ST ST Complimentary Discussion Thread

I think the subversion in TLJ is overrated - ie just how much it actually subverts anything beyond expectations, and I'm not sure Rey's life on Jakku (brilliant as it is) is subversion at all - unless you mean JJ uses visuals to show that the galaxy has moved on from the galactic civil war. I think it's meta, certainly, but I'm not sure it's particularly subversive at all. If anything, people keep listing it in their favourite nostalgic moments for giving them the classic SW feels in this very thread. Doesn't seem too subversive to me.

 

Honestly, I really love this part of TFA, and I think it’s easily the best part of post-Disney Star Wars. A Day in the life of Rey is subversive because it’s only “about” the Skywalkers stylistically and not substantively. It works wonderfully because it features characters who are not chosen ones or critical players, but regular people, the kind of people that history forgets. It is a very socialist/populist/christian interpretation of Star Wars, and John Williams adds the necessary magic. It features four main characters, two of which are fantastic and two are realistic. Kylo and Poe, and Finn and Rey respectively. And as they act out a reenactment of ANH’s opening hour, it is really very good.

IMO, the Jakuu opening of TFA is a post-war montage. It’s a brief summary of “what happened” after ROTJ, and I think it actually works quite well within itself. As far as being thematically subversive, it works as an inversion of history. If the OT and PT were about the Napoleons, King Arthurs, Julius Ceasars, then ADintLoR is about everyone else, including everybody who forgot about who they were supposed to care about. It is realistically amnesiatic, in ways both positive and negative.

 

I think Rey on Jakku is my favourite section of the ST so far. The hum drum monotony of her life, in such stark contrast to the week that follows, the Empire in crashed ruin on the planet - all of it, the effect of which is multiplied by John Williams. Fabulous.

 

Yep. It communicates an important message in a visual way. The Empire fell and it has been defeated for a long time. Since then it has been somewhat uneventful (not just for Rey) but that peace is about to be shattered. Amazing little scene.

 

"Dead heroes. No leaders." - Leia

 

Luke: The Sacred Jedi texts!!!
Yoda: Oh? Read them have you?
Luke: Well I...
Yoda: Page turners they were not!

I just adore this whole scene. Luke is centering on his anxieties and Yoda responds perfectly.

MJ

 

It's going to be interesting to see if the dice moments in TLJ grow in power following the Solo film. Sometimes prequel explanations have been able to enrich moments within the OT. Specifically thinking right now of Obi-Wan reminiscing about Anakin to Luke and/or how the movie Rogue one film enriches various aspects of ANH.

I like to imagine Han telling tall tales over drinks with Han and Leia and both of them laughing at all of the stupid things he did as a younger guy and Luke and Leia reminsicing about moments like that toward the end of TLJ.

 

I have a better appreciation of the Finn and Rose scenes now. They were just overwhelmed by Luke/Rey/Snoke/Kylo when I saw the movie the first couple of times.

 

That the interesting aspect to repeats. On first viewing you really want to spend as much time with the mystery box concepts to get to a lot of the info you’ve been speculating on. So, any and all cutaways from the Force plot have the mind wanting to get back to it but once you’ve experienced it a couple times some of the other plots and the details and performances that are there can be appreciated more.

 

I loved Kylo's "please."

It's the one time he isn't demanding anything. The 180 in his behavior is emotional and had enormous impact. He's being honest with himself and with Rey in that fleeting moment.

 

Does anyone else get the sense that TLJ is a very personal film for RJ? It seems to me if Kylo and Rey represent two halves of a person and that person, it's reasonable to conclude, represents in some ways, RJ, his experience and challenge in making a SW film. Meeting your mentor and discovering they're only human and not perfect, godlike right off the bat has Lucas and other mentors, but particularly since we must consider Luke, written all over it. Like it was necessary in order to proceed in RJ's own quest for personal identity in the SW Universe. He needed to deal with that immediately in order to proceed. Also, the idea that Rey needs to define herself and stop relying on others to fill that void is another very personal idea in relation to RJ's writing TLJ and fulfilling his own ambitions, dreams and self discovery. Conversely, Kylo's hatred for Lucas can be interpreted as the difficulty of contending with Lucas' legacy as creator of SW or the struggle to figure out what Lucas was trying to convey, which at one time or another has frustrated all of us. What is balance? How does this Chosen One idea work within the saga? For example.

 

Agreed. As much as he's an a-hole, he truly is alone, and in his own twisted way I think he believes Rey joining him will be good for both of them.

Rewatching the film for the first time on Blu, I agree that Canto Bight (bar Slowen-lo's goofy voice) isn't a problem for me. I like the change of pace and the thematic aspect of it. If there's an issue in the film it's occasional bumps in tone and a lack of contrition on Poe's behalf. All the scenes are well shot and acted, but I think Poe showing remorse for the loss of life he unwittingly helped, and winning back the respect of the survivors would have solved that issue for me. I think the Luke stuff is perfect, and damn if Yoda's scene and Lesson 1 aren't two of the best scenes in the saga. Mark's performance may just be the best in the series. I also have greater appreciation of Snoke in the film. I personally would revise some of his more on the nose lines towards his end, but Serkis nails him, and the way he serves Kylo's story is superb.

I do wonder if we will get more insight into why he feared the seed of the Jedi so much, or if it's just general "bad guy wants hope stamped out". I think when we all talk about RJ hating on the Jedi and the pervious films, people don't factor in Snoke's dialogue about the Jedi and Skywalker to both Kylo and then Rey. Snoke is hellbent on stamping them out as the key threat to his plans.

 

The Snoke scenes, particularly with Rey, are rapidly rising head and shoulders above everything else (even Luke - YIKES!) in the movie.

Especially his Palpatine/Deflector Shield moment when he mocks Rey and Ben's suggestibility to the force connection he used to entrap them both.

 

Serkis is such a unique actor. He’s really cornered the market on motion capture and for good reason. Gollum, Caesar and Snoke couldn’t be more different.

 

He's like the Lon Chaney of mocap.

 

I was thinking more Mel Blanc.

 

He has real presence as Snoke. I know Snoke gets dissed a fair bit. But he does exude real menace. And the CG is A class in this film.

 

You're despicable.

 

And what helps the menace are the moments when he's almost amiable, or even slightly humble as when he notes his incorrect assumption that Luke would rise against Kylo.

The earlier quote from him brings up another highlight, which is the construction of some lines in particular -- the parallelism used to help the flow, to build and release tension.

"It was I who bridged your minds. I stoked Ren's conflicted soul. I knew he was not strong enough to hide it from you. And you were not wise enough to resist the bait."

Of course, the effect is also dependent on the acting. So in that last sentence, for example, Serkis plays it like three phrasal units. Then there's the more dramatic part:

"My worthy apprentice, son of darkness, heir apparent to Lord Vader: Where there was conflict, I now sense resolve; where there was weakness, strength. Now, complete your training, and fulfill your destiny."

He even gets the pause between "weakness" and "strength", so the first 's' sound doesn't spill into the next, which would be an awkward step in the flow.
Hamill gets to demonstrate this, too, at least once. I'm not sure if I got the wording right for the fast part, but the point is the effect.

"Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction and pain and death, at the end of everything I love because of what he will become, and for the briefest moment of pure instinct I thought I could stop it.
"It passed like a fleeting shadow. And I was left with shame, and with consequence. And the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened boy whose master had failed him."

It's a rush right up to the fateful moment. Then it slows, but keeps the tension. The penultimate sentence uses monosyllabic words until the last one, a change in the flow as the "consequence" rises above the "shame" and sets up the final statement that releases the tension and caps the whole thing.

 

There's a couple of "fleeting shadows" of Sidious which pass over Snoke.

The first time he says "Vader" has the same sort of cadence as when Palpatine christens his new apprentice.

And when Snoke closes his eyes to sense Kylo's dark intent, the same reverie paints his face as it did Palpatine's in that same scene in ROTS when he describes Anakin's potency "The force is strong with you...".

 

I love the clash of personalities between Holdo and Poe, juxtaposed when the stakes had risen:

Poe :"No let's!" "Holdo! Can it lady! We had a fleet, now we're down to one ship and you've told us nothing! Tell us we that have a plan! That there is hope!. [frustrated]

Holdo "When I served under Leia.... She would say that hope is like the sun. If you only believe in it when you can see it [cool and calm]

Poe: You'll never make it through the night. [realistic]

Holdo: "Yes" [cool and calm]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Holdo: "A storm trooper and a who now...is doing what?" [frustrated]

Poe: "They are trying to save us. This is our best chance to escape. You have got to give Finn and Rose all the time that you can" [cool and calm]

Holdo: You have bet the survival of the Resistance...on bad odds and put us all at risk There's no time. Load the transports! [realistic]

Poe: Yes, I was afraid you'd say that. Vice Admiral Holdo...I am relieving you of your command...for that the survival of this ship, its crew and the Resistance. [cool and calm]

In the former: Poe is rushing and delirious almost and Holdo maintaining a civility. Then the latter, shows how Poe is trying to be much more stable. And Holdo not cool and calm this time. Yet, since Holdo is a senior in rank to Poe she is, with all that said and done, ultimately sharper experience-wise than Poe.

It's also interesting that for both Holdo and Poe's motives, neither revealed their plans to each other. Early on with Finn and Rose Poe says : "You're right C3PO its a need to know plan and she doesn't" So it's kind of rich and funny that Poe tells Holdo "you told us nothing" . Holdo in retrospect just as feisty and willing to risk, as Poe. (like she kicks the exhaust valve).

MJ

 

Sidious is one of my all time favorites but I love the moments where Snoke just seems so calm and jovial as well. His voice is just so smooth and his body language with his arms seems so relaxed and elegant.

The Emperor is awesome but at times he’s a little bit Wicked Witch. I still love him and his intensity and his cackles and his exaggerated pretend sulking when describing the shield generator that almost reminds of a sad mime routine but there’s something wonderful about Snoke fighting off his own laughter in a more jovial and less maniacal way while still doing horrible things. Snoke seems like he wishes he was sipping on the most expensive booze in the galaxy as he commands the throne. I also love Serkis’ body language when he tilts his head and says, “Skywalker, I assumed...” or how he smiled a bit and so gently says “Young Rey. Welcome.”

 

The way Kylo snarls, "I will have killed the last Jedi!" is deliciously cheesy.

 

Agreed, as is "Blow that ship outta the sky!". Driver really commits.

I love Palps in ROTJ, but he's diminished a little for me by ROTS where the ham factor is just too much and he's not as well written. I think if Snoke's final few lines weren't so on the nose I might prefer him to Palps. But they're not so Palps still edges it for me.

 

I think Snoke's last few lines are great. He's so self satisfied with his own prescience he can give commentary on what people are about to do in such tortured, spoon fed terms. The schmuck!