The Official Conquest discussion thread! (Spoilers allowed)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by LawgSkrak, Mar 7, 2001.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Wildwookiee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2001
    star 4
    I think that Kyp is Angry as well, He's mad at the loss of life, and he's determined to stop it. I don't think that he's going over to the dark side...I think that he is correct in a way. If you look at the Vietnam War, The U.S tried to be the "good guys." This police action of fanning the flames with the intention of quelching the fire had the result of hundreds of thousands loosing thier lives for nothing. If the Whitehouse had said, go in, and by anymeans stop this conflict, it could very well have saved more people than it hurt, and not lasted as long. The Jedi's hesitation to action, and thier unwillingness to cooperate with eachother is both making them weak and vunerable. They are easy targets to those who want to extinguish them. The line between light and dark is very unclear. Is it right to kill someone in defense, or is it wrong to kill altogether. where is the line of morality?
  2. JediAlly Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2000
    star 4
    You're right about the Jedi not being a united force is a hindrance to them. I'm hoping that'll change in Rebirth.

    As for Kyp going over to the dark side, I think he's just one step away from doing that. In any case, in order for the Jedi to become a united force, Kyp and Luke, or Kyp and Corran, are going to have to have it out. With words, definitely. With lightsabers, I hope not, but if it comes down to that, then so be it.
  3. Darth Cerberus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 1999
    star 3
    Nice analysis, Gandolf. To a certain extent I agree with what you're saying. But I really do not think that Jacen has gone as far with that line of thought as you have.


    Look at his final scene when he accuses Anakin of pride (perhaps with some justification) and that Anakin doesn't believe that Luke can teach him anything more. I think this is more a matter of Jacen shunting his own private opinions regarding himself onto someone else. Jacen is the one who believes he has a better understanding of the Force than Luke (DT:eek:); and who is constantly lecturing Luke about how Jacen's beliefs are the right, and only, ones. And then of course there is that mind-blowing statement in BP where Jacen says the entire Jedi Order are wrong in their actions and beliefs, and perhaps if Jacen dies they might start doing what he wants. Actually, that's about the only good idea he's had so far since he obviously hasn't been paying attention to all the other Jedi who have fallen in the line of duty.


    The problem of course is that Jacen does not know what he wants, yet continues to lecture and put down anyone who does anything that he disapproves of. Look at how in the first chapter Jacen flinches first when he tries to intimidate Anakin (p 26). While being over confident is also a problem, being paralysed by fear and indecision is at least as bad. Especially when you are intolerant of everyone else's points of view and want them all to come and hide with you until you sort yourself out.


    Ikrit says that it is good that Anakin mourns for the lives lost at Centrepoint. What about Jacen? He worried for a little while afterwards that maybe he was wrong (ie not about the lives he indirectly lost) - until he had his dream, at which point he immediately went back to being utterly convinced he had all the answers. This does not convince me that Jacen dreams of peace for the NR. The fact that he did not flinch from turning his back on his fellow citizens and allies at Centrepoint illustrates that. The Jedi are supposed to be the guardians of the galaxy. Jacen's interests begin and end with his family.


    Jacen's rhetoric of peace wrapped up in accusations of the dark side at anything he does not like, is at least as dangerous as Kyp's anger at being betrayed by the people he has actively been trying to protect (albeit with the secondary aim of self absolution).





  4. Jades Fire Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 1998
    star 4
    A review of Conquest.

    Conquest is a teenage book. The book was aimed squarely at the now-teenage audience that grew up loving the Young Jedi Knights and Junior Jedi Knights children's books. If that is the case, you will love this book. If that is not the case, I think you will find the book enjoyable, but somewhat lacking a more adult feel.

    I felt the prose was easy, simple, and straight-forward. While it didn't throw you out of the story, it did feel rather unpolished many times. I am a fairly leisurely reader, but I quickly finished this book, and it wasn't because of long stretches of reading.

    There is pretty much only one plot -- Anakin's quest to rescue the Jedi students and his best friend Tahiri, who is captured by the Vong. All the minor subplots, and there aren't many, exist to serve the main plot. We are introduced to the Vong Shapers, who are the ones who build and shape the Vong biolocial creatures. The Vong Shapers want a captured Jedi student to study and shape, thus we have the torturing of a 14-year old character, while understated and not explicitly shown, is in my opinion not quite appropriate. And older character (18 yrs or older) would have been better (Danni Quee anyone?), but that would not have served Anakin's quest.

    Within the main plot, the book is quite entertaining and good. Not the best story in the NJO, but far from the worst. Anakin meets "Shamed Ones", Vong who haven't been blessed by the Gods, which could provide a 'fifth element' to the Vong that we haven't see so far. Anakin travels with one of these Shamed Ones, but I don't think I came to any greater understanding of the Vong by this. Too many times, the Vong was dismissive of Anakin's questions to gain a greater understanding of the Vong. Anakin's final solution or epiphany is likely to generate discussion among fans.

    However, this one plot, lazer-focus on Anakin comes at the expense of the rest of the story. The scenes with Talon Karrde seemed tacked on, like a character needed to fulfill a role, but then quickly forgotten. His scenes were too rushed. Boom, bang, pow -- Karrde marches in, gets the kids, escapes with them, then is pushed off to the side to be used later. The Karrde sequences didn't ring true, didn't seem like Talon Karrde; I couldn't imagined Karrde saying those lines. Karrde showed too much bluster and an arrogance that I don't remember about Karrde. It lacked any of the finesse and subtlety of Karrde. Booster Terrik would have fit those scenes and dialog better than Karrde.

    Jacen and Jaina were set up to have a side mission, sub-plot of their own, but those scenes were never shown. In the end, they show up and we are quickly told how their mission went. It is too bad. This could have been a strong second plot, providing some additional character development for J&J, especially considering Jacen's re-embracing of the Force, given Jaina a bit of character development she hasn't really had since Ruin, and provided a longer book for readers tired of paperback books that barely approach 300 pages.

    Finally, as the book used to sort of fill-in for the cancelled Knightfall Trilogy, it drops the ball on a couple of key points. The final reconcilliation between Han and Leia was supposed to occur in the Knightfall books, but Han and Leia are not mentioned in this book. I think that important dangling plot thread should have been taken care of in the Prologue. Second, we don't find out the fate of Leia, all we know is that she spent a lot of time in the bacta tank. I don't know if that was done on purpose or not. Both these examples indicate, I think, that the Han/Leia separation was an attempt to generate false tension in the marriage, and that Leia getting her legs whacked so badly in BP that their fate is unknown was done merely for shock value.

    So far, the New Jedi Order books have been consistently mediocre to good, but haven't quite approached the excellence of at least half-a-dozen of the Bantam SW books. While the Vong are finally taking shape, they are still written as the big, bad boogy mons
  5. LawgSkrak Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 1999
    star 4
    Finished the book the other day, and really enjoyed it. too short though, and we have to wait until August for the next one.

    Poor Ikrit. :(
  6. Bubba Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2000
    star 5
    God bless his soul. Valiant act of sacrifice though.
  7. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    Let us all have a moment of peace for dear depareted Ikrit... :_|
  8. LawgSkrak Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 1999
    star 4
  9. Bogga Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 1998
    star 4
    On the subject of Anakin's lightsaber, I think it's fairly obvious why his saber has to stay purple. Purple is a mix of blue and red, of what are typically colors used by the light and dark sides of the Force, respectively. Anakin himself contemplated how he'd been tempted before, and whether some of his actions were of the dark side (such as his burning of the Yavin 4 forest). I'd say the purple lightsaber is simple meant to show how he occasionally (for now) allows his anger and fear to get the best of him.
  10. GirlJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2000
    star 3
    enjoyed this book very much. A good read. It flowed and worked very well.

    can't wait til August!

    I liked following Anakin's story & also Tahiri. The Vong want to shape a Jedi who is still young, therefore Tahiri was perfect for them, at 14, still young enough.

    Question: Did Tahiri go over to the dark side when she cut off Mezhan's head? I think she kinda did.

    Anakin nibbled at the dark side some, but I don't think he ever really used the dark side per se, he is constantly thinking about it and that is good, that is what is keeping him from really going there, IMO.

    I was sorry that Anakin when he was thinking about being blind in the Force around the Vong, etc, that he didn't think more about Jacen and contemplate or perhaps have an understanding of what Jacen's explorations of "turning the force down" etc were like. I see Jacen as deliberately exploring being force blind, to see what his strengths are without the force. Anakin did that in Conquest as well, but not by choice.

    I like Anakin a lot, and Tahiri as well, though I'm worried about poor Tahiri may never be the same again. plus these kids are only 14 and 16 so there's a bit of growing they still have to do.
  11. GirlJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2000
    star 3
    Prediction:

    It will be Tsavong Lah showdown vs. Anakin & Jacen.

    TL will capture one of them and use them as bait for the other. Possibly capture Anakin & Jacen will come to get him out. They may differ somewhat philosophically, but they're still brothers.
  12. Destiny_Skywalker Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2000
    star 3
    I really don't see why everyone is so up in arms about Tahiri being tortured by the Vong. It didn't go into messy detail or become the entire focus of the book. Everyone thinks it's such a big deal because she is only 14. She is not an average 14 year old. This girl is training to be a Jedi KNIGHT, she's not some teeny-bopper teenager who spends all her free time on the phone. In a way this was probably her biggest test. She wasn't maimed or anything... it was a test of her will. Now I'm not some sick sadist who says torture is a good thing. Torture is awful. But everyone is saying Keyes was so out of line to torture a young girl. No one threw a fit about Leia being tortured on the Death Star. Then the girl watched her whole planet blow up, and no one called George Lucas a sicko. So why are all these people saying Conquest is filth because a warrior in training is mentally tortured?
  13. GirlJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2000
    star 3
    I didn't think it was done poorly in Conquest. Greg Keyes did a great job of portraying Tahiri's pain and suffering without it becoming so gruesome and horrible as to turn off the reader. We could relate and understand her pain, how it was done, and also the reasons the Vong were doing it. Tahiri's a strong girl-young woman. Plus she's got Anakin's friendship to help her. I liked reading about Anakin's development, he's very interesting and it's good to follow. I like reading what the kids of Han and Leia are going through, Luke's apprentices.
  14. Tahiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2001
    star 4
    It wasn't grusome, and I'd like to say I'm one of those who felt bad for Tahiri, but...it takes a lot more emphasis on the sad part to get me sniffling. There was no in-depth description of how she felt, which I consider good--I always feel stupid crying about something that's in a story ;)

    I'm DYING for Rebirth...and the summer, not to mention. BTW, I should be typing up my history essay, I only have another half hour... ANYWAY (heh heh ^^;; ) Does anyone know when Star by Star will be out? The summary only has Jaina, Jace, and Anakin written in, but do you think Tahiri will be in it too?

    Whoever said Tsavong Lah vs. Anakin & Jace, throw in a bit of Shimrra and it'll be A LOT more interesting!

    Jacen may have philosophical debates and such, and he very well may be right, but he's selfish, and Anakin would not gloat, although Kyp might've...Kyp blew up a planet, okay, and he was under the influence of Exar Kun, but he's been working all his life to make up for it, and it's not like planets haven't been blown up before...

    OK, I need to write up my essay...toodles
  15. Anakin SkySolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    About Anakin's eyes being green on the cover...

    Has anyone seen Therese Nielsen's original Conquest art that she has on-line?

    Here's a link to the final, detail version of the cover of Conquest.

    http://tnielsen.com/artists/nielsen/art/tnconquestdetail.htm

    To me, in this version of the art, Anakin's eyes look pale blue, not green. Anyone else agree (or disagree)?

    Anyway, the picture itself is kind of cool, if only because you can see details, like those of Anakin's outfit, that are covered by the text on the book cover.
  16. GirlJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2000
    star 3
    what i also liked about Conquest is that it had humor and lightness. There were parts that were funny. Like when Vua asked Anakin whether he would gain an artificial hand as he ascended in the Jedi ranks. and when Anakin takes off without pulling up the landing ramp - pure Han Solo stuff. I think he got his wisecracking from mom and dad.

    one thing I wondered about: Anakin tells Vehn when they commandeer his ship "We're Jedi Knights." Since when did Anakin - only 16 - become a Knight? And Tahiri? She was just saying that the Apprentices had all left, meaning that she wasn't an apprentice yet, but then a few hours later she is a Knight? What's the deal with that? faster promotion than Vader's Generals.
  17. LawgSkrak Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 1999
    star 4
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.