Saga The Obi Wan & Anakin Trilogy...what went wrong?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by CoolyFett, Oct 1, 2012.

  1. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
  2. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    He waaasnt much of a danger when he threw Palpatine over the rail to save Luke from danger.
  3. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    The o_O post response, I believe, was in response to the initial post that the kids "should be turned over to Palpatine so he (Palps) could raise them."

    Of, course, NOW :p you're rephrased that to turn them over to Anakin so Anakin can hide them from Palpatine.
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  4. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    You mean after he tortured Leia and cut off Luke's hand?

    Look, I like Anakin -- he's my favorite character. But, in the real world, society takes children away from parents that pose a threat to their health and well-being. And Anakin, based on his action, most certainly met that criteria in regards to Luke and Leia.

    He eventually did the right thing, but Obi-Wan was right to keep the twins hidden from him.
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  5. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    =D=

    "Gosh...you act like he did those things sequentially in the same freakin' movie...:rolleyes:" :p;)
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Oct 30, 2012
  6. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    If Qui-Gon hadn't died, Anakin would never turn to PalpSidious for guidance and support. Also, if Shmi hadn't died, then Anakin wouldn't have succumbed to the dark side and become super worried about Padme so yes, it was a combination of Qui-Gon and Shmi's deaths that began Anakin's path to the dark side. They were the only ones who could've kept Anakin safe and secured from any negative influences but now, he is lost without them. Add to that PalpSidious' false promise to help Anakin to learn how to access the power to cheat death led to Anakin becoming Darth Vader.

    But the fact that Obi-wan comes out of Padme's ship and ignites his lightsaber against Anakin does NOT support your theory that he wants to help him. Plus, Obi-wan could've done more than just stand around watching Anakin choke his own wife like force-pushing him away from her, drop kicking him to the ground, levitate him into the air, or anything else instead of standing like a statue. Telling Anakin to let go of Padme wasn't good enough because what if he never listened to Obi-wan? Anakin would've snapped Padme's neck which is why Obi-wan should've stopped him much earlier before he could harm her.

    It wouldn't matter what kind of teacher Obi-wan is because he already made a bad impression in front of Anakin by calling him "dangerous" in TPM. From that point, Anakin has distanced himself from Obi-wan and even when Obi-wan tried to tell Anakin not to trust PalpSidious, Anakin never listens to him because he doesn't respect him as much as he respects Qui-Gon which Anakin points in the Clone Wars cartoon (the anime version).

    Based on the fact that when Padme asked Obi-wan if he's going to kill Anakin and his lack of response spoke volumes to her. She even looked horrified when she saw Obi-wan in her ship because she knew that bad things were about to happen.

    If Padme really believed that Obi-wan wants to help Anakin, then why didn't she ask him to accompany her to Mustafar? Why didn't she tell him where Anakin is? Why was she shocked to see Obi-wan in her ship? What doesn't make sense is that Padme would withhold information on Anakin's whereabouts from Obi-wan if she actually thought that he can save Anakin and even when she found out that Obi-wan was right about Anakin, Padme shouldn't have looked worried when she saw Obi-wan. She should've been happy to see him instead of frightened like he's going to rob her of her husband and her children of their father.

    So, it took Padme's death for Anakin to learn the hard way that the power he has always desired ends up being the cause of his visions becoming real and ruining his life. Even if Anakin realized that Obi-wan had warned him to back down, I still say he's using Obi-wan's name to hide the fact that it was Padme who tried to save him because he's still saddened by what he did to her and ashamed to say her name. Anakin has no remorse for Obi-wan who put him in the black suit and helmet in the first place.

    First off, the quote is from ROTJ and second, the fact that Padme was shocked to see Obi-wan in her ship does NOT support the idea that she thinks Obi-wan can help Anakin. Just because Obi-wan was hesitant to fight Anakin doesn't mean that he's going to back away because he knew that it was inevitable that he will sword fight Anakin to the death which they eventually do.

    Anakin mentioned that the Jedi haven't told him everything about the Force and he might be right. They didn't warn him about the dangers of using the Dark side and the whole "fear is the path speech" from Yoda wasn't enough because it only talks about emotions. They should've told him that when one is consumed by the Dark side, they'll lose control and end up harming not only themselves but other people too. Anakin had both Darth Maul and Count Dooku as living proof of what the Dark side can do to people so he should've known better that to believe some made-up nonsense from PalpSidious that the Dark Side will help Anakin save Padme.

    No, it's not. If Padme thought Obi-wan could help Anakin, she would want him to come with her to Mustafar instead of leaving him in the dark about Anakin's whereabouts.

    Nothing about Obi-wan is consistent. Ever since the "I am your father" scene came on the movie screens in 1980, Obi-wan's entire credibility has been shot to hell. I don't just believe what these characters know and believe, I've seen how they react and the way Padme reacted when she saw Obi-wan did NOT look like she was happy to see him. She was concerned by what Obi-wan was going to do to Anakin and then, she has Anakin accusing her of bringing Obi-wan to kill him. Once Padme had her throat strangled, Obi-wan was forced to take down Anakin knowing that he's beyond saving at this point.

    I'd consider the whole "Obi-wan once thought he could save Anakin" concept in the sense that he tried Padme's approach first. Obi-wan would try to talk some sense into Anakin about how he's been deceived by PalpSidious' lies and that the Dark side is NOT the life-saving power Anakin thinks it is. Then, Obi-wan would tell Anakin that he's not turning to the Dark side for Padme but for himself but Anakin will blow off everything Obi-wan says by giving him the "I don't fear the Dark Side as you do" speech. Finally, what would really start the lightsaber duel is when Obi-wan brings up how if Shmi were alive, she'd be ashamed of what Anakin is doing and Anakin would be so pissed off at Obi-wan, that he would attack him just like how Luke attacks Vader when he threatens to turn Leia to the Dark Side. As it is, all Obi-wan did is say "You did this" and "I will do what I must" like a disgruntled coach who wants to beat up his football team for losing the game. He didn't give Anakin a chance to give up until it was too late and by then, Anakin is without limbs and burnt to a crisp.
    Last edited by PMT99, Oct 31, 2012
  7. Saurion-Fett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2001
    star 4
    What went wrong is george never gave Anakin a real good reason to snap and kill a bunch of kids a betray everying thing he was ready to die for a day ago.
    If the Jedi had threatened to take his children from him as jedi were not meant to get busy and obiwan betrayed anakins seceret to the council and then belived that padme had lost the children ......then I could see why anakin may wanna kill the man who he considered a brother
  8. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 2
    Perhaps you should watch the scene again: Obi-Wan ignites his lightsaber after Anakin has displayed hostile behaviour by choking Padmé - having seen how deeply Anakin had fallen it is no wonder if he lost faith in him.

    Besides I never claimed Obi-Wan wanted to help Anakin – Padmé did – I merely pointed out my doubts that he had made up his mind to simply kill Anakin when he came to Mustafar. I think he had made up his mind to stop Anakin/Vader, but really had no idea how to do it – allowing Anakin’s actions to guide his. And I do believe that he would have tried to help Anakin if he had asked for it.

    It’s always easy to dictate how someone should have done this and that when you’re not standing in that specific situation and doesn’t have the same emotional entanglement. It’s a lot to ask to demand that Obi-Wan should think rationally in that situation and after everything that had just happened. Obi-Wan did what anyone else would have done had they been in his shoes, he acted instinctively which meant doing what he had been doing ever since Anakin became his apprentice and did something wrong: tell him to stop. Had it been any other person I have no doubt he would have done what you suggest, but I think that in all Jedi masters lay an instinctive reaction against hurting the child they had raised for several years.

    Also, the purpose of the Force Choke was not to break the victim’s neck, but to constrict the airways causing death by asphyxiation – hence the name “Force Choke”.

    It was you who indicated Anakin was pushed into Sidious’ arms because Obi-Wan was an overly strict teacher – not I.

    I agree that Anakin having overheard Obi-Wan call him dangerous may have planted a small seed of distrust, but I disagree that Anakin distanced himself from Obi-Wan from that point: in AotC Anakin states that Obi-Wan was like his father, which indicates the two had grown much closer since TPM not further apart.

    Except it makes absolutely no sense for her to claim that Obi-Wan wanted to help if she truly believed he would just kill Anakin on sight. I think she believed (like I do) that if Anakin asked Obi-Wan for help then he would get it.

    Of course she is horrified: she had hoped she could make Anakin see reason, but then that failed she knew Anakin was in no state of mind to meet with his former master, and Obi-Wan would have to do what he must.

    Like I said above: she had hoped to talk sense into Anakin before he and Obi-Wan ever met, because she knew if Anakin did not renounce the road he was on Obi-Wan would be forced to stop him.

    Of course Padmé looked worried: these two men were standing on opposing sides and neither were willing to back down – she knew it could only end badly no matter who would emerge the victor.

    I don’t think Anakin ever acknowledged that his pursuit for power was what caused Padmé’s death – not until his redemption at least – I think he believed that if he had been even more powerful he could have saved her.

    Oh I agree that the way RotS played out it makes no sense from Anakin POV to tell Luke that Obi-Wan “once thought as you do”. Yes, it seems likely that his shame over Padmé’s death was the reason he used Obi-Wan’s name instead.

    Ah yes, got them mixed up, my bad.

    Not at this point no, but it doesn’t oppose the idea that Padmé believed Obi-Wan would help Anakin under the right circumstances – namely that he wanted to be helped, and that he was remorseful about the things he had done.

    I agree that Obi-Wan would not back down unless Anakin renounced the Dark side. Padmé knew this as well, and since Anakin would not come to his senses, she knew the two of them were going to clash.

    How do you know they didn’t warn him about the dangers of the Dark side? After all, AotC and RotS covers merely a fraction of Anakin’s life with the Jedi.

    I think Anakin was well aware of the dangers involved both from having heard stories, met Dooku himself, and from loosing control and slaughtering the sandpeople, but Anakin was a desperate man and when people are desperate, rational and logical thinking goes right out of the window.

    Yes he did, twice:
    1. before the duel began: he readied his weapon and awaited Anakin’s reaction (like any other law enforcement officer would do when dealing with an extremely dangerous and armed criminal). Anakin could have chosen not to attack, but he didn’t.
    2. when he held the high ground he gave Anakin the chance to back down, but he didn’t.
    Last edited by FARK2005, Oct 31, 2012
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  9. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
  10. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Face it: the OT and the PT are consistent on this point, just maybe not in the way people expected. Look elsewhere for alleged OT/PT inconsistencies.
  11. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    Palpatine was the bad guy. Yes he was bad.
  12. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    No
  13. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    What is "no" in reply to?

    Are you saying Anakin didn't torture Leia and cut off Luke's hand?

    Are you saying Child Protection Services doesn't exist?

    Are you contradicting the notion that Obi-Wan was right to keep the twins hidden from Anakin? Even when Anakin himself states that "Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me."
  14. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    I didn't see a child protection agency in the Saga, but I am watching them again, to see if I see one. Hopefully it will show up soon though.
    TOSCHESTATION likes this.
  15. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Errr...when did I say it did? If you'll notice, my original statement was that society takes children away from parents who pose a threat to them. When you said "no" I then asked which part of my statement you disagreed with and referred to back to that statement since Child Protective Services is usually who takes care of such situations in our world. That wasn't referring to Star Wars and you never did tell me what the "no" was in response to.
  16. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    How was anakin a threat to luke and leia, if he raised them?
  17. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Anakin tortured Leia and cut off Luke's hand. Well, I like your wording. I like how you call him Anakin instead of Vader. It makes his famous original trilogy character seem more humanlike, and it reminds us that the handsome anakin in the prequels is the same person as the Anakin (or aka Vader), who fought Luke and tortured Leia-his daughter. Anakin's daughter. That has a nice ring to it. It sounds better saying Anakin's daughter than Vader's daughter.

    If obi wan gave Luke and Leia to anakin, what would have happened to the twins?

    How did Anakin torture Leia? I mean, what did he do exactly?
  18. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Because he had no emotional control and was dangerously unstable. He loved Padmé and yet still choked her without even listening to what she had to say. Raising newborns is extremely taxing and I doubt Anakin would have been able to handle it, given the state he was in. But more than that, he likely would have hurt them if he had become too upset.
  19. codex of tython Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    yes he did, to save Padmé
  20. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    At that point, anakin was darth vader in the robot suit serving the Emperor. What would have happened if Obi wan gave anakin, the empire's 2nd in command, the 2 babies?

    Also, if they give luke and leia to adopted parents, why not keep them together? Like luke and leia stay with the lars, or luke and leia stay with the Organas?
  21. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    The Jedi basically kidnapped children who were force sensitive. They did evil things.
    codex of tython likes this.
  22. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    But the twins weren't born until after Anakin was horrifically injured. There's no way that Obi-Wan could have given Anakin the twins before he was put into the suit.

    They were separated, I imagine, for an extra layer of protection. If one of them was discovered, then the other one would be safe since Anakin didn't know that Padmé was carrying twins.
  23. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    How would keeping them together make the two of them both be discovered? obi wan said that leia was safely anonymous. I kinda understand it, but not really.

    After Anakin was put into the suit, why didnt obi wan give anakin the children?

    Before too?
  24. codex of tython Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    it's not completely evil, they kidnapped children to help preserving peace in the galaxy, without jedi there would be much more chaos
  25. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    What? How could you say that? What would have happened if a child, living, on say, any random planet in the galaxy, and a Jedi was traveling around that area for some reason and telepathically found out that the child was Force-sensitive. What if he wanted to stay at home? They would take him to Coruscant and force him to join the Jedi against his will? I'm sorry, that's just plain wrong. It's called kidnapping.