Chatt, TN The Official Bush/Cheney vs. Kerry/Edwards Thread

Discussion in 'South East Regional Discussion' started by Layren, Oct 6, 2004.

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  1. Layren Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2003
    star 5
    Hey everybody! With the election only a month or so away I thought I would give us all a place to discuss politics.
    My husband and I are very conservative and hence are voting for Bush in the election. What about the rest of you guys? Where do you swing one way or another? Conservative, Liberal or independent?
  2. Vesper2112 FF President & CR, Chattanooga, TN

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2003
    star 4
    OK... are you sure you want a topic like this? lol

    I was disillusioned with what either major party had to offer. Because of this, I started looking at the independents. Right at that time, a crazy old guy was all over the news talking about the econmy and had the numbers to back him up. So, I started listening to the guy... and he made sense to me. I was willing to make the sacrifices he was proposing to get this country back on track. Yup, it was Ross Perot. Of course he lost in '92, but he had a strong showing. I voted for him again in '96. For 2000, I ran across another party that was even a better fit for what I thought and beleived. Libertarian. Here was a party that broke things down to the point where government would do only what it was designed to do. No government programs, no more "war on (fill in the blank)" which was always some generic, broad intangible thing. Drugs, Poverty, (ahem) Terror. While all these things are noble, none of these things are wars we can actually "win". Sure, I could debate issues all day and night. I beleive what I beleive and I'm sure everyone else has their own beleifs. I'm willing to listen to an argument and also willing to be swayed if that argument holds more water. I'd probably be called a flip-flop, but I would just call it common sense. I would be a fool to say that I made my mind up on everything and never waver throught my life. In life, there is growth. With growth comes wisdom. That doesn't mean that at 80 you'll have all the answers, but at least you'll have a lifetime of experience to help form your opinion.

    All I'm saying is that with each passing year, my views may change. Certainly not by popular opinion. Who am I trying to impress? No, although I feel strongly that a Libertarian President would help this country, I'm also not naive enough to think this year is the time to vote that way. I feel my vote for Libertarian would be a vote taken away from Kerry/Edwards. So, swallowing my pride, I'm going Democartic this year (for President, otherwise stright Libertarian or Independent).

    Oh, as for last night's debate? I think it was a tie. They both gave as good as they got. I doubt anything they say will affect the election, though.
  3. Layren Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2003
    star 5
    I didn't get a chance to watch the debate. I kinda wish I had though. I've missed both of them. What areas did the cover? Same ground as last time or something different?
  4. Vesper2112 FF President & CR, Chattanooga, TN

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2003
    star 4
    I missed the first one. This one mainly focused on Iraq, but they did touch on the economy a little. Health care was never an asked question, but was talked about by piggybacking onto an answer to whatever it was hey were asked. I wasn't looking for answers yesterday. I knew it would be a good fight, though and found it entertaining. ;)
  5. mr_nightmarez Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2003
    star 2
    Is there a button for "NONE OF THE ABOVE"?

    How can we live in a Democracy if the Rep. and Dem tell us the TWO people we can vote for?
    As for independents - they will never win - so it is almost like they say "A wasted vote"

    I'm trying to vote for the lesser evil...
  6. Vesper2112 FF President & CR, Chattanooga, TN

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2003
    star 4
    Well... I wouldn't call it a wasted vote. If enough people would vote that way, it would at least give the independants some exposure. Right now, I think Ralph Nader's name is being tossed around as if he represents all independents. Either way, I can't say I support either of the "big two", but if a race as tight as this one... we're forced into taking sides with one or the other. I think they would rather have it that way.
  7. SarkaVrae Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2004
    star 5
    I'm voting for Bush.
    I am Pro-Life & Pro-Conservative, so voting Demacratic would be against much of what I believe and stand for.
    Personally, I really don't like Kerry. I think the demacrats would have had a better ticket if Edwards had been running for prez. He's much more charismatic and has a more open personality and presentation style. Kerry has not been very smart in this campaign--he needs to stick to one side and stay there.
    Bush has his faults--Iraq was probably not a good idea, but he did it for the right reasons, and he's handling it right now as well as anyone could.
    I haven't watched the debates mostly b/c I hate politics. I respect and follow leadership, but politics is a whole other deal. I wish the candidates would leave each other out of it, and just stick to issues. But one person can't do it all, and I don't expect them to.
    I think Bush is an honest person, and a compassionate and strong leader. Kerry has raised too many questions about his integrity during this race to get any support from me (let alone that he is not on board with me about any of the issues that I feel are most important).

    Anyway, that's what I think.

    I saw a bumper sticker today that said, "America is a Replublic, NOT a democracy"
    What does that mean? We ARE a republic--but how is that different from a democracy? It's been a while since my political science classes in high school--any one care to explain/expound?
  8. Layren Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2003
    star 5

    I saw a bumper sticker today that said, "America is a Replublic, NOT a democracy"



    Hum. That's interesting. I think a true democracy is where everybody has a say on EVERY issue. I'm not exactly sure. Also, I don't think there would be an Electoral College in a true democracy. I think it should be abolished. The reason it was started back when our Forefathers founded this country was because it was so hard to be informed back then of who was running for office so certain people were appointed who knew what was going on and could make proper decisions about running the country. These days with several tv's per household and newspapers everywhere it's not hard to figure out what's going on in politics so therefore, in my opinion, the Electoral College is no longer needed or wanted. At least I think so. That's some of what I vaguely remember from my history classes :p Mrs. Dean would be proud :p
  9. Vesper2112 FF President & CR, Chattanooga, TN

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2003
    star 4
    In my opinion, we should have never gone to Iraq. Yes, Kerry voted in favor to go there, but the big difference is he wouldn't have pushed for it. That coupled with the fact that Bush knew more than he let on has led us to a war we can call a victory, but feels like a defeat.

    I know there are probably facts in the movie Farenheit 9/11 that are stretched, but even if half of it is true, then I'm really scared to have some like Bush in the position he's in. I made my mind up a long time before I saw the movie (just the other day), but it's a shocker. Again, I'm not basing my opinions soley on that movie because I realize it was made for just that purpose. I DO think Kerry's record hasn't been the best to show consistancy, but I honestly would rather have a President to listen to the people he represents than have an agenda of his own and follow it through regardless of what anyone thinks. I did like Edwards better, although I don't think he would have made this race closer (mainly an age thing). I could care less what their ages are, but it probably would have been held against him much more than it is now.

    Since nobody asked (lol), if it were up to me, I would do my best to:
    a) get out troops home and stay out of forign affairs. Period. Quit meddling. We have too many problems here to be worrying about what's going on in a country that wouldn't be able to hit us with a WMD even if they had them. If the countries around him (which have enemies for, oh.. 1000 years or so) didn't stop him or didn't ask us to stop him, then why should we care?

    b) quit making deals with China and other countried we import from but don't export to. We need to make our country more self reliant. We need to start penalizing U.S. buisnesses that outsource overseas. Get rid of NAFTA. Do we really have to have our Star Wars action figures made in China or Taiwan? It may make this stuff cheaper, but at what cost? We aren't playing on a level playing field. Chinese workers and American workers aren't paid the same and never will. We can't compete with that. I work in a rope company. If China ever opened up one, it would kill every rope buisness in the US and most of Europe because people want things cheap... not quality (in general).

    c) I don't agree with abortion at all. I don't think it should be left up to the mother to make that choice. Do the crime, do the time. Not to be so harsh, but I think it's hard to teach abstinence if they feel that there is always that option. I think if you ban abortion, the STD's may go down as well. You may have more kids given up for adoption, but at least they'll have a life.

    d) Lower taxes. How can we do that? Easy. Quit govenrment social programs. Once that happens, you won't need the income tax to fund them. It's no secret that any of these programs could be done cheaper and better by private buisnesses. Have an option to opt out of Social Security. You get back what you put in and do with it as you please. The federal government owns assets worth trillions of dollars - assets that it simply doesn't need to perform its Constitutional functions. By selling these assets over time, the money will be there to cover the ones who opt to stay on SS.

    e) Legalize drugs. Personal responsibility for their actions is what should be called for. As long as the individual isn't harming anyone, they shouldn't be locked up. Legal drugs would be inexpensive, so even addicts could support their habits with honest work, rather than by crime. Organized crime would be deprived of its profits. The police could return to protecting us from real criminals and there would be room enough in existing prisons for them.

    So, there's my platform. A little bit of this, a little bit of that. Sorry I got carried away, but I feel strongly about these things. Despite all this, I'm pretty easy going and could only ever do a real debate in writing. I could never actually run for anything as I don't like public speaking and would rather research facts than mess up in front of millions of people. ;)
  10. darthjess Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2004
    "I think Bush is an honest person, and a compassionate and strong leader."


    I think that is the farthest from the how he actually is, honestly. But, to each his own. I can't trust the man. I am libertarian/socialist at heart, but will vote Democrat this year. Simply because Matt & I can't afford 4 more years of Bush's lies.


    Yeah... I decided to join the group. LOL thought I would start with a bang!
  11. Vesper2112 FF President & CR, Chattanooga, TN

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2003
    star 4
    Hey, what's up? Excellent, excellent. Glad you dropped by. Yeah, I thought this might be a volatile subject, but hey... as long as we stay civil. ;)
  12. SarkaVrae Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2004
    star 5
    I know there are probably facts in the movie Farenheit 9/11 that are stretched, but even if half of it is true, then I'm really scared to have some like Bush in the position he's in.

    Personally, I think Farenheit 9/11 didn't have an iota of truth that wasn't twisted in it and was total propaganda. Saying that if "even half of it is true" about Bush is like saying the new movie SAVED is a true story about Christians, or Lord of the Rings is an honest dipiction of our ancient history. It's just not true. And it's not fair to credit Bush's actions with another man's opinion. Sure, Farenheit 9/11 used stuff from the news, stuff Bush did/said, etc etc etc. But, the man is clearly biased who did it and had a pre-formed idea of how he wanted to portray Bush from the start. He's also admitted to lying and twisting the truth to fit his opinion in all of his "documentaries", so why believe anything he says? That man reminds me of the Sith--killing the Order with lies and cleverly disguised deceipt. There's no way I would let that movie maker affect my opinion.

    Sorry, I've just been thinking about this for a while, and had to say it. :)
  13. Vesper2112 FF President & CR, Chattanooga, TN

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2003
    star 4
    I don't disagree with you, Sarka. I know what Michael Moore's agenda was when he made that "documentery". But... regardless of that film, I still think that the things he has done in office has hurt our country.. here and abroad. I was sincerly afraid when he won the Presidency. I'm afraid for our country when our leaders are more interested in forign affairs than what's going on here at home. LIke I said, I honestly don't think we should meddle when it comes to other countries.

    The best way to stop terrorism to United States citizens is to stop giving them a reason to terrorize us. What possible reason would they have had to come over here and do anything? It's not our freedom, it's not our way of life, it's not even our religeous beleifs. We aid their enemies, we use our military weight to get what we want, we basically stick our noses in places that don't belong. Of course all this doesn't fall on our current President. All of them are guilty of this. All I'm saying is that of the two major candidates, I will choose the one that won't put us deeper into that never ending cycle of terrorism against US citizens. As long as we remain in Iraq, US citizens will be killed. Bush won't budge, therefore there's no reason to think that Iraq will ever be stable enough to bring everyone home.

    You see all those signs around saying "Support Our Troops"? I support them enough to want them to come home where they belong. I support them enough to where they should have never been there to begin with. Iraq is a noble cause, but we were lied to about the reason to go there. To top it off, when undeniable proof that Sadam Hussain had no WMD's of any kind whatsoever and no ties to 9/11, our current leadership still sticks to his line about stopping him being an imminent threat to the US people. He was no threat to us. To his people, sure. To his neighboring countries, sure, yet they didn't seem to concerned about it.

    Honestly, this next part wouldn't really come into play unless I was really torn about who to go with. Nonetheless, I think it is an important factor. John Kerry has seen a war firsthand. He served in the military in a forign war. He was shot at. He personally led teams in active combat and was decorated for it. George W Bush (regardless of what he actually did in the National Guard) has never seen active combat. The majority of his platform is who'd be a better leader in a time of war. Since he took us to this war, I think the answer's pretty clear.

    (Just so you know, I in NO way write this with an angry heart of feelings toward anybody who ends up voting for Bush. I like a good debate. I usually don't have the conviction toward things as I do politics, so forgive me if I get a little wordy. If asked in person, I'd say a whole lot less.)

    Anyway, it'll all be over soon (thank goodness) so whoever wins, PLEASE do some good over the next 4 years! Libertarians in 2008!
  14. EmilieDarklighter Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2002
    star 4
    Just thought I'd have a look-see to find out what the general consensus was, say my piece, and then drop into invisibility again...

    I'm across-the-board pro-life, and pretty conservative (except when it comes to censorship *shudders*) so if I could vote (I'm seventeen; registered to vote already but won't be able to vote in a presidential election until 2008.) I'd vote Bush. I really have respect for him, and I think he's a good man, albeit a human one.
  15. Layren Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2003
    star 5
    Those of you who can -- take advantage of Early Voting here at Northgate Mall. I went to do that this morning so Bush officially has my vote :D I waited in line for about an hour but that's nothing compared to what the wait will be on election day.
  16. greencat336 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2001
    star 5
    Wow, I'm most impressed that a controversal issue like this was not only posted, but that the discussion here has been so civil. Nice Job!


    Since I'm here, I'll throw in my two cents . . .

    I'm voting for Kerry because his view on things is much closer to my own than Bush. I'm a liberal (and proud of it ;) ) I'm pro-choice. I oppose the war in Iraq (which is much different from not supporting our troops. I support them, I oppose the administration), I think that religion has no place in making laws (check out that First Amendment. If the only basis for a law is Biblical scripture, than it shouldn't be a law in this country.) I believe that if two adults love each other they should be able to get married. (yeah, I know Kerry is for 'civil union' not marriage) I think a country should spend more money on educating its youth than it does on war. I'm an enviromentalist. It bothers me that we went from surplus to a huge deficit. And to be honest, I find the Bush Administration a bit scary because they don't seem to be able to admit that they ever make mistakes.



    And yes, a true democracy is one where everyone votes on everything. Obviously not a practical thing when you have 265 million people. A republic is when you elect people to make the decisions.


  17. Vesper2112 FF President & CR, Chattanooga, TN

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2003
    star 4
    Yeah, it's pretty civil around here. Give us a year or so, then WATCH OUT! lol

    Naaa.... I have my views and I know others have theirs. To each their own. As I said beofre, whoever wins, I really hope the next 4 years see some improvement. I think we're kept in the dark about "a great many things", so really... who are we to decide anything? We don't know the whole truth. We get one side or the other's spin on things and it's left to us to figure out where that line crosses. That's why I so like the independants. They know they're going to lose, so they have more freedom to say what they want. If only the system wasn't designed to keep them as a "them" and not given the chance to compete on a level playing field with the "big two". Maybe someday. Anyway, love, hugs and kisses to all! LOL.
  18. Layren Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2003
    star 5
    Today's the day guys! Don't forget to vote!!!
  19. drthmrl Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 1
    i vote for Palpatine for supreme ruler on the galaxy!!!
  20. Vesper2112 FF President & CR, Chattanooga, TN

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2003
    star 4
    Was that a write in? LOL. For the ones that gave you the option of voting for the only one running or a write in, I always took the write-in. I wonder how many more votes Padme Amidala got? Hey... a future Senator has to start somewhere.
  21. SarkaVrae Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2004
    star 5
    Yay! *throws confetti*
    Kerry conceded!
  22. Layren Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2003
    star 5
    *Throws more confetti with Sarka * Go Mr. President!!! [face_dancing] [face_dancing] [face_dancing]
  23. Vesper2112 FF President & CR, Chattanooga, TN

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2003
    star 4
    Well... I hope your guy puts us back on the right track. That's all I'll say about it.
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