MOD The OFFICIAL Comments, Complaints, and Suggestions Thread-(*Currently Discussing: Holiday Season*)

Discussion in 'Fan Art' started by Rox, May 31, 2002.

Moderators: Corellian_Outrider
  1. Otis_Frampton LFL Artist, Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2001
    star 4
    Sorry to hear you were disappointed. Next time I have to do 400 cards in between working on a comic book, doing 40 hours per at the Air Force job and squeezing in freelance illo work at the same time, I'll do less time-saving techniques so that no one gets a "multiple" of my cards. I suppose it was silly of me to want each card to look semi-finished. I should have scribbled a quick pencil doodle on a bunch of them, which I certainly could have done, given that they were sketch cards and I had no obligation to make them look finished in any way. At least they would have had more variety, right?

    I almost feel silly defending Cat. HER work speaks for itself. There is no question that she does it all herself.


    No, the REAL fault was that he denied they were photo-manips, said they were hand drawn, said he'd prove it, then DIDN'T. As Cat said, she offered to help him with portfolio reviews if he DID. If Cat Staggs offered to mentor ME, I'd get her the proof ASAP.

    But I think you're right about one thing . . . maybe we pros shouldn't post here if we can't post all the time. I modded here and posted here a long time before getting any pro gigs. I spent years here as a fan artist. I haven't had time lately to be a real contributor because of work and no time. But I still lurk once and a while and post when I feel I need to. This was such case.

    And silly me, I actually thought I was helping the "family" by trying to expose a fraud. Seriously, some of you shouldn't be so quick to defend someone who does this kind of thing. You're the ones being tricked into praising something that isn't kosher. I should think that would tick you off after spending time posting high praise in a thread for so long.

    It ticked ME off, and I just stopped by to lurk a bit.

    -Otis
  2. gatodama LFL Artist

    VIP
    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 3
    Have you read a word I have said, seriously. You basiclly just repeaed the last post I made. And I have NEVER said I don't like digital art. I have done some myself, and that is not even the issue here. As far as the rest of your comments on the quality of work from others...not the time or place.

    he also did want to go somewhere with this work and as i explained in my last post, i tired to help him but he did not want to help himself.

  3. HanSolo29 Manager Emeritus + Official Star Wars Artist

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2001
    star 6
    Okay, I just went through and read the entire thread up until here. To be honest, I was shocked when I logged on to see how this exploded over a course of a few hours. I'll try to address this the best I can.

    First of all, let me apologize for not being around all night. I was in Philly and just got back about 20 minutes ago.

    Digital art/photo manipulation is a tough subject to get into. To be honest, I personally did not care for anything digital when it was first introduced. I was against it all the way and felt that it could never be considered "real" art. That is, until I tried it out for myself. Now, laying out a wallpaper or designing a poster is no piece of cake. It takes skill, a good sense of composition and general understanding of the program you're using. That in itself turned the tables for me. I now feel it is considered art.

    Now, what is being claimed here about photo manips being passed as original work is wrong. I agree that if you're going to pass an image with Photoshop filters layed over top as a work of art, to at least admit that - not pass it off as your own work. I think that was the first fault in this whole thing. jace should have admitted his error when it was pointed out or at least showed some of the methods involved. It's a real shame that he has decided to leave Fan Art due to this and that he was even discouraged about continuing on in the art field, but that brings me to my second point.

    As an art student myself(going into my third year of collage), I agree that you really need to develop a tough skin to succeed. Trust me, I've been to the point of quitting myself already. The very first drawing professor I ever had hated my work. She tore apart every single drawing I did in a class period and was never happy with a final product. After coming out with a D that semester and a pretty harsh final critique, I was ready to throw away my pencils. But you know what? This is what I love to do - this is my gift and my dream and I was determinded to stay with it. I walked away with a lot of helpful tips from that professor that improved my work immensely. I ended this last semester with an A in drawing. So, jace, if you're listening - please don't walk away just yet. Please take the most out of critiques and keep with it!

    As for critiques themselves - of course they are welcomed in this forum. In my mind, there would be no point in the Fan Art forum than to just offer some nice eye candy if we eliminated critques. As I see it, we are a big family here and we need to look out for each other. That includes helping each other out improve in our art. This was a major factor in starting the Fan Art classes back up again after Otis introduced them years before.

    However, there is a line that must be drawn with critques. I don't want folks going into a thread and just literally tearing each other apart (EX. "Eww, that sucks!"). That's not helping the artist out at all and is just setting that person up for discouragement. Remember, a critique is designed to help out an artist - point out what was done right and comment on what needs to be improved upon. Yes, sometimes critiques can prove to be pretty harsh, but you know what? You just have to take the most out of them.

    That's all that I have to say at the moment. I'll continue to keep an eye on this thread and work this thing out with you guys. :)

  4. EmilieDarklighter Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2002
    star 4
  5. Otis_Frampton LFL Artist, Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2001
    star 4
    Sorry you had to read so much, HanSolo29.

    -Otis
  6. DarthZemog Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2002
    star 4
    No, the REAL fault was that he denied they were photo-manips, said they were hand drawn, said he'd prove it, then DIDN'T.

    Yeah he did do this. That is pretty shady, but I do believe that if he had stated what his work was initally, this could all have been avoided. And I still think the way it went down was kind of bad. I would be upset at a person who passes off someone elses work as their own; but the responce he got for basically digitally coloring photographs seemed kind of harsh and an attack. I think it would be up to viewer to decide if they liked his work or not.

    Sorry I'm getting under your skin too. 400 cards is a ton to do on top of everything else you mentioned, but the simple fact is, would you feel satisfied if you got two of basically the same card? Or three or four, with just minor diferences such as grey tones or a color mark? Hey, though, it's cool, you got paid and were able to save time doing it too! Sorry, SW is rampant with this money machine attitude. I could go on and on about Hasbro.

    Sorry Cat, I must have missed a point or two reading through all these posts. It's late, I'm tired, and evidently I'm stepping on too many toes.

    Good night people, hope you don't all come after me! That was a joke. [face_peace]


  7. Daughter_Of_TheForce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 1, 2001
    star 4
  8. Otis_Frampton LFL Artist, Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2001
    star 4
    Wow, you have no idea what you're talking about implying that the way I did my cards was all about the money.

    True story: Each artist got back a few cards after we delivered them to Topps. To keep, to sell, whatever. I got 6 cards back and sold them on eBay (I don't want my own artwork. Honestly, I'm surpsised anyone would). But guess what? I made twice as much for those 6 cards as I did from Topps doing all 400.

    All about the money? Sorry. Wrong-o. I did it because I wanted to be a part of something officially Star Wars, and this was my last chance. I would have done it for free if I had to.

    Oh, and I must say that anyone who thinks Tom Hodges doesn't support fan artists is totally off base. I'm one of a bunch of fan artists who owe their Topps gig to the kindness and support of Tom.

    -Otis
  9. HanSolo29 Manager Emeritus + Official Star Wars Artist

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2001
    star 6

    I agree completely. However, I think the reason the responses sounded harsh was because of what you first said here - he didn't come right out and say what they were and tried to pass them off as his own. Now, I may be wrong here, but it would be great if jace could come on in here and give us his stance on this.
  10. EmilieDarklighter Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2002
    star 4
  11. TDHArtist LFL Webstrip Artis

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2000
    star 4
    Wow... you go to thew movies and dinner with your wife and this is what you return to... rude PMs and THIS!

    I have to start by saying what has happened here really is out of control. Otis, Cat and I were simply wanting to see something more from the artist other then taking images and throwing a filter or applying blur and water wipes to the images. The fact is, to be in this business we're in, you have to take the shots or you're not going to make it.

    I spent nearly 12 years of my life working to get to THIS POINT. I went from being a Jim Lee hack to someone who planned on hanging it up. But I got a little tougher and I met some people who made me tougher. I wanted to make this artist better by making him show me more then what he does. I wanted to see a pencil drawing... a doodle on a napkin... something from his own heart and mind and the guy throw out there images I had a year ago directly from LFL with a filter and blurs on it.

    For those of you who don't know this... THIS FORUM, THE Jedi Council TFN FAN ART FORUM is where Lucasfilm found me. HERE! Not on my own site, Hell, I have only had my own site for about 15 months now... I was contacted by Lucasfilm at in July of 2003.

    They are watching folks.

    I've been watching. I pay attention... I may not post, but I'm always looking and yes... Otis got the Topps gig and LFL approval because I recommended him... as I did Grant Gould and Paul "Gutz" Gutierrez. Fan artists (not just from here) whose work I thought stood out and I made people in charge look their way.

    I love fan art. I WAS a Fan Artist. Now I'm official and doing more and more work for them.

    I would love it for jace to comeback and show me a REAL sketch. Hell, EMAIL a REAL sketch. ake some Crits and comments and run with them, NOT away from them. If you think I'm out to get anyone, you're dead wrong. If anything, if I'm in your thread giving comments... it's to help, not hurt.

    I think I have said enough. I can say I was utterly offended by the PM I was sent. It was completely out of line.
  12. jacemathem Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2003
    star 5
    Seriously, everything is blown way out of proportion. And odj, you weren't justified in the PMs you sent, even if you think you were coming to my "defense".

    I enjoy critiques, it helps challenge me. I was challenged to some original poses and whatnot, and I was eager to do it, and got out my sketchbook and started drafting, but then as I returned to the thread, it appeared that people were just flooding my thread with redundant posts that basically ripped everything I did. It seemed as if I was being ganged up on (not that it hasn't happened before), but by the "sanctioned" LFL artists who appeared to use their credentials to judge me. It just took out the motivation right then and there. I had a nice piece of artwork coming along. But I threw it away.

    I never ever did any of this for personal gain, nor was I even thinking of becoming a professional artist, I was just doing this because I like creating art and I like Star Wars. I started participating in this Fan Art forum because I saw everyone else felt the same way. Whatever I posted wasn't really meant as an "Oh, look at my art skill", it was merely just an homage to Star Wars to be viewed by anyone who happens by. I practically forgot each one as I posted them and moved on.

    In regards to my techniques... I use Corel Painter IX and I switch between bristle oils and camel oil brushes. I've even experimented with painting the background first, and then taking a brush over top of it to create a moving effect, or a swirly effect as I thought fit. Never, ever did I even touch any sort of photo editing/manipulating software with these images. I had reference photos available to me and, yes, I did go over each section of the photo. Later, I compiled different reference photos and created more unique images, such as "Donna di Amore" and "Be Mindful of the Living Force". To be flat honest, my creativity sucks. I may be able to widdle around my Wacom pen on a tablet in synch with colors from an already existing photograph, but my mind can be terrible with visualizing and virtualizing a totally new image within my mind and then somehow transferring it through my hand, having to zoom in mentally and see all the details. My mind is too distracted to do that. So what did I find joy doing, picking out cool images and delighting myself in my diligence and detail of the recreation of it. After all, mimicry is the best type of flattery.

    Whether or not that's considered "fan art" or not, you can keep discussing. I don't have the time nor state of mind to get into all that.

    I'm most likely not going to continue to post anything in Fan Art anymore, but that doesn't mean I won't stop painting. I recently went to Belize for 3 weeks and I'm interested in recapturing a lot of moments that happened down there. So any sort of "fan art" is going to be put on hold for a loooong time, if ever. Whatever I do create after this will go on my deviantART account only.
  13. TDHArtist LFL Webstrip Artis

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2000
    star 4
    Dude, that is a HUGE cop-out to getting a crit by us. By throw it away, did you simple hit delete? Don't blame the fact you were called on by us to show your method as an excuse to "Hang it up". I've been working in Photoshop, Corel and other programs long enough to know what you're doing. Even Drew Struzan has flaws in his work and his likenesses are the best.

    As someone pointed out in the last thread....

    [image=http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/810/look9ag.gif]


    Don't play the "OH WHOA AS ME!" card. You asked Cat for a Lucasfilm hook up. You were busted doing photo manipulation art... which had you been honest about it, would have been cool and I tried to be nice about it but if you can't take a Critique or a Comment with some professionalism, why bother? ANY Editor will call you on it.

    I'm sorry... I don't need people telling me MY motivation behind my comments. You were caught and you can't handle it. If you had been honest from the get go, NONE of this would have happened and instead, you made good people like Cat, Otis and honestly, Myself, out as witchhunters when all we set out to do was make YOU better.

    Now... you can be a man about it and continue and show us something from your heart... or you can continue down the dark path. Consume you it will... as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice.

    What it boils down to, Jace, is if you like doing it... just do it man. Screw what we say. Just be honest, man... If what you're doing is true, I would LOVE to see a sketch from you. A REAL honest sketch from you. It's not out of being a jerk, it's out of wanting to see what you truly have.
  14. TDHArtist LFL Webstrip Artis

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2000
    star 4
    I think it's now time to just let this go and move on. Agreed?
  15. soitscometothis Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2003
    star 5
    I think it's now time to just let this go and move on. Agreed?


    Yes. It's a shame that Jace let his enthusiasm to be part of the forum run away with him, as I felt that he contributed a positive vibe to this place.

    I think it's worth stressing that the only thing he did wrong was deliberately misleading the forum as to the level of creativity involved in making his pictures. Photomanipulation is a perfectly valid form of art or illustration, but you should make it clear that is what you are doing. That way nobody gets discouraged comparing their drawing to a perfect image taken from a photo.
  16. EmilieDarklighter Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2002
    star 4
    I think it's now time to just let this go and move on. Agreed?

    Agreed.
  17. Otis_Frampton LFL Artist, Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2001
    star 4
    And I think it's important to note that we were never trying to MAKE it about photo vs. non-photo. Other people were trying to interject that issue. Once again, if anyone is unclear about that, go back and read the threads in question. It's not fair to paint us with that brush (no pun intended), when all we were doing was trying to do was get to the truth of the techniques used, and not to judge the techniqes.

    That's it. I'm done.

    -Otis
  18. DarthZemog Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2002
    star 4
    So was that like the Fan Art Boards first family fight? :confused:

    I don't know how it's done in your house, but once the fight is over, it's time for huggs and pie! [:D] :D

    ~DZ

    My apology Ottis, I din't mean to imply that you did your work solely for the money. I know I would work for sand if I was asked like yourself to do art for LFL, as you said, "just to do something officially SW". Okay, now I'm moving up out of this thing like the Jeffersons! :)
  19. EmilieDarklighter Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2002
    star 4
  20. HanSolo29 Manager Emeritus + Official Star Wars Artist

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2001
    star 6
    I just want to bring something that I think needs to stop...

    Individual request threads.

    I don't know if they bother you as much as they bother me(redundancy-wise), but I think it's time that another course of action be taken. Currently, I have just been locking each of them and redirecting them to the Official Request thread. But it seems that recently, they have been coming in bigger waves, so instead of locking them, I think they should just be removed from the boards completely. This way, when you browse down the thread topics, you won't see all these request threads locked - you'll just see the topics you want to see.

    As always, let me know what you think. ;)
  21. Obi-Dawn Kenobi Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 4
    Clean forums are always nicer on the eyes. I see no problem with it.
    Will you lock them and then let them sit for a while so that their author's have a chance to come back and read the reason for the lock before deletion?
  22. HanSolo29 Manager Emeritus + Official Star Wars Artist

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2001
    star 6
    Yes, I was plannning to do that. The last thing I want to do is create confusion by deleting the threads right away. ;)
  23. Obi-Dawn Kenobi Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 4
    :cool: Thanks for the answer. I suspected that's how you would handle them and I think it's a good idea.
  24. wicktone Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2003
    star 3
    Sounds like a good plan to me. It does seem like there's been more individual request threads popping up lately...
  25. HanSolo29 Manager Emeritus + Official Star Wars Artist

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2001
    star 6
    Now that we got the individual request threads squared away, it's time to bring up the Official Request thread located at the top of the forum page.

    I know I mentioned in the thread that we would give it a month to see how it works and to be honest, I fell behind on that a few days and just noticed it tonight. So, my next question for you - how do you think the new request system is working? Is it working? What could be changed? Scrap it and bring back the old?

    Let me know what you think!
Moderators: Corellian_Outrider