~ * ~ The OFFICIAL Balancing the Force Thread ~ * ~

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Valyn, May 29, 2002.

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  1. Valyn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2002
    star 8
    Seeing as how a lot of threads have been discussing what "Balancing" the Force means, I thought it would be wise to make a single thread where we could all share our opinions and thoughts. That way, people wouldn't have to constantly repeat their theories from one thread to the next, and everyone will be able to see everyone else's theory in one, convenient location.
    So, here it is. :)

    Here's my theory, taken from my Advocates of the Force thread:

    AotC Excerpt:

    "Blind we are, if the development of this clone army we could not see," Yoda remarked.
    "I think it's time to inform the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished."
    "Only the Dark Lords of the Sith know of our weakness," Yoda replied. "If informed the Senate is, multiply our enemies will."
    For the two Jedi Masters, this surprising development was troubling on several different levels.


    There's no evidence suggesting that the Sith are the ones blinding the Jedi. That would be quite a feat, wouldn't you say? For Sidious and Dooku, two Sith Lords, to put a veil over the eyes of thousands of Jedi?

    "...our ability to use the Force has diminished."

    Now, according to the EU, Yslimari are capable of repelling the Force. However, it doesn't seem as though these creatures are the cause of this problem.

    The Force, apparently, chooses who it wants to be attuned to it. Can the Force not take away that gift, then, if it deems the bearer "unworthy"?
    If I recall correctly, Ulic Qel-Droma couldn't feel the Force after his redepmtion. I've never read the story, but I think Nomi Sunrider had something to do with it. Perhaps the Force was using Sunrider as its "puppet", if you will.

    The general feel of the novel seems to emanate the theory that perhaps the Jedi are being betrayed not only by one of their number (Dooku, and possibly Jinn or Windu--according to popular rumor), but by the Force itself.

    The novelization is what inspired me to concieve such a theory. Evidence implies that the Force is indeed playing a hand in these consecutive events. First, Amidala's ship coincidentally is forced to land on Tatooine, where, coincidentally, young Anakin Skywalker lives.
    Coincidentally, Amidala has Jedi with her. Qui-Gon, coincidentally, finds Anakin while searching to repair the Queen's ship.
    Coincidentally, Qui-Gon dies, leaving Kenobi with the task of training Anakin. Why is this a coincidence? Because it seems as though Jinn would have been a better mentor. We know that Kenobi fails.

    So, the Force, apparently, planned for all of this happen. It seems to want Kenobi to take Anakin as his apprentice because it knows Kenobi will fail. In turn, it knows that Kenobi will redeem himself by training Luke Skywalker, who will assist the Chosen One in restoring Balance to the Force.

    It seems as though the Force is choreographing every single action that is transpiring in the PT. Everything. Kenobi is sent to protect Padme because, coincidentally, he was the only Jedi Knight she's familiar with, due to the events of years past.
    Coincidentally, Anakin is his Padawan. Coincidentally, Kenobi has obligations elsewhere, leaving Anakin and Padme alone.
    The Force, evidently, is behind not only the finding and fall of Anakin, the first failure of Kenobi, the conception of Luke, but is also behind the process of restoring Balance to itself.

    Everything seems well coordinated, in my opinion.


    Now, the above theory only speculates the Force's involvement with the quest to restore Balance. Balance, in my opinion, is probably achieved through Luke Skywalker and his designs to construct a new Jedi Order with ideals different from the previous Order. :)

    Edit:

    Whoops. I ended the italics code a little too late after my AotC excerpt. [face_blush]
  2. Skylark Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2002
    star 4
    No!!! Keep the independent threads alive I tell you!!!
  3. DVader316 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2000
    star 7
    I suggest using a teetet totter to balance the Force. It works for me everytime.
  4. Skylark Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2002
    star 4
    Ugh! Keep the small threads alive I tell you!
  5. Valyn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2002
    star 8
    DVader: :eek: :confused:

    So, I guess, in your opinion, Anakin failed? I mean, never employed a teeter-totter, now did he? :p

    Edit:

    Skylark: If you keep this up, I'm changing my signature. :p

  6. StrongJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 1
    I think Valyn is right that the force makes a path and all follow that path.

    I think that this also aplies to why Kyp took an agresive stance against the Vong(Darkside). and luke is more pascifistic(Lightside).
  7. Wedge 88 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 1999
    star 6
    Lucas himself said that Anakin brings balance to the force by killing Palpatine at the end of RotJ, with the help of his children.

    He is the choosen one, he brought balance by helping to bring the Dark Side into power and then destroying it.
  8. starwarsfannumber1 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 6, 2002
    star 2
    Good job Valyn.

    The point of my thread was that, while Anikan did bring balance to the force, why didn't Yoda and company sense that it would go to the dark side.

    Skylark or someone mentioned that Windu might be a traitor, and, so to speak, is pulling the wool over the Jedi Council's eyes. You probably got that from the thread posted on the Movie dicussion forum, I think it's being debated over there.

    Any way if there are any mods reading this you can lock my thread ANIKAN WILL BRING BALANCE TO THE FORCE*SMACK*. Although we might want to keep it around to keep Sky happy. :p
  9. Valyn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2002
    star 8
    Starwarsfan: "The point of my thread was that, while Anikan did bring balance to the force, why didn't Yoda and company sense that it would go to the dark side."

    In the AotC novelization, if I recall correctly, there's a brief discussion between Kenobi and Windu that involve "Balancing" the Force. Both of them admit that they don't know what exactly "Balance" means. :)

    "Skylark or someone mentioned that Windu might be a traitor, and, so to speak, is pulling the wool over the Jedi Council's eyes."

    The rumors pertaining to the identity of the Jedi responsible for deleting the files from the Archives are as follows:

    - Mace Windu is actually a traitor

    - Qui-Gon Jinn is actually a traitor

    - Sifo Dyas is really Darth Sidious

    There are probably more, but those are the only three that I know. :)

    Wedge 99: "Lucas himself said that Anakin brings balance to the force by killing Palpatine at the end of RotJ, with the help of his children."


    Yes, but how does destroying one man bring "Balance" to the whole Force? :confused:

    Frankly, I've always thought Lucas's answer was a quick-fix that possessed little real contemplation or insight. :)

    StrongJedi: "I think that this also aplies to why Kyp took an agresive stance against the Vong(Darkside). and luke is more pascifistic(Lightside)."

    Hmmm...would you mind elaborating on that? :)
  10. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    The Prophecy and Tales Of The Jedi

    If we look at DHC's Sith War Saga that was told as part of the Tales Of The Jedi stories, the answer to the questions that plague the PT are very easy to see.

    In the first series, Knights Of The Old Republic, we are introduced to the principal characters of Ulic Qel-Droma and Nomi Sunrider. In Sunrider's tale we are told the Jedi Masters have forseen a time of darkness, where the dark side will rise in an attempt to subdugate the galaxy, as it has before and will do again. The Jedi know the darkness is coming and know they can only battle its resurgence, not stop it in a pre-emptive strike.

    So that is what is happening in the PT as well. What else do we learn from TOTJ? That the dark side resurgence ends when its leaders are defeated, once both Ulic Qel-Droma was defeated by Nomi Sunrider, who blinded him to the Force and Exar Kun, the Dark Lord of the Sith, was defeated by the Jedi, the darkness was over. It might be said the Force returned to balance.

    Therefore in the PT Anakin was meant to bring balance to the Force by defeating the schemes of Darth Sidious, which fuelled another dark side attempt at ascendance to control of the galaxy.

    However, things go wrong because Anakin joins with Darth Sidious, only undoing him at the end, as the dark side is on the edge of its absolute victory. The only reason it happens is due to the prescence of his son and Vader has long since forgotten his destiny, he acts to save Luke and so achieves his purpose, even though he did not know it. The fact he was forgiven was probably as great a surprise to him as to Luke.

    What does do to the Balance concept? First it shows that the term balance is independent of its mathematical and numerical meaning, so the idea that balance was achieved by the Jedi being destroyed so there were two advocates of good to the pair of evil is dismissed.

    What then is the balance? Let us consider what the light and dark sides of the Force are. The Dark Side represents control and domination of others out of hatred and despite for their lack of power relative to another, this is how both Vader and the Emperor see the world and others: As inferior and weak tools to do their bidding, life is deemed worthless unless it serves them. The light side of the force upholds freedom to act, within reason, on the basis of love and respect for others. The Dark side is an aberration, it exists but is not meant to rule and be ascendant over the light. Its nihilism is alien and antiethical to life itself, where the light is not. Would we say war is always preferable to peace? Conflict is to be preferred over the lack of conflict? We acknowlege these things happen, but that is not to say they are right in the way peace and justice are.

    Anakin balanced the Force by defeating the source of the dark side's ability to ascend. Were the PT Jedi perfect paragons of justice and freedom? No, but they did their best and certainly did not earn their slaughter at the hands of Vader and the Empire. It might be said why was slavery allowed outside of Republic space by the Jedi? The first reason is that it is outside of the Republic. The second is that to uphold freedom, intervention by the Jedi must be limited or else the end point will be rule by the Jedi. In the PT, the Jedi exist in part to inspire people to act to make the world better, as well as upholding the rights of the disenfranchised to redress and justice. The Dark side opposes such ideas of mutual respect and aspiration, the idea that it should be given a reign of two plus decades over the galaxy by the Force does not hold up.

    Jedi Ben
  11. JediStryker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2000
    star 4
    My theory is this:

    Dark Side users pull the Force to themselves, like a vacuum. They force the Force (for lack of a better term) into themselves to do their bidding instead of simply touching the Force the way the Jedi do.

    Here is my metaphor: say you have a pond. Thirty people are putting their fingers in the pond, touching it and causing ripples. While their presence is altering the water, it's in a very minor way, and for the most part the Force in undisturbed.

    Now say someone throws a huge sponge into the pond. It forcibly absorbs a lot of the water, and disturbs the water greatly. Now, while the pool looks like it is still full, in actuality, much of the water is in the sponge. Dark Side users are in essence "soaking up" the Force, using their emotions to pull it to themselves.

    This helps explain why the Force is cloudy for the Jedi; there is not as much of the Force for them to touch, and the Sith are disturbing it. It is leaving the Jedi weakened, and the Sith stronger.

    Anyway, that's my little theory. Maybe it's not great, but I think it makes a little sense. :)
  12. PSYCO_FINGOLFIN Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2002
    star 1
    Where did u here that jinn is a traitor?
  13. StrongJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 1
    Valyn what i was truing to say is that the force always tries to balance itself out so Kyp has a very agressive stance about using the force to attack. While Luke was a pacifist which is more along the lines of the light side. But Kyp has dropped this position and all of the Jedi are agressive now. I think the agrresion of the JEdi was taken away by the dark presence on corusant
  14. Charlemagne Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 15, 1999
    star 4
    Valyn I admit I sucked in our last discussion but I'd like to give my opinion on what the whole discussion of "Balance in the Force" is and gives a much better dialogue to the situation.

    In other words I'm not going to stick my fingers in my ear and say "la la la the jedi are perfect" while you talk.

    The Light and the Dark Side are in my mind best represented by the infinity symbol. Two interlocking circles which are represented by the eternal cycle of life and death. They cannot exist without one another and even as the light side struggles for harmony and order the Dark side introduces chaos and disharmony to weed out compliancy and push the galaxy forward.

    The Dark side is not 'evil' per say but individuals who draw on it draw on forces that quickly tear a man's sanity apart and force him into a state that will burn him out in an instant galactic time speaking. Even the Jedi use the Dark side regurarly as the Light is purely passive and even the slightest death disturbs it or anger.

    This draws rather heavily from my own opinions and West End Games Dark Empire along with WotC Dark Side handbook and new Jedi one.

    One thing to note is that while life creates it and makes it grow the Light Side is not solely affected by life alone but also the mood and climate of life. The Dark Side can grow incredibly strong by corrupting a Jedi Knight or other individual of power even if he does not at all do anything evil before death.

    Emperor Palpatine whether because of a 1000 years of Sith Manipulation or merely oppurtune timing (as always affected by the Dark Side) became a nexus of the Dark Side that no other individual had ever been able to accomplish before.....as Dark Empire puts it he is less a human being by DE than he is a manifestation of evil.

    But before this when he was 'merely' a Sith Lord the galaxy is at it's height of power but the Light Side's grasp is weakening already. The Trade Federation, Commerce Guilds, and thousands of warring planets have already rotted the galaxy in complency.
    The Jedi Knights are few in number and while strong in the Force they cannot see the forrest from the trees in a desire to preserve the status quo and 'damage control' the horrors that are occuring all around them.

    The Emperor slowly weaves a pyramid of power that unites the corruption of the galaxy and it grows like a festering cancer throughout. The entire galaxy is plunged into the seperatist conflict which causes untold billions of deaths as the military and political structure of the galaxy is turned to fascism and evil. Luke Skywalker said in "Starfighters of Adumar" palaptin's goal wasn't mere dominion over the universe but also the corruption of it totally by turning ever soldier who served the empire into a monster.

    Compnor, the Imperial Inquisition, and the Secret Order of the Emperor all became tools for this.

    Palpatine's greatest triumph though at least in EU was the breaking of the rule of Two. Darth Vader, Jerec, Henithar, the Inquisitors, the Hands, the Secret Order of the Emperor, the "Dark Jedi" warlords, the Dark Side adepts.

    While some might perish for thei own ambition like Vader in the end the order as a whole would survive.....Emperor Palpatine's dream of a Dark Side theocracy was taking shape as he created a Sith Knighthood every bit as strong and powerful as the Jedi.

    Furthermore he achieved immortality and his dominion would have spread across the universe. By the time of Return of the Jedi the Emperor had made preparations that would have led to the universe being his eternal domiciles and the dark side ruling all things forever.

    The Vong would have been destroyed easily or enslaved in my mind.

    His destruction in Return of the Jedi however signalled the Force's plan which basically threw his pyramid into chaos and that chaos was the beginning of his end. Palpatine himself may have survived and grown strong again but never could he achieve the power he once had. Luke and Leia had already restored a semeblance of order to the galaxy and restarted the fire of t
  15. Valyn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2002
    star 8
    Pysco: "Where did u here that jinn is a traitor?"

    Either here, on the Lit forum, or on the movie forum. It's just a theory, though. :)

    StrongJedi: "Valyn what i was truing to say is that the force always tries to balance itself out so Kyp has a very agressive stance about using the force to attack. While Luke was a pacifist which is more along the lines of the light side."

    :eek:
    Oh! Cool! I can see what you're saying now! :D

    "But Kyp has dropped this position and all of the Jedi are agressive now. I think the agrresion of the JEdi was taken away by the dark presence on corusant."

    Well, I think Kyp has become more mild, but I don't think he's as passive as Jacen. And, I'm sure that quite a bit of Jedi are still passive. Luke, though taking an active posture now, isn't exactly being entirely aggressive. Moreover, Jacen and Zekk, I'm sure, will also maintain their passive qualities. :)

    Charle: Valyn I admit I sucked in our last discussion but I'd like to give my opinion on what the whole discussion of "Balance in the Force" is...

    I never said anyone was excluded from posting here. :D ;)

    "The Light and the Dark Side are in my mind best represented by the infinity symbol. Two interlocking circles which are represented by the eternal cycle of life and death. They cannot exist without one another and even as the light side struggles for harmony and order the Dark side introduces chaos and disharmony to weed out compliancy and push the galaxy forward."

    I've always regarded Dark and Light with referring to the Yin and Yang symbol. :)

    Pushing the galaxy forward isn't necessarily a bad thing, in my opinion, either. :)

    "The Dark side is not 'evil' per say..."

    Indeed. "Dark" should not be immediately regarded as "Evil". Balance is good, apparently. So, therefore, "Light" and "Dark" must also be good, because, according to some theories (my own included), both are needed to achieve equilibrium. :)

    "Even the Jedi use the Dark side regurarly as the Light is purely passive and even the slightest death disturbs it or anger."

    I don't believe that the Force should be regarded as two entities: Dark and Light. I believe that the Force is one, individual entity that is too sophisticated to be broken down into such meager sects.
    Thus, I do not believe that one can draw upon a "Dark Side" or a "Light Side". One can only draw upon the Force and only the Force.
    So, yes, from a certain point of view, I think that Jedi draw upon the "Dark Side", as well as the "Light". :)

    "...as Dark Empire puts it he is less a human being by DE than he is a manifestation of evil."

    When you say "Evil", are you referring to someone who embodies the "Dark Side"? Or are you referring to someone who abuses the power of the Force?

    In regards to the Star Wars, in my opinion, "Evil" would be defined as the latter, seeing as how I don't believe in a "Dark" and "Light". :)

    Palpatine's greatest triumph though at least in EU was the breaking of the rule of Two. Darth Vader, Jerec, Henithar, the Inquisitors, the Hands, the Secret Order of the Emperor, the "Dark Jedi" warlords, the Dark Side adepts.

    But the Rule of Two applies only to Sith. Everyone you've listed aside of Vader and Palpatine were not Sith. :)
    Or, at least I don't think so. :)



    Here's something I'm a bit confused with:

    If the Force is created by life, don't the "Dark Side" advocates realize that by destroying life they're weakening their power? :confused:

  16. Charlemagne Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 15, 1999
    star 4
    Two points Valyn...

    1.

    For all intents and purposes you are correct in that there is only one Force. A Dark Sider can learn the ways of the Force to draw on the Light Side and Vice versa but they are in fact two entirely seperate entities.

    Why I don't think the Yin and Yang theory is appropriate....it's appropriate to human beings but not to the Force.

    Assuming WEG and WoTC material is true based on what Lucas has and the intentions I percieve of the movies the Dark Side at least tempts directly Jedi to abandon their code and give into destructive and vicious impulses.

    It like a fire is something that by necessity does it's best to grow and thus must constantly be kept in check. However there is no 'alliance' between the Dark and Light Side but it seems fairly much like dueling serpents

    It does it's best to bite the tail of it's brother and devour it so it can regrow the tail that it has lost to it's brother's fangs.

    So while a Jedi might draw on the Light Side he is not drawing on the same source a Jedi who draws on the Darkness does even as they are one in the same. Or to make a more apt comparison a person talking to a person's arse is not talking to his face.

    2. Dark Side advocates one needs to note Valyn are not spiritual philosophers for the most part. Palpatine and the Sith as a whole are simply Dark Jedi who choose openly to embrace the Dark Side in all it's majesty.

    I don't buy personally the idea the rule of two beyond Palpatine's administration. A great deal of Sith lore was lost when he died but all Dark Jedi who relieze what they draw on are Sith in a manner of speaking to my mind. Their code is a mere reversal of the Jedi way

    Sort of like a Catholic, a Satan worshipper, and just an Evil man who is Catholic. Two serve the Dark Side but only one knows willingly he does so.

    Basically put most Dark siders if not all are evil individuals. By nature the Dark Side is a force of nature that has no business being adopted by a human mindset as the dominant ideal. All living beings purpose is to resist death, destruction, and to preserve an strengthen life.

    Exar Kun isn't following the Dark Side because he loves it. He follows the Dark Side because it makes him powerful. He is too shortsighted to see a universe where it is 'victorious' is extinguished...if he ever bothered to think ahead (I, Jedi implies he didn't) he'd just optimistically assume that life would always be there to provide him enough dark side power to vampirically feed off of.

    He'd simply destroy any other leaches who might compete with him for it
  17. Darth_Infamous Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2002
    star 2
    Bringing balance to the force does NOT mean getting rid of the dark side. It means that the force no longer favors the light or the dark. When the jedi masters forsaw the coming darkness and made the prophecy they did so after the Light had shined bright for a millenium. The lightside was being overly favored. Then the reemergence of the Sith in the PT era. Remember one reason we thought the JC didn't think Anakin was the chosen one, was because the darkness had not yet shown itself. The Jedi weren't being hindered as they are during AOTC. Now at the time of AOTC, the darkness is building. The force is starting to favor the dark side more then the light. Hence why Yoda says, "Only the Dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness." Because as the Jedi can sense the darkness being favored and shrouding the light, the DLOTS surely can sense this as well. Another reason why Mace points out if the prophecy is true Anakin is the only one who can bring the force back into balance. It has nothing to do with amount of sith or jedi. It has to do with the Force itself, niether favoring the light or the dark. Now you might say, "Well then why is the Force brought back into Balance with Palpatine's death." It has more to do symbolically with Palps death then him actually dying. With Anakin returning to the lightside at his death, the Darkness is pushed back. And as Anakin lies dying the Force slopes back into balance.

    Sturm, I think had an excellent perspective in a thread months ago about this subject. The thread was THE PROPHECY OF THE CHOSEN ONE AND THE REBORN EMPEROR IN DARK EMPIRE. Look for that thread or if sturm comes to this one maybe he can cut and paste it. What I said is pretty much a short version, in my view, of what he said, but his was much more detailed and refined.
  18. Kreuzader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2002
    star 4
    Paging Sturm to the thread... paging Sturm...
  19. Valyn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2002
    star 8
    JediStryker: I found your analogy to be quite interesting. In fact, I found your whole theory to be very intriguing. Aside from stimulating the mind, you theory could also explain why Mara Jade advised Anakin Solo to refrain from using the Force when it wasn't necessary, and why Corran Horn told Ganner the same thing.
    Using the Force abundantly might create more than just "ripples", as you put it. :)

    Jedi Ben: I haven't really found the time to read your entire theory as yet. But I will. :D

    Charle: "A Dark Sider can learn the ways of the Force to draw on the Light Side and Vice versa but they are in fact two entirely seperate entities."

    How do you know for a fact that the Force consists of two, separate entities? :confused:

    In Shadow Hunter, Sidious dismissed the notion of the Force being made up of two entities: Light and Dark. I agree with his reasoning.

    "Assuming WEG and WoTC material is true based on what Lucas has and the intentions I percieve of the movies the Dark Side at least tempts directly Jedi to abandon their code and give into destructive and vicious impulses."

    Destruction and impulse are part of life; therefore, they are also a part of the Force--or should be, if Star Wars was really into deep philosophy and not quick-fixes. :)

    "So while a Jedi might draw on the Light Side he is not drawing on the same source a Jedi who draws on the Darkness does even as they are one in the same. Or to make a more apt comparison a person talking to a person's arse is not talking to his face."

    Once more, your analogy leaves me perplexed. :(

    And, aside of that, if I recall correctly, in your last post, you said that Light Jedi do draw from the "Dark Side", as well. :confused:

    "Dark Side advocates one needs to note Valyn are not spiritual philosophers for the most part."

    That's stereotyping. How do you know what goes on in the minds of all "Dark Side" advocates? :confused:

    Infamous: "Bringing balance to the force does NOT mean getting rid of the dark side."

    This, I completely agree with. :)

    "When the jedi masters forsaw the coming darkness and made the prophecy they did so after the Light had shined bright for a millenium."

    Wait, wait, wait. How does one go about making a prophecy? :confused:

    "It has more to do symbolically with Palps death then him actually dying. With Anakin returning to the lightside at his death, the Darkness is pushed back."

    Yes! I never did like the thought of Palp's death yielding sudden Balance simply because he died. :D

  20. JediStryker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2000
    star 4
    I found your analogy to be quite interesting. In fact, I found your whole theory to be very intriguing. Aside from stimulating the mind, you theory could also explain why Mara Jade advised Anakin Solo to refrain from using the Force when it wasn't necessary, and why Corran Horn told Ganner the same thing.
    Using the Force abundantly might create more than just "ripples", as you put it.


    :D Ego-rific!

    The only problem with my theory is all the other Dark Side users aside from the Sith. My only explanation is that they possibly are not as strong as the Sith, and cannot "suck in" as much of the Force, which does not alter it as much and throw it out of balance.

    Of course, if GL decides to ignore the EU and says that there are only Vader and Palpatine and once they're gone the galaxy has no more Dark Side users, then my theory makes sense, despite it ruining the EU. :(

    Just remember, balance does not necessarily mean the same amount of the two, it could just mean that the Force is out of balance with itself. I don't personally subscribe to the idea that the Force is in fact two entities: light and dark. If it were, it would be called the Forces. There is the Force, and how you interact with the Force is what makes it light and dark. If you use emotions to move the Force, that is the Dark Side. Jedi spend years learning to move the Force with their minds, which requires much more work and concentration, which is why it is so much easier to use the "Dark Side".
  21. Charlemagne Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 15, 1999
    star 4
    Valyn I hate to be one to burst your bubble but you do realize that Darth Sideous in "Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter" Eventually completely abandoned that viewpoint as wrong as he grew more powerful in the Force to the more demonic teachings of Return of the Jedi and Dark Empire.

    In Tales of the Jedi Sourcebook furthermore there is a young Jedi Knight named Vara Neem who tries to discover the secrets of the Dark Side because she believes there was only one force neither light and dark and the Jedi were foolish not to study the Sith ways....

    The Sith spirits laughed at her and destroyed her.

    Count Dooku according to the Wizards of the Coast novelization and quite possibly future supplements was seduced to the Dark Side of the Force by the promise that by mastering both the Light Side of the Force as well as the Dark Side of the Force he might bring balance to it.

    Instead he was utterly transformed into a slave of the Dark Side.

    In the Dark Side Sourcebook Jedi Master Kaadaan believed that it was possible to be a being who was neither light nor dark but simply 'one' with the Force and again despite his efforts to be 'neutral' in the Force he was one of the most vicious servants of evil in the galaxy.

    Luke is obviously being tempted by SOMETHING in Return of the Jedi and I find it difficult Darth Sideous is just converting him to his side as a servant....there's something in my mind much more deeply demonic going on there.

    Palpatine didn't say "Luke there is no Dark side! Power belongs to any who can wield the force!" he said "Your feeble skills are no match for the power of the DARK SIDE!"

    Furthermore Yoda doesn't warn against being evil he warns against a spiritual enemy.

    I think it's pretty much proven by the evidence any Jedi who believes the Dark Side is the same as the light is destined to be consumed by the Dark Side

    My analogy basically is that the Light Side of the Force protects and harmonizes with the rest of the universe while doing it's best to keep the Dark Side Down while the Dark tears at the Light Side of the Force and destroys making it possible for the Light Side to sustain itself.

    They are two forces in continous conflict.

  22. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Oh I'm sure you'll comment on my theory Valyn. I'll say now your comment that you liken the Force's light/dark sides to the ying and yang concepts in Taoism explain your philosophical mindset much better than prior posts. I can't say I'll agree but I can understand your reasoning far more easily than I used to.

    Jedi Ben
  23. Charlemagne Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 15, 1999
    star 4
    Yeah that's right.

    To explain what I was saying, I use the Neverneding Story serpents to describe the Force because deliberately the Force is not harmonious like Yin/Yang.

    They are two eternally struggling enemies that nevertheless cannot exist without one another
  24. Valyn Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2002
    star 8
    Stryker: "There is the Force, and how you interact with the Force is what makes it light and dark."

    Good observation! *jots that down to use should the need ever arise to further argue my beliefs on the Force*

    Charle: Valyn I hate to be one to burst your bubble but you do realize that Darth Sideous in "Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter" Eventually completely abandoned that viewpoint as wrong as he grew more powerful in the Force to the more demonic teachings of Return of the Jedi and Dark Empire.

    :eek:
    Looks like I've recieved an opportunity to use Stryker's reasoning sooner than I thought! :D

    Charle, just because Sidious changed his views (if he is indeed Palpatine), that doesn't mean that I have to change mine. The reason why I mentioned Sidious is because you were stating it as fact that the Force is indeed two entities. I want to know where you read this from. :)

    "They are two forces in continous conflict."

    And that's your theory. As you can see, I don't agree with it. Now, I'm not saying that you should try to convince me that your theory is correct, because that won't work. I'm saying that you believe what you want to believe and I'll believe what I want to believe. That way, everyone's happy. :)

    Jedi Ben: "So that is what is happening in the PT as well. What else do we learn from TOTJ? That the dark side resurgence ends when its leaders are defeated, once both Ulic Qel-Droma was defeated by Nomi Sunrider, who blinded him to the Force and Exar Kun, the Dark Lord of the Sith, was defeated by the Jedi, the darkness was over. It might be said the Force returned to balance."

    :eek:
    So, the Force being imbalanced in the PT isn't as unique an event as it appears to be? The Force has been imbalanced before? :confused:

    As for everything else, I'm speechless... [face_blush] :)

  25. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Well, I'm applying my own interpretation of the Prophecy ideas raised in the PT and applying them to an earlier Jedi tale, which does seem to indicate that the imbalance in PT isn't that unique an event. Of course the purists will dismiss this other taleas irrelevant EU stuff but as we're in Lit... :)

    So you know the comparison is made to the story contained in the following collections:

    TOTJ: Knights Of The Old Republic
    TOTJ: The Freedon Nadd Uprising
    TOTJ: Dark Lords Of The Sith
    TOTJ: The Sith War
    TOTJ: Redemption

    Suggest strongly that you read them!

    Jedi Ben
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