become darth vader and save palpatine from mace windu out of a fear of losing padme, meaning the galactic empire never existed? Are you suggesting a domino effect/butterfly effect? One minor event happening (bandits attack village) results in a major historical change?
  7. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Minor events DO often lead to major historical events although that wasn't what I was saying (I didn't say if Shmi's abduction was random or planned). I was talking about her DYING, regardless of how/why.
  8. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 2
    Obi-Wan tells him to let her go two times – what would you have him do? Run over and cut Anakin down? The very fact that he doesn’t try and take down Anakin while he’s occupied indicates that killing him was not first on his mind.

    So you think it’s because Obi-Wan was too strict that Anakin sought out Palpatine? I think that if Obi-Wan had been a particular strict master, he wouldn’t have allowed Anakin to have any contact with Palpatine in the first place. Which is one of the ways I can see Qui-Gon make a major difference: by restricting Anakin’s time with Palpatine, so that he wouldn’t have had such a heavy influence on Anakin while he was at an impressionable age. But I think Palpatine would only have worked harder on Anakin once he became a knight, and that he would still have accepted Palpatine’s offer to save Padmé. So the road there may have been different, but I think the end result would have been the same

    Also, judging from TPM, I think Qui-Gon as Anakin’s master would’ve been that of a supportive, but strict teacher. In many ways I see him as being an even stricter master than Obi-Wan, because he had experience and confidence in his ability to train a padawan, and wouldn't hesitate to put his apprentice in his place if necessary.

    Based on what exactly?

    Anakin’s smirk may be an indication that he didn’t believe Obi-Wan wished to help them OR it may be a response to the fact that Padmé thought he needed any help at all – after all, Anakin was under the delusion that with his new powers he could make things the way he wanted them to be.

    Also, it makes no sense for Padmé to tell Anakin that Obi-Wan wants to help him if she truly believed he would kill Anakin. And I think the main reason for her going to Mustafar was not because she wanted to find him before Obi-Wan, but because she desperately needed to talk with him – needed him to ensure her that Obi-Wan got it wrong, that he did not kill younglings (though deep down she knows it's true) – and to rescue him from that deep, dark hole she realised he had fallen into.

    Anakin didn’t force Obi-Wan to cut him down because he lacked faith that his master could save him, but because in his mind, he didn’t need to be saved: at last the power he had always desired to make things the way he wanted them to be was within his reach, and he had no intention to give them up. It’s the same reason he declined Padmé’s offer to leave it all behind, because he didn’t believe it was necessary: he believed he could make everything right.

    The first quote is from ANH, and as I said before: from the moment Anakin became Vader till the very moment he turned on the Emperor there was nothing in his actions that indicated he still had a shred of goodness left in him, so it’s not strange that Obi-Wan didn’t harbour any hope of Anakin turning back to the Light side – especially not after having been emerged in the Dark side for over 20 years.

    Concerning the second quote, I never got the impression that Obi-Wan’s response to Padmé’s inquiry indicated confirmation or denial – rather I see his ambiguous answer as an indication that even though he knows what he is supposed to do, he doesn’t want to do it – or think himself capable of doing it. The fact that Padmé tells Anakin that Obi-Wan wants to help him, supports this.

    In my opinion, the reason Anakin is so desperate to save Padmé is because he believed he should have been able to save Shmi (and experienced a lot of guilt in failing to do so), and because he could not bear the thought of loosing the people he loved the deepest. Even if Qui-Gon had somehow managed to teach Anakin how to overcome the pain of loss (which I find unlikely because Anakin is a person the loves the people he cares about very, very deeply) it does not mean he wouldn’t try and prevent Padmé from dying.

    What good would a friendly reminder that the Force could not bring people back from the death do? For Anakin it was never about bringing people back from the death, but preventing them from dying in the first place. Palpatine offered Anakin the power to keep people from dying and that was what he was trying to gain by turning to the Dark side.
    kainee and Valairy Scot like this.
  9. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    @FARK2005: =D=

    Couldn't have said any of that better myself. ^:)^
    FARK2005 likes this.
  10. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    How did anakin become a great threat? He used the darkside of the force and had dark magic powers then? The sith aren't evil just for the sake of being a sith. Being a sith, in and of itself, is neutral.

    Who agrees with this, though? Obi wan sneaks on space ship. Obi wan gets off ship when padme talks to lord vader. Vader force chokes her. Later on, cyborg anakin believes that padme's death was his fault, with the force choke in his anger, because the emperor lied to him. He goes mad and consumed in the darkside and hate as darth vader for over 20 years, the original trilogy.

    It was obi wan's fault that anakin became vader. Had he never snuck onto that ship, anakin never force chokes padme. She loses the will to live anyways, but the emperor doesn't lie to him and say that it was vader's fault that she died. Vader never gets consumed in the darkside out of grief.
  11. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Obi-Wan wouldn't have snuck onto the ship had Anakin not slaughtered the Jedi in the Temple in the first place. So we must blame Anakin. Oh, but Sids offered him a way to save Padme (turning), so its Sid's fault. But then, if Anakin had never married Padme..so it's her fault for marrying him. Hmm...
  12. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    I'm talking about, at that point. Jedi temple, palpatine's temptations, marrying padme, were done with. At that point, that obi wan decided to get off the spaceship. That's what I was talking about.
  13. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Oh.

    Obi-Wan should have gone to the flight deck and flown away, abandoning Padme, leaving her with Anakin to live happily ever after on Mustafar. What a great place to raise toddlers.

    Not sure though what would happen when Sids showed - maybe Anakin would have hijacked the ship while Sids was on planet, abandoning Sids to hell, I mean, Mustafar, for the rest of eternity.
  14. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Mustafar was symbolic of hell. The place where Vader lost his humanity and become cyborg samurai vader. He made a pact with the devil figure, Palps, and ascended to hell. He was burned in the lava, symbolic of hellfire and punishment.
  15. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 2
    Anakin became a threat when he aligned himself with a man that had orchestrated a war (which cost thousands, perhaps millions, of innocent lives) to gain dominion and control over most of the Galaxy – reforming a republic into an oppressive Empire that ruled through terror and brutal force. Anakin became a threat when he led the attack on the Jedi Temple and help slaughter innocent people – including cutting down defenceless children. Anakin became a threat when he, to quote Gandalf: “Abandoned reason for madness” decided that nothing and no one would stand in his way to get what he desired.

    Anakin was already consumed by the Dark side by the time Padmé and Obi-Wan reached him on Mustafar; that’s why Padmé can’t reason with him, that’s why he is capable of choking her in the first place, and that’s why he shows no immediate remorse for his actions after releasing his choke-hold on her.
  16. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Anakin turned back to the light side 23 years later, at least, in Jedi. Had he never force choked padme and never believed the Emperor's lie that it was his fault she died, how long would it have taken for him to be redeemed?

    What do you mean by "consumed"? The darkside is just an emotion, a way of using the force. A tool. It wouldn't exist without any darkside users.

    Yes, the empire was evil. They had a big space station called the death star, and would've destroyed many planets had the rebels not stopped them, palps was immortal. Mace and the jedi didn't know about that, but they knew Palps was up to something bad if he took over galaxy.
  17. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    Anakin was basically responsible for his own fall from grace. For me, there is no doubt about that. However, Obi-Wan was not the best Jedi teacher for him . . . and quite frankly, not a good teacher, period. I think he had his own flaws that did not help Anakin in the long run. But regardless of Obi-Wan's flaws and mistakes, Anakin is still mainly responsible.
    kainee likes this.
  18. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 2
    If the Dark side is merely an emotion, why is it so difficult to turn back from? Why does it take several minutes for Vader to act when the Emperor is torturing/killing his son with lightening? I’m referring to the fact that the OT makes it clear that once you fall to the Dark side you can’t simply turn back when it suits you. I’m referring to the fact that Light side-Anakin would never had choked his pregnant wife or murdered the Jedi.

    They knew from history that the Sith’s only goal was self-empowerment – often achieved through conflict – and that they didn’t care how many innocent beings had to suffer and die to get it. They knew that the Sith cared for nothing but themselves, and that emotions such as empathy, compassion and love had no place in the Sith philosophy – hence the Jedi didn’t have to be geniuses to figure out what kind of ruler the Sith would be.
    Valairy Scot likes this.
  19. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Absurd and baseless.

    You keep telling me what these characters know and believe, but this seems to just be something you believe. It is not consistent with some of Obi-Wan's dialogue and behavior.

    This really makes no sense. Obi-Wan argued with him; Obi-Wan cut him down. These things both happened in the film. They were not mutually exclusive, and there is no reason why they should be. Obi-Wan "once thought that he could save him" in the sense that he wanted Anakin to give up; Anakin wasn't going to do that.

    This is false ( contradicted by Lucas and various EU sources ). Besides, you wouldn't remove an emotion just by getting rid of all so-called "darkside users". Any Force-sensitive is a potential dark side user.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Oct 25, 2012
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  20. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    The Jedi/windu had no idea about the death star. Why does it care if they can't feel empathy, compassion, and love? Why would a citizen care about the personality of the ruler, or quadrillions of citizens care? Besides, the sith do feel love. The jedi cut off all emotional attachments, like they can't marry for instance. Which contradicts itself, obi wan and anakin had a very close relationship, probably equally as close to him as padme was. Anyway, why would the citizens care about the Rule of Two? Sith who fight each other to get more power? It's irrelevant to the trillions of imperial citizens. All that mattered was how the sith would rule the galaxy, politically. In my opinion, star wars is a very political story, if you think about it.

    The Jedi had no idea about the death star, and they had no idea about the empire's treatment of non human species (never mentioned it), or anything like that. So, what did they know about Sith opression? They only hated the sith and didn't let Palps take over for personal reasons.

    Also, what do you mean by darkside not being merely an emotion? The force is a tool. It depends on how you use it.
  21. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Palps subverted the constitution of the Republic - that's why the Jedi cared about him taking over. Would you like the US President to seize control of the country at the end of his term and declare an Empire with him as Emperor because of - say, Syria? Or Libya? Or fear of extreme GOP'ers?

    Nixon may well have thought of doing so had McGovern won that election.

    Or should the citizens accept whatever the government is doing, even if that government leader exceeds his mandate?
  22. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 2
    No one ever claimed they did.

    They would care because a ruler’s personality will be reflected in their rule: a ruler who cares for no one but himself (like Palpatine) don’t care that the people he rules suffer or/and die. Feelings like empathy, compassion, and love are what make people care for each other – if you are incapable of feeling such emotions it wouldn’t matter to you to see a child brutally murdered for instance.

    A ruler who is defined by empathy, compassion, and love would never have started a bloody war to gain power, would never rule through fear and violence and would care about his people.

    The Sith were capable of love, but it was discouraged because in their minds love led to mercy which they believed was a weakness.

    The Rule of Two would indeed be irrelevant for the citizens – so why do you bring it up?

    Exactly! And the Jedi knew from the history they stored in their library that when the Sith rose to power, they initiated bloody conflicts that killed not only the people who might stand in their way but also those unfortunate enough to get caught in the cross-fire. They knew that a Sith ruler oppressed his/her citizens, which suffered as a result.

    Palpatine had already caused much suffering by starting conflicts (Naboo, the Clone Wars) that claimed many, many innocent lives - such a ruthless person does not make a kind ruler.

    The Jedi had extensive records of galactic history, including the atrocities committed by the Sith.

    The Dark side is an aspect of the Force, not an emotion.
  23. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    Well in the AOTC dvd I watched Anakin saw fit to want to leave Naboo to tend to his mother, padme decided to come along. Padme became more important after Shmi died, before that she was juast a job & a crush.
  24. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    I don't think you get the big picture, Anakin turning to the darkside is Wattos fault , he was the one who sold shmi to the Lars. Watta should have sold Shmi to Jabba the Hutt, then we could se Shmi in a metal bikini! See the big picture?
    I
  25. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    How would that save Shmi? Also, if shmi never died would palpatine have told anakin he was a sith lord? Why did Palps tell anakin he was a sith lord, knowing anakin would tell on him to the jedi. Did he want jedi to fight him for some reason? Plot holes.