Saga The Obi Wan & Anakin Trilogy...what went wrong?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by CoolyFett, Oct 1, 2012.

  1. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    The implication I got was that somehow doing more "evil" will charge up his dark side battery, as it were. I really, really dislike this approach to Force powers, but that's how it seemed to me. "Only then will you be strong enough in the dark side to save Padme."
  2. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    This kind of thing is not unheard of in canon.
  3. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    Also known as, "contrived tropes in fiction".......or in other words:

    "Get-out-of-jail-free-card, that excuse is NOT" - Master Yoda
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Nov 7, 2012
  4. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    It's only wrong when PT Lucas does it, not when OT Lucas does it.

    When the EU does it: so, so wrong, yet nobody ever complains about it.
  5. PMT99 Force Ghost

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    But you're implying that Padme actually believes that Obi-wan can free Anakin from the Dark side but she doesn't or else she wouldn't have looked concerned when she saw Obi-wan coming out of her ship. Obi-wan has already seen Anakin's hostile behavior long before he confronted him on Mustafar when he witnessed holographic footage of Anakin killing Jedi and teaming up with PalpSidious. Obi-wan doesn't have to see Anakin choking Padme to know that he's become a great threat to the galaxy but that incident reminded Obi-wan of why he had to destroy Anakin. Obi-wan knew exactly how to do it but was unwilling to do it because he still loved him like a kid brother although he's still going to ignite his lightsaber no matter what happens.

    But if that child turns evil and winds up killing you and other people, those Jedi masters aren't going to stand by and do nothing. They're going to put down the little brat even if it is their own child because if the safety of the galaxy meant eliminating their own former apprentice, then so be it. Yoda trained Count Dooku since he was a child but that didn't stop Yoda from doing what had to be done in AOTC knowing that Dooku is now a Sith which is why Yoda expects Obi-wan to do the same with Anakin.

    In AOTC, Anakin states that Obi-wan is overly-critical, he never listens to him, nor understands him. In ROTS, Anakin says he never appreciated Obi-wan's training of him, feels that Obi-wan doesn't trust him, and he blames him for Shmi's death. Either Obi-wan is too strict of a teacher or PalpSidious has been undermining Obi-wan's teachings behind his back by feeding Anakin's ego...in either case, Anakin and Obi-wan were never that close. By the way, it was you who pointed out that Sidious would've corrupt Anakin into joining the Sith no matter which Jedi trained him and I was just being hypothetical about what would happen if Qui-Gon had lived to train Anakin.

    The only thing that doesn't make sense about Padme's belief that Obi-wan can help Anakin is that Obi-wan never made such a promise to her. Obi-wan has no intention of freeing Anakin from the Dark side since he doesn't believe that it's possible for a Jedi to give up the Dark side. All Obi-wan told Padme is that Anakin has become a "great threat" and that he must find him which led Padme to figure out what he plans to do with Anakin. Another thing, Padme knows that Anakin blames Obi-wan for Shmi's death because he felt that Obi-wan should've known that Anakin's dreams of Shmi's death would become real. Once Padme finds out that Anakin is having the same kind of visions about her, she should've known that Anakin will never go to Obi-wan for help again knowing what happened to his mom. The only reason Padme failed to make Anakin see reason on Mustafar is because Obi-wan made her look bad by stepping out of her ship. I know that Obi-wan hid in her ship to protect her but his actions brought more harm than good.

    Anakin may have been out of his marbles, but he wouldn't have a reason to harm Padme if Obi-wan hadn't stowed away in her ship. Obi-wan could've put a tracking device on her ship so that he can pinpoint where she's going to meet Anakin and then follow her there. That way, Obi-wan can still confront Anakin but not have him accuse Padme of siding with Obi-wan which led to the force choke.

    I don't see how Anakin can still believe that the Dark side is a life-saving power when it destroyed everything he held dear to his heart such as Padme. The second he was told about Padme's death by PalpSidious, Anakin should've realized that he's been suckered the whole time or maybe, he already has and his "NOOOO" scream was his way of acknowledging that he turned to the Dark side for nothing.

    Anakin may have been remorseful by the things he's done, but he will never ask Obi-wan for help. Especially not after Obi-wan's "dreams pass in time" advice led to Anakin failing to save his mother in time. I would buy that Padme believed that Obi-wan could help Anakin if he had told her he will but he hasn't and his apology to her after sensing her pregnancy doesn't really support the idea that Obi-wan will ever help Anakin.

    In AOTC and ROTS,we see Anakin constantly whining about how Obi-wan is holding him back and how he's feeling excluded from the Jedi council which tells me that they aren't doing enough to warn Anakin about the dangers of the Dark side. Plus, his killings of Dooku and the sandpeople did nothing to deter Anakin from succumbing to the Dark side and I agree that he lost all logical thinking when he did turn.

    1. When Obi-wan says, "I will do what I must", that does NOT sound like he's telling Anakin to give up. It's more like he's saying, "I'm taking you down...dead or alive".

    2. Again, Obi-wan waited too late to order Anakin to back down because anything he says at this point sounds like insults to Anakin. Hence, his "You underestimate my power" quote.

    If the OT and the PT were consistent, then:
    -Padme would've survived so that Leia would have memories of her.
    -Obi-wan would've trained Anakin by his own choice, not because Qui-Gon made him promise.
    -Anakin would've actually ask Obi-wan to give his lightsaber to Luke, not have Obi-wan steal it from him and lie to Luke about Anakin wanting him to have his lightsaber.
    -Bail Organa would've actually served with Obi-wan during the Clone Wars, not after it's ended when he helped Obi-wan and Yoda escape from the Empire.
    -Anakin would've actually be a good friend to Obi-wan, not an ungrateful, backstabbing traitor.

    The inconsistencies are everywhere, not just here.
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  6. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    and:


    ^^^^^^This.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Nov 8, 2012
  7. Samnz Force Ghost

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    I'll give you that, although the OT never makes clear Leia knows about her adoption.

    Obi-Wan trained Obi-Wan by his own choice.
    He chose to believe in Qui-Gon and therefore decided to train him. It was his choice.

    Really? Obi-Wan was consciously lying in that scene to hide the truth. Otherwise you had to criticize the BIG BIG BIG ANH/TESB "inconsistency" (Vader killed his father vs. Vader is his father).
    Did you expect him so say, "After I defeated your father...wrong, I mean after Vader defeated your father, I was standing next to Vader and took your father's lightsaber. Now it's yours. And by the way, Vader is your father. I'm not allowed to lie."?

    Leia actually stated Kenobi served her father in the Clone Wars and the Jedi (including Obi-wan) did serve the Senate (including Organa) during the Clone Wars.

    That's your perception. I get that some people wanted to see them kissing and being best friends all that time, but I think there is plenty of friendship and affection palpable..
  8. PMT99 Force Ghost

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    Qui-Gon: Obi-wan, promise.....promise me you will train the boy?
    Obi-wan: Yes, master.
    Qui-Gon: He is the Chosen One. He.....will bring balance. Train him.

    Obi-wan trained Anakin out of Qui-Gon's last wish, not because it was his choice. When Obi-wan first met Anakin, he didn't want the boy to be trained as a Jedi and he's been very vocal about it with words like "He's too old" and "The boy is dangerous. They all sense it, why can't you". The second Qui-Gon was killed, Obi-wan changes his tune and tells Yoda, "I gave Qui-Gon my word. I will train Anakin....without the approval of the council if I must". Obi-wan himself admits that he promised Qui-Gon that he trained Anakin and while he believed in Qui-Gon, he did NOT believed in Anakin which is why as Yoda puts it, that is why he failed Anakin.

    Unless you want your plans to blow up in your face, you shouldn't lie whatsoever. By lying to Luke, Obi-wan has tricked him to attacking his own father.

    By serving, I thought Leia meant that Obi-wan and Bail fought side-by-side during the Clone Wars, not Bail sits in the sidelines while Obi-wan is doing all the fighting. If we are to get technical, Obi-wan did serve with Leia's "actual" father, Anakin.

    But friends don't betray each other, much less fight to the death on a volcanic planet.
  9. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    Same here.


    To be fair, this happened ever since TESB/ROTJ with the Father Vader ret-con.
  10. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    The way the conversation goes:

    LUKE
    Leia... do you remember your mother? Your
    real mother?

    LEIA
    Just a little bit. She died when I was very
    young.

    ...implies that Leia is aware. Of course you could say that the person she remembers is Bail's wife, who then would have died when Leia was very young. In that case, Leia would have been under the impression that Bail's wife was her real mother even up to and including this conversation. And she doesn't register any 'extra' surprise at finding out then that no, she would have (in this model) been adopted twice in succession. This seems like it adds too many layers of misdirection, to me. It could be the case, but it doesn't work as well as a story as the simpler plot does.

    Not to mention that her remembering Bail's wife as her "real mother" would kind of defeat the purpose of the conversation in the script/movie. In real life, memory is very fallible, and it'd be believable for someone to mistake memories or identifications. However, this scene is about Luke and Leia reconstructing the pieces of their heritage. As a scene in this film, it makes more sense for her memories to be genuine/accurate, I think.
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Nov 8, 2012
  11. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    If two people are fighting side-by-side in a war, how is one "serving" the other?

    Which is irrelevant for two reasons: she said served, not served with, which has an entirely different connotation; she has no idea Anakin is her father at that point so she's certainly not talking about him.

    Wonderful. But since Obi-Wan was a confirmed liar well before there ever was a PT, what does this have to do with alleged OT-PT inconsistency?

    The kind of person who would insist on carrying Obi-Wan from the Invisible Hand's spire, even against the Chancellor's wishes? Trying to use Anakin's behavior after his turn is illogical nonsense, given that we always knew they fought ( and thus by your own definition stopped being friends ) after he turned.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Nov 8, 2012
  12. PMT99 Force Ghost

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    The same way a sports team or military group serves each other, by watching each other's backs.

    It doesn't matter if Leia knew that Anakin is her father or not, Obi-wan still served with her actual father, Anakin but he never served nor served with her foster father, Bail.

    EVERYTHING.

    Obi-wan should've been the one to discover Anakin, be amazed at how strongly the force was with Anakin, vouched for him when the Council rejected Anakin, and took it upon himself to train Anakin as a Jedi. NOT QUI-GON!!!! Everything that Qui-Gon has done for Anakin should've been Obi-wan doing that stuff for him and they should've had a real brotherly, dream team type of partnership, not some forced stepparent/stepchild union. Even when Anakin and Obi-wan managed to bond in ROTS, Anakin was quick to turn against Obi-wan without a second thought which damages the whole "Anakin was a good friend" concept.

    Even before he turned, Anakin didn't respect Obi-wan nor did he obeyed his orders. Anakin always valued PalpSidious' "wisdom" more than he valued Obi-wan's teachings.
  13. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    While there will be responses that Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship was close enough to satisfy a lot of fans and technically match the descriptions in the OT, I'd just like to point out that what PMT is describing here is what was originally planned, from the time of ROTJ through the earliest drafts of TPM. A lot of fans got a lot of different ideas from the OT, and lots of crazy speculation came out of it (OB-1 as a clone, etc). However, this is a point that comes up again and again, and it's not because of random chance. Obi-Wan discovering Anakin was the plan, and I think this version of the story still comes across when given a naive reading.

    Again, I'm not arguing that the trilogies don't or can't fit (of course they can), but that PMT's point is an entirely natural area of dissonance for some people.
  14. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    Nope. Military personnel would never say they "serve" one another. They serve with other soldiers, but they serve the people/their nation/the government or a Head of State (such as the Queen in Britain). Bail being a Senator is actually more in line with what was shown in the OT than if he were active military. Plus, Leia is a Senator, so it's not unlikely that her father was one as well.

    No, Obi-Wan served Bail because the Jedi serve the Senate. The very word "serve" implies a hierarchical relationship. You don't serve your fellow soldiers. Those who serve take orders. Bail, as a Senator, gave out orders (at least until Palpatine grabbed power).

    Obi-Wan did take it upon himself to train Anakin -- he even said to Yoda that he would train him without the approval of the Council. To take upon oneself means to undertake a task or devote oneself to a task, which is what Obi-Wan did. That he did so at Qui-Gon's behest is not a contradiction. Plus, the stepparent/stepchild union was heavily implied by the OT. Luke, as a young man, is deemed "too old" for training, indicating that Jedi start training in their early teens at the latest. Thus, a parent-child bond was always going to be in the equation according to that line.

    Plus, Anakin wasn't so quick to turn against Obi-Wan. Did you not notice how difficultly he struggled with his decision once Palpatine revealed his identity? How he tried to do the right thing and inform Mace Windu of Palpatine? How he agonized in the Council chamber with his decision? How he tried to get Mace Windu to take Palpatine into custody? It's only when he became an accomplice in Mace's murder that Anakin fully succumbed to Palpatine.

    Moreover, I would hardly say that someone that repeatedly risks their life to save yours is not a good friend. How many times does Anakin try to save Obi-Wan in the PT?

    --He saves him from the nest of Gundarks (though this one was only mentioned)
    --He saves him as he is falling on Coruscant
    --He saves Obi-Wan from Dooku's attack
    --He saves Obi-Wan as they attempt to enter the Invisible Hand by pushing his ship into the landing bay
    --He carries him on his back (even against Palpatine's order) as they try to escape

    But if Anakin had valued Obi-Wan's teachings more, why would he have turned? That's completely illogical. Of course he respected Palpatine's teachings more, otherwise he would not have turned to the Dark Side. The very fact that Darth Vader exists reflects this point. I don't see how that's a contradiction. In fact, it's a necessity, per the OT.
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  15. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Which is still irrelevant for the same two reasons. The quote's not about Anakin, so it wouldn't matter if it matched up with Anakin's life story, and it doesn't speak of Obi-Wan serving "with" anyone. The word "with" does not appear.

    As has already been said, he served the Senate, of which Bail was a part. Or he could have assisted Bail directly in some Clone Wars incident that we haven't seen.

    Nothing in all that refers to Obi-Wan's lying. So, again, the "lying is bad" stance which appeared in the earlier post has no relevance to the issue of alleged inconsistency between the films.

    Even though the OT never said that Obi-Wan discovered Anakin.

    We all watched as Obi-Wan was amazed at Anakin's midichlorian count.

    He did take it upon himself to train Anakin as a Jedi. He was not forced to adhere to Qui-Gon's wishes; he could have acquiesced to letting Anakin be trained by an experienced Master.

    Not turning against Obi-Wan damages the whole "turned to the dark side" and "dueled Obi-Wan in a volcano" concept. Trying to turn consistency with the OT into inconsistency with the OT would be a good magic trick if you could pull it off.

    The gunship scene in AOTC says otherwise.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Nov 8, 2012
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  16. PMT99 Force Ghost

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    But when Anakin was in the council chamber, he had already made up his mind about helping PalpSidious. Even if Mace had taken Sidious into custody, Anakin would still need to pump out information from Sidious on how to save Padme. PalpSidious will then blackmail Anakin into betraying and helping him murder all the Jedi in exchange for this information so Anakin was going to turn against Obi-wan no matter what.

    Any Jedi could've done the same for Obi-wan. In fact, 200 Jedi went to Geonosis to rescue Obi-wan in AOTC.

    I'm just saying that if Anakin were loyal to Obi-wan, he wouldn't have betrayed him but I understand that, as TOSCHISTATION pointed out, that this was bound to happen since ESB/ROTJ retconned the whole Vader killing Luke's father plot angle.

    But there is plenty of relevance because if George had stick to his original plotline for the Obi-wan/Anakin trilogy, then we wouldn't be having this conversation. Before the prequels even existed, I was okay with Obi-wan lying only about Vader killing Anakin but now that the prequels are out, we see that Obi-wan has been lying about everything concerning Anakin. 1 lie was enough but 100 lies is when you lose all credibility.

    But it did imply that Obi-wan was the only Jedi to meet Anakin. There was no indication from the OT that Anakin was found by any other Jedi especially Qui-Gon.

    But Obi-wan didn't sound amazed. It seemed like he was giving out an "Ehhh" reaction like he wasn't impressed.

    But Obi-wan was forced to adhere to Qui-Gon's wishes. Like you said, Obi-wan could've let Anakin be trained by a more experienced Master but I find it strange that he didn't nor did he bother to ask Yoda or any other Jedi to help him with Anakin's training.

    There wouldn't be any inconsistencies to the Anakin/Obi-wan relationship if George hadn't rearranged certain plot points from the OT or better yet, not make Anakin and Vader the same person.

    The beginning of the lightsaber duel begs to differ. Anakin would rather fight Dooku alone than tag team with Obi-wan against him and for that, Anakin got himself electrocuted out of the fight leaving Obi-wan to fight Dooku alone.
  17. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    How did this become a debate about Obi-Wan's credibility or what you're okay with? Who cares what you're okay with?

    Wrong. Yoda talked about his characteristics. Kind of hard to do if he hadn't met him.

    There was no indication from the OT that Anakin was not found by other Jedi.

    You must have watched a different TPM than everyone else in the universe. I guess Obi-Wan pointing out that it's a higher count than Yoda means he's completely blase about it.

    He said he would train Anakin even if the Council refused to support the decision.

    Anakin's behavior after turning is not an inconsistency, and dwelling on TESB's retcon doesn't support the argument for PT inconsistency.
  18. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    I think Anakin probably was supposed to have met Yoda at some point (or at least, it was an open possibility at the time ESB was made). However, Yoda describes Anakin at the same time he says of Luke "this one, a long time have I watched" -- presumably, watched through the Force. So it's not implausible that Yoda had never met Anakin but had only known of him through Obi-Wan and/or visions in the Force.
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Nov 8, 2012
  19. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    The bottom line is that this is no contradiction. The whole thing about Anakin not knowing other Jedi was made up. It wasn't something presented in the films.
  20. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    I don't think so. I think he decided that he would do whatever it took to save Padmé, but I don't think he was particularly eager to help Palpatine. Don't forget, when confronted with the scene of Palpatine and Mace, Anakin looks back and forth between them with a torn expression on his face. He even says, "He must stand trial" to Mace. I think what he wanted was for Mace simply to arrest Palpatine so that Anakin could get the information he needed to save Padmé. But even when Mace moved to strike down Palpatine, Anakin didn't kill him -- he just disarmed him (after Palpatine had said he was "too weak"). But when Palpatine killed Mace, Anakin had implicated himself in his murder and I think Anakin finally succumbed then, seeing no way out of his situation. At least, without making sacrifices he wasn't willing to make. But it took a great deal of manipulation on Palpatine's part to get him there.

    Had Mace simply arrested Palpatine, though, I don't think Anakin would have turned.

    And you don't think Obi-Wan considers those Jedi good friends? People he worked with amiably and who, in some cases, died for him? Admittedly, he might not have known them very well on a personal level, but he did have a very close relationship with Anakin. If someone you'd known very well for over a decade repeatedly saved your life, are you really telling me that you wouldn't consider them a "good friend"? How would you think of them? As a pest? A nuisance? A bad "friend"?

    ...And then jumped right back in to protect Obi-Wan from Dooku's killing blow. Anakin rushing into a fight just indicates that he's in the heat of the moment and that he's impulsive. I would think it's more of a reflection of his youth and the little fact that it's, you know, his first battle in a war. He doesn't hesitate to risk his life if it means protecting Obi-Wan though.

    Plus, ROTS shows us that he learned from that mistake:

    "This time we will do it together."

    "I was about to say that."

    :D
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  21. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    Apparently PMT99 does, if it's all the same to you.

    Right. It's just as implausible as Owen talking about Anakin's "characteristics" *, while having only met Anakin briefly instead of knowing him for some time...o_O=D=

    * "He didn't hold with your father's ideals. Thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved." - Ben, SW


    The 'bottom line' is that the naive reading of ROTJ on the point of Obi-Wan discovering Anakin, is supported by the evidence (that is, things like the first draft of TPM), as Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn has already pointed out (but which you conveniently ignored).

    'Harmonization' only shows that the two trilogies can be made to fit after-the-fact. It does not prove anything regarding original intent/context of the old films.


    You got that right, as PMT99 didn't claim such a thing.



    [face_laugh] Also known as the "OT quoque" fallacy.

    I must have missed the part in ROTJ where the Emperor or Vader tells Luke to "kill all of your Rebel friends!!! Only THEN will you become strong enough in the dark side of the Force!!"

    "OT quoque" fail. Do not pass go.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Nov 8, 2012
  22. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    PMT99 cares what PMT99's okay with? [face_laugh] So much for meaningful criticism. And this has what to do with the charges of inconsistency?

    How many people in the theater watching ROTJ had been provided with the first draft of TPM? In what way is the first draft of TPM an OT film? The bottom line is that "Obi-Wan discovered Anakin" is not in ROTJ. It was never canon and never made it into any of the films. In a ROTJ-era context it would be nothing more than fan invention. Trying to fabricate a contradiction between films by resorting to first drafts is a desperate and pointless tactic. First drafts are not films.

    You haven't shown that "the two trilogies" don't fit on this point. In case you've already forgotten, you only demonstrated that the first draft of TPM is not the same as the released film of TPM. That is a discrepancy between the first draft of one PT film and the final version of the same PT film. It does not magically become a discrepancy between trilogies just because Lucas is always wrong.

    Of course not, what was I thinking?

    What is the point of this tactic of shamelessly denying the factual record? Buying time in the hope that a better argument might eventually come along?

    How convenient.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Nov 8, 2012
  23. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    Can't speak for TS but the point I was trying to make was simply that it's no accident that naive speculation on the PT based on OT-only viewings are somewhat consistent across fandom. If I told you that my pet black cat came from in my yard, you'd get a certain mental image. If I then told you that in actuality, my neighbor walked through my yard while holding the cat, then placed it in my attic, and that the cat was originally orange but I stained him with ink over the summer... you could make it fit but you'd have to do some mental gymnastics.

    I see your point that the films can work together. And they can. But I don't think it's unreasonable for fans to draw the naive conclusions too, because those are the things connoted by the film alone (ROTJ), even if they aren't said explicitly (see my above example for how this works). This is backed up by the behind-the-scenes information, which is why it's brought up so often.

    I guess I just feel like it's important to keep the original contexts in circulation, because when people have complaints like PMT's, they can then learn something about why those same problems keep coming up over and over. Like I said, it's not random chance.
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Nov 8, 2012
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  24. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

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    "OT quoque" won't help you here.

    Once again, where in ROTJ did the Emperor or Vader tell Luke "kill all of your Rebel friends !!! Only THEN will you become strong enough in the dark side of the Force!!"?????



    ^^^^^^This.
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Nov 8, 2012
  25. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    And you know this how? Scientific, comprehensive polling of the fan base? Assumption? Grapevine? It's still an argument by ( imagined ) majority, and as such it doesn't have any particular validity.

    Not can, do.

    They are, at most, things that some people apparently imagined due to seeing ROTJ. But that does not make them things "connoted" by the film in a global sense. Just things that some people thought were connoted by the film. As usual the charge of the PT contradicting the OT is really about something else entirely: the PT contradicting the imaginative assumptions of fans while failing to contradict the actual content of the OT. Fans need to remember that their own inventions did not retroactively become OT content.

    You're not even talking about an interpretation of ROTJ backed up by behind-the-scenes information from the production of the OT. You're talking about an interpretation of ROTJ presumed to be backed up by behind-the-scenes information from the production of a different film released 16 years later. That's a little different. First drafts are not canon. The average theatrical viewer of TPM was unlikely to have seen the first draft of TPM. The average theatrical viewer of ROTJ was even more unlikely to have seen it, unless skilled in time travel.

    The Death Star material is one of the better parts of the film, you should watch it someday. It's an Ewok-free facility!

    No one ever has a problem when OT Lucas does it, but for some reason it's a problem when PT Lucas does it. Now where have we seen this kind of thing before? [face_thinking]
    [IMG]
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Nov 8, 2012