Full Series The *Official* Ahsoka in The Clone Wars thread (general discussion)

Sexualisation of Twi'leks might be Eu-invention- in Rotj there is Oola- who is dancing girl like Leia later- of course she is sexualised- Bib Fortuna (thank goodness) wears less revealing clothing .... later another dancing girl Lyn Me was added- still there were human (liea) and rodian (Greeata) and still we don't see many rodian or human jedi dressing like that...

Pt continued eu-tradition of Twi'leks as sexsymbols (Sebulba's slaves, Orn Frees aides- which were originally humans in TPM btw) of the galaxy- but of course Lucas originally created Oola to be "sexy dancing girl" but he didn't show any free Twi'leks in their home dressing like that- they were "pleasure slaves" ... Togruta's however were designed after Twi'leks for AOTC (with more bizarre head) so it's natural that many eu-creators confused their culture- Shaak Ti was seen wearing jedirobe/skirt and Ahsoka Ashla was youngling- they don't really tell anything about their species culture- actually many Twi'leks do wear "properly"- like Finn Eertay... she has Luminara's bodymodel - so it's stereotypic to say it's their culture- Ryloth is hot- so it's natural that they don't use much clothing... same with Shaak Ti on Felucia- Felucia must be damn hot and humid- wearing jedirobes there would be very uncomfortable (Starkiller is there without shirt too ) also Shaak Ti is chieftain of felucian primitive tribe- and that's the way felucians wear.....

 

Good point- only one member of the species (Shaak Ti)is not good example - if you would pick Palpatine as the example of humans- damn all humans would look very ugly and evil - if you pick Padmé all humans are peaceful and idealistic... still Ahsoka Ashla is youngling and all youngligs wear robes that's the code- it's stated in visual dictionary that after youngling is chosen to be padawan he or she can dresses how he/she likes.... but since all these hybrids seem to be common in TCW- maybe Ahsoka is half Twi'lek after all- would explain her skincolor and montrals seem to be very short compared to Adul't ones- even though she is already 15 or so

 

I stand by my point, even if no one cares what it was.

 

What was it? Personally, I hated TFU Shaak Ti. Her voice, her clothes (or lack of them), her face, etc...

 

Felucia is a very humid place, and Shaak Ti's Jedi robes are heavy robes.

 

The only real excuse Shaak Ti had in TFU was "most video games are still pitched to a male audience, and thus many female characters in games are expected to be prime chunks of T&A instead of wearing anything practical or sensible". But that's another 'watch Harpalyce froth at the mouth in annoyed rage' rant for another time.

 

EXACTLY!!! THANKS GG!

I don't follow the EU but I agree with you. One of the reasons Ashoka's outfits bother me is because she's a Togruta hence my quote:

The point I was trying to was if the CW team was planing to make Anakin's Padawan dress like that why no opt for female Twi'lek instead of a female Togruta? They would have their excuse to do so and it would have made much more since for the reason we both gave in our previous posts.

 

Okay just to get an outside perspective of the clothing I showed the new designed to my roommate who has seen about 5 or 6 clone wars episodes with me but each one had Ahsoka in it. I asked my roommate if anything was wrong with how she dresses and my roommate asked whats wrong with it "She is a rebel jedi right, not a traditional one, so whats wrong with wearing clothes that said she is a rebel."

I don't know but I thought it might be a good idea to get other people's opinion outside of the hard core fans view of the issue.

 

Yet, it's still a big jump from heavy robes to almost no clothes at all.

 

Anakin was a rebel too and he wasn't showing off his attributes.

The wore-drove of another rebel..

[image=http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/194/a/6/Toph__s_Wardrobe_by_DressUp_Avatar.png]

 

Great, now I'm going to be stuck imagining rebellious Anakin who has stolen his costume from He-Man fighting alongside new 'dark-and-edgy' Ahsoka...

Seriously though, to me it just seems out of character.

Let me see if I can put on my best Tim Gunn impersonation and explain why I'm thinking this. I'm working through a migraine so I can only see like half my field of vision, LOL, so please excuse typos!

So if you accept that fashion is art, you have to look at what the function of that fashion is. Although defining art is sort of like nailing jello to a tree - you aren't going to win, no matter what you do - my working definition is that art is a type of communication. So you have to ask: what are these fashion designs communicating? This is especially important, I think, in sci-fi - it's a sort of visual shorthand that we're all drawing on to make sense of a new situation. Just look at the careful design of Vader's mask.

With that said, it's also quite clear that the costume design team is looking out for this in the Clone Wars. Padme's opulent outfits are a great example. They're opulent and grandiose, even when she's "off duty". It lets the watchers at home know immediately that she's a person of power - she doesn't need to pare down her outfits to fit into the line of duty (and when she DOES dress more simply, it has extra emphasis). What she's wearing is all part of that visual shorthand to viewers (and to other characters in-universe) - the HEY, I'M IMPORTANT regalia of a senator, or more simply a person who has the money/time/resources/etc to go around dressed like she's just walked off of an Alexander McQueen runway.

The other real 'statement pieces' we see characters wearing (besides the politicians) are the Sith. (Generally the Jedi and clones are geared towards practicality - more on that later.) Again, just remember the careful construction of Vader's suit, both in-universe and out-of-universe (e.g. the production team), to look intimidating. The Sith have an in-universe tradition of wearing slightly impractical clothing for one purpose: to make themselves look more scary. (As for what I mean about slightly impractical, please refer to Edna Mode's rant against CAPES! in The Incredibles.) They're all about fear and using fear as a weapon, after all. Just check out the concept art that led to Asajj Ventress - http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:Assajj_concept-art.jpg There's also an element of vanity in the Sith that I think the Jedi lack. The Sith are all about self-importance - "me, me, me, my power, my success, all about me!" I see it as part of the dark side.

On the flip side, the Jedi are about humility. Plain robes and tunics in neutral colors - that's practically the uniform. Even Anakin is wearing basically the same thing, a very practical tunic/etc without embellishments, just in a shifted color scheme. The closest we come to decoration is Obi-Wan's bits of armor he's wearing, which serve a very practical purpose. Even Aayla Secura's outfit, though perhaps a bit more risque, is not really full of ornamentation or decorative flourishes.

Meanwhile, Ahsoka's new outfit DOES contain a lot of decorative flourishes - stuff that's there just to, well, look pretty, with no practical purpose, like those diamond cutouts. To me it seems just overwrought - and not Jedi-like. Instead it looks like something a Sith would wear - a Sith trying to intimidate, distract, and just plain be a bit vain about how they look.

With that said, a lot of this is subjective. But I'm just tossing this out here as my opinion from a fashion point of view.

 

My apologies.

What a well thought out post! I must say I agree...

 

Yeah and women never change clothes

Felucia is damnably hot- being there with huge skirt is not only uncomfortable- but very impratical- also Shaak was part of Felucian tribe- felucians may not like clothes.... it's their culture and Shaak Ti wanted to respect it by using traditional chieftain clothes...

Well that doesn't explain shirtless Starkiller it's for gays then? Felucia is humid i have no problems with TFU Shaak Ti... actually she sounds pretty much same as TCW-one but lacks spanish accent..... actually Shaak's robe is very impractical in battle- it's easier to fight without clothes at all....

 

I don't like the way you are stereotyping Twi'leks now - movies shows us many Twi'leks with proper clothing- actually only non-slave with the revealing clothing is Aayla Secura (just mention someone moviecanonical- or even TCW-canonical with revealing clothing- civilians have dresses and Ryloth is hot as well... dancing girls are slaves or just dancing girls...)... Ayy Vida has skintight costume in ep2 (nightclub- where many humanwomen had revealing clothing as well) and there is some in opera house but there is as many humans with revealing clothing as Twi'leks in movies...

 

SwashbucklingJedi, that answer is very fine and good, if you ignore the out-of-world context that we're dealing with. Seriously, go open up most any MMO, or any game really, and you'll have a field day with this. The smallest breast size you can manage will be still quite hefty, if there's even a slider for it (Age of Conan is especially bad for this)... and let's face it, in WoW you can find tons and tons of impractical armor that makes no sense, but it's only impractical for the gals.

[image=http://borderhouseblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/wow_gear_loftylegguards.png]
^See what I mean? What the [redacted] is this [redacted]?!

http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=541 is a much broader discussion of it. I see her point - sometimes the occasional bit of goofy armor is ok. But Shaak Ti is only shown in this skimpy outfit, and to me, that's a bit problematic for TFU. Unlike the author there, I don't think that women have gotten anywhere near even de jure equality, and I do believe that NONE of us are above the influence of media stereotypes. The author does give a good summary of the crux of the issue, however:

But this thread ultimately isn't about that much, much larger conversation, so I'll get off my soapbox. But it's worth considering there. At some point we all need to step back and remember that this universe is created, and there are reasons - seen and unseen - shaping how it's being created. "Well they just dress like that in-universe" isn't really a great excuse - WHY did the creator CHOOSE to make them dress like that?

 

Yeah i get your point- but Tfu isn't really like that- well... yeah it's bit excuse for slight clothing- but there is great in-universe reason for Shaak's clothing- and she has no idiotical "boobiearmor" like there is in ridiculous MMO:s .... yes if you're going for a fight- remember to protect your nipples from a sword that seems to be message of those designs I haven't played Wow or Age of Conan so i cannot say much more about that... still Ahsoka has pretty normal sized breasts - well-developed for 15 year old but still normal- so you cannot claim TCW from being unrealistic at that point ... damn is this really what we talk here nowadays..... about Ahsoka's boobs?!?!? ... i want to stop this discussion now and apologize- i didn't mean anything dirty... this time

still Aayla's outfit was ridiculous on AlzocIII in Republic heroes ... really even ahsoka would be blue there it's supposedly cold place- in-universe fact seems to be Aayla is exhibitionist and Ahsoka idolizes her- let's face it

 

LOL!!

Don't worry, I think I brought up Ahsoka's boobs before you did I'm pretty happy that they aren't huge, too. Not that I think any jedi lady would be too happy about some huge sweater kittens... because honestly, ladies value sports bras for a good reason. Having your chest going one way and you going another while you're running, jumping, etc.... it HURTS! I'll bet good money that breast reduction surgery is fully covered in the Jedi healthcare plan. That's another reason why I find her outfit kind of implausible... yeah, okay, she may be hot, but she's well endowed enough that leaving the girls so unsecured is going to hurt.

What were we talking about again? Oh right! ...Ahsoka's new outfit! LOL.

Yeah, I really object to it simply because it doesn't seem to fit what a Jedi would wear, but I've already rambled about that.

 

Your statement doesn't change the sad fact that Twi'lek adult females are naturally sexualized; heck Aayla was apparently as child:

Quite frankly, I don't find this decent either:

[image=http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/4079/ep3ia903483qo.jpg]

[image=http://thumbs2.modthesims.info/img/3/1/8/1/6/5/MTS2_marie_fay_593984_opera_twilek.jpg]


stereotyping was not my intent.

 

Ummm....yes.

That's essentially what I've stating for so long. That's "the" problem with Ahsoka's look - not the look itself but the reinforcement of tired old cliches.

 

I really hate Ahsoka's new shoto. It would be better with a normal lightsaber, or no lightsaber at all.

 

I just hit the wook and did my homework on Togruta females, and every one of the few we've seen so far has been a Jedi. The closest we have to a non-Jedi Togruta female is Ahsoka disguised as a Togruta princess in one of the comics, which I think takes the cake for questionable Ahsoka attire: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Zaa_Vashee

Between that, Ahsoka and Shaak Ti in TFU I think we can conclude Togruta do not have a problem showing a lot of skin. Wook informs me Togruta live as pack hunters, so presumably their culture would not be much for heavy clothing, which explains what their princesses dress like at least.

Another thing - if she were Twi'lek it would be ok for her to be dressed how she is? She'd still be a teenage Jedi, I thought that's what the source of the discomfort was.

That's a very interesting idea, I hadn't extended Sith selfishness to a physical level before. As far as this discussion goes, Shaak Ti does have some ornamentation, she and Ahsoka both wear similar but different headdresses, which wook reveals are made of Akul teeth after having killed one and worn to display that feat. Wook says they also both wear a variation on a Togruta sash, so they're allowed some embellishments, seemingly based on cultural background. Regardless Jedi are also supposed to be extremely tolerant, I can't imagine they'd take a look at how someone was dressed and give them a dark side lecture.

As for women and men and in media as a whole, I'd point out that clothing aside the image of the male body in many games (and in that blog you link to) is equally ridiculous - they all look as though they eat nothing but steroids. There's been research done to show that males who play games suffer from lower self image as a result. As to why Ahsoka is dressed like that, I said earlier I think it's to help allow younger viewers identify with her, as apart from age she has little in common with most of the younger viewers. As has been pointed out in this thread, her character doesn't at all emphasize "secondary sexual characteristics," it's all about her as a young Jedi. That leads me to think her appearance is just a hook.

 

Exactly.
Ahsoka's fine with just one.

 

I could probably write you a dissertation on all the things wrong with that image of Ahsoka as the 'princess'.

Probably one of the reasons why I'm less concerned about Ahsoka's redesign and new outfit than some is because she actually looks grown up, or at least grown enough. In that comic book image, she very much ISN'T, but is pretty clearly presented as highly sexualized - okay, maybe for the context of story since she's being sold as a slave - I'm not sure how that makes it better really?! - BUT STILL -

[image=http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081213002840/starwars/images/5/52/AhsokaSlave.jpg]

Where the hell was an editor for that who perhaps said, "Hm, maybe it is a bad idea to put a 12-14-ish barely-starting-puberty girl in a skimpy outfit, especially combined with a HEY-O OBVIOUS BDSM REFERENCE chain and collar that is as subtle as Versailles is understated, and an oh-baby open-mouthed expression straight off of the cover of a bad porno flick"?

Okay, so I may be taking it over the top. But seriously, that... it's just like a trainwreck of trainwrecks. I'll be back after I rampage some in Dragon Age to stop frothing at the mouth lol

 

I really hope we get an explanation from Filoni on why they went with a fully exposed back - diamonds cutouts down the leg - and a cutout strategically placed over Ahsoka's bosom vs. a full costume with no cutouts (like Ahsoka's spacesuit).

Filoni: "Well, people didn't like the tube top so we went with the exposed back."
Interviewer: "And no bare midriff?"
Filoni: "The peephole over her cleavage takes its place."
Interviewer: "Gotta show some flesh someplace right?"
Filoni: "It's the way of the world nowadays. What can I say?"

 

Between that, Ahsoka and Shaak Ti in TFU I think we can conclude Togruta do not have a problem showing a lot of skin. Wook informs me Togruta live as pack hunters, so presumably their culture would not be much for heavy clothing, which explains what their princesses dress like at least.

Let me repeat my question again: DO WE SEE SHAK-TI WITHOUT CLOTHES IN THE MOVIES OR TCW???

[image=http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/shaakti/img/eu_bg.jpg]


[image=http://img.youtube.com/vi/9IIXx-G7Qws/0.jpg]

[image=http://starwars.com/fans/events/sdcc_cwfaces/shaakti_img.jpg]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! she looks like a TOGRUTA JEDI!
ASHOKA DOES NOT! I don't care about a game that gives Vader's apprentice credit for the Rebellion!

Another thing - if she were Twi'lek it would be ok for her to be dressed how she is? She'd still be a teenage Jedi, I thought that's what the source of the discomfort was.


NO, but it would make her attire easier to swallow for reasons already stated. Aayla doesn't have Robes does she??? did anyone complained about it?