Saga The Obi Wan & Anakin Trilogy...what went wrong?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by CoolyFett, Oct 1, 2012.

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  1. codex of tython Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    it's cruel, i know, but without younglings there wouldn't be jedi. without jedi Star Wars would not exist.
    Last edited by codex of tython, Nov 5, 2012
  2. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Maybe we're wrong. How do you know they would force a Force-sensitive child away from his home and planet and capture him? Maybe it would be voluntary, like young wizards and hogwarts in harry potter.
  3. codex of tython Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    maybe, look at anakin in ep.1, he accompanied Qui-gon and Obi without hesitating
  4. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Yeah, but it's speculation, and not confirmed. Anakin left with qui gon and obi wan because he was a slave who wanted a better life. Vader's mom said that "this path has been placed before you, the choice is yours alone". I just noticed that. The Jedi were not kidnappers. Had anakin, a force sensitive, decided to stay on tattoine, the jedi would have allowed him to.
  5. codex of tython Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    so we were wrong across the whole line o_O
  6. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Can we agree that Anakin's choice to leave was 100% voluntary?
  7. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    And the Empire wouldn't exist. Anakin wouldn't save Palpatine from Mace windu on Coruscant to save padme.
  8. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Good observation. My brain creates my consciousness-and my brain is just cells. But my cells don't create a spiritual energy field that can create an afterlife and souls. That's like a monotheist saying that their cells created god, who created the afterlife, souls, and spiritual energy.

    How can the Force be a sentinent entity? It's called a Force. Calling a force a thinking being is an oxymoron

    The force is not an organic substance. It's spiritual, luminious, energy, kinda like how many religions and Near death experience people see god and the afterlife. Cells, biological substance, may create an entity, but they can't create something spiritual.

    The force existed before life in the universe.
    kainee likes this.
  9. codex of tython Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 4, 2012
    i agree :D
  10. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Good grief, not the "Jedi kidnap babies" lies again!

    And I'd be down Yoda and Obi-Wan's throats if they dared even think of giving the twins to Anakin after he's turned to the darkside - THAT would be child abuse.
  11. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    What would be wrong with Yoda and obi wan/bail organa giving luke and leia to Anakin skywalker when he's on the darkside and the 2nd in command of the Empire? I'm not joking. I seriously don't understand the details behind that, and why Luke and Leia had to be given to adoptive parents and not their biological real father.
  12. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Anakin - or Vader as you might prefer - had just slaughtered his own "family" including younglings. Most of us on the boards would never hand two babies over to a baby-murderer. Even if he treated them as the most wonderful things in the world, he'd raise them on hate and to go around killing others (very short summary of what would be an essay).

    Your inability to understand this concept (or explain why you think this IS acceptable) is just so - well, I can't even begin to think how to explain this.

    Maybe you should try telling the board why you think it is acceptable to give the babies to a dad who will kill anyone who crosses him.
  13. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    I will explain it. First of all, the whole youngling thing was lame shock value, in my opinion.

    Second of all, I call him Anakin, even if i'm talking about what darth vader did in the origianl trilogy. He is anakin when he duels Luke in Empire. Anakin didn't get possesed by a demon or cosmic entity like dark phoenix and jean grey when he became darth vader. Vader isn't a demon that possess luke's father. It's just a title. Kinda like Obama or Georgey is the President. Anakin is Vader.

    How were the younglings vader's family? Also, the Empire killed most of the Jedi, not Anakin.

    You said that Obi wan didn't give Anakin Luke and Leia because he would raise them on hate and death. Well, Anakin is the 2nd in command of Emperor Palpatine. Is that why they didnt give the twins to Vader? So they wouldn't join the empire? Is my theory wrong?
  14. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Yes, Obi-Wan hid the twins because the Emperor would likely have them killed because they would be a threat to his rule. Obi_wan explains this in ROTJ.

    "The Emperor knew as I did that if Anakin were to have any offspring they would be a threat to him."

    Obi-Wan had pretty much given up on Anakin's ability to be turned back from the dark side. So he knew if Vader had the kids, the Emperor would soon get hold of them. So, Obi-Wan kept them hidden from both. But mostly so the Emperor wouldn't kill them.
    Last edited by ShaneP, Nov 5, 2012
  15. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    People can be families without a blood relationship. If you choose to see the Jedi as non-family, then nothing I can say will change your mind.

    And shock value or not, Anakin KILLED younglings. Because he thought killing CHILDREN would allow him to save one woman he could not live without. While I personally believe he wanted to save her FOR himself so HE wouldn't have to live without her (others disagree), he was willing to sacrifice EVERYTHING and EVERYONE for her. And I DON"T CARE if he didn't personally kill "most of the Jedi" - he went there on purpose and purposely killed Jedi there.

    What's Vader being "2nd in command" of anything got to do with protecting innocent kids? I wouldn't give the kids to Palps (#1 in charge) or Vader (#2 in charge) or Tarkin or Mas Amadda...

    You want to know if your theory is correct? Well, I'd say your theory is incomplete. Yes, they (Yoda, Obi-Wan, Bail) did not want to give the kids to Vader to "join the Empire" (which of course they believe is illegal and immoral and evil) but, in my view, they didn't trust Palpatine to even keep the kids alive - and who knows, they may have thought Anakin would kill them, neglect them, or otherwise mistreat them as the "cause" of Padme's death (because she was pregnant with them, he had the dreams of her dying, because ... because...). There are in real life family, often dads, who dislike their newborn kid because the mother died in childbirth which they irrationally blame on the kid.

    The welfare of the kids trumps parents' rights, rightfully so.
    ILNP and FARK2005 like this.
  16. Saurion-Fett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2001
    star 4
    I love my wife a lot....but not gonna murder children to save her...crap plot
  17. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    How was it a crap plot? That was the whole point, Anakin kills younglings so he gets enough darkside strength to save her? It's very evil, someone harming others they don't know just to save someone they care about. TV Tropes call it "Always save the Girl". It's a better villian motivation than "MUHAHAHA", I want to be evil for the sake of being evil and keeping everyone under control MUHAHHAA!!! Agree? I thought it was an interesting villian motive, not a crap plot...........

    Another 2 reasons it was a good plot:

    It mirrored Vader tempting Luke to the Darkside with the power to save his friends, remember?

    Darth Vader was Luke's father. So Padme must've been pregnant at one point; so the plot twist was, Darth Vader being Luke's father is linked to him becoming evil, the desire to save wife out of dying in childbirth, I guess...................
  18. Saurion-Fett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2001
    star 4
    I think you mis understand my problem with the plot.We had three movies to show Anakins fall from the light and into the dark. The reason to turn from all those who had loved and cared for him was very rushed in episode III. The "fail" in the plot was how easy it was to go and murder children. I dont hate the PT but you talk of the MUHAHAHA villian and thats what they made him. One dimentional "now I am the bad guy" Villan...with poor lines like "from my point of view the Jedi re evil" wtf?. Even if he had said this is the ony way to save Padme it would make more sense.
    I never felt I could connect or even feel sorry for Anakin instead he drunk a cup of instant evil...all he needed was some sharks with freakn laserbeams on their heads.
    Last edited by Saurion-Fett, Nov 6, 2012
  19. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Why did you quote my post for no reason?
  20. Saurion-Fett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2001
    star 4
    have a look .....relax....lol
  21. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    [face_laugh][face_rofl]
  22. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Haha. We both like Austin Powers. Invisible high fives.


    I liked the dialogue, such as "from my POV, the Jedi were evil". It felt very dramatic, melodromatic, and emotional. Let's face it. With that kinda stuff, you either love it or hate it.

    Anakin Skywalker didnt just turn to the Darkside to save Padme. There were contributing factors. Remember the Imperial March in AOTC? After Skywalker killed the sandpeople that killed his mother. Hints of darkside. If Shmi skywalker never died, anakin wouldnt fear losing Padme as much and turning to darkside. If Anakin never had a friendship with Palpatine, he never could be manipulated by him. So, there were a lot of factors.

    Saving Padme was what tipped him off. It's kind of like you're really angry and one little thing sets you off and you start yelling. Same concept.

    I liked the idea that Anakin turned to save Luke and Leia's mom from childbirth when she was pregnant with them. Notice the parallels? The emperor tempted Anakin, and 20 yrs later, tempted Luke? History repeats itself.


    I'm not sure if he killed Palpatine and turned against the Emperor to save Luke, or so he could get the power for himself. Probably both.

    Darth Vader's motives are to save people close to him. He turned evil and joined the Emperor to save the woman he loved from dying in pregnancy, he turned good and killed the Emperor to save his son, the same son she was carrying that he was afraid she would die with.

    Notice the parallels?
    Last edited by Lord Tyrannus, Nov 6, 2012
  23. WIERD_GREEN_MAN Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2010
    star 4
    He turned against the Emperor to save Luke.
  24. Saurion-Fett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2001
    star 4
    He could have saved leias and luke mom from childbirth by wearing a Condom...lol...i did like his decent into evil in AOTC...but still feel SITH was rushed
    Last edited by Saurion-Fett, Nov 7, 2012
  25. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    He did say that when he knelt in front of Palpatine. He just didn't say it to Obi-Wan.

    I agree with you to a point about the younglings scene; that scene is a big part of the reason that I don't watch the second half of ROTS. It was very gratuitous, very much in line with "we need to think of the worst possible deed we can think of for the newly crowned Vader to do--what would that be? Oh, I know, let's have him draw his saber on some small Jedi kids asking for help." It went beyond Anakin being desperate to save Padme--which was the point of his turn, and which I accepted as the point of his turn--and just made him look either completely delusional or mind-bogglingly stupid. That was one of my biggest frustrations with that film, Anakin not stopping to ask, "Hey, wait a damn minute, how is this going to help me save Padme?" And it seems that the only reason he didn't ask, is because of Lucasfilm wanting to insert as much gratuitous evil as possible. Ditto with the Padme choking scene.

    But at the same time, I understood that Anakin did, in whatever recesses of his delusional or mind-bogglingly stupid brain at that point, believe that blind obedience to whatever Palpatine asked, was the only way to save Padme.
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