The Official Dark Nest I: The Joiner King Discussion Thread (spoilers allowed)

Darth Ozzy - I agree with you on capturing Han and Luke (to a degree) maybe I mis-spoke and should have said - aren't developing the non-movie characters (I include Wedge on this) as well. Zahn, Stackpole & Allston really developed characters for the EU that everyone recognizes instantly - like Thrawn, Corran, Mara....

The message boards a few years ago were littered with threads along the lines of "How cool is Thrawn..." - I just haven't seen characters that well developed or liked in a long time.

 

Thrawn was a drastically different style of villain for Star Wars upon his introduction. He wasn't a cruel, vile villain, nor a mustachio-twirling sinister cardboard cut-out. He wasn't a revolting crime boss or a womanizer, or a masked bounty hunter with mysterious motives (until "Side Trip", that is). He wasn't a supremely evil Dark Lord of the Sith. He was a cultured, sophisticated, highly intelligent military tactician and leader with a taste in fine art.

Vader wasn't, Jabba wasn't, Fett wasn't, Tarkin wasn't, Piett wasn't, and Palpatine wasn't. He was different, and he was cool.

It's a lasting impression.

 

You're saying Palpatine wasn't a sophisticate? You could have fooled me. How'd he get elected Supreme Chancellor (and remember, he was loved), if he was the trailer trash you imply he was. He had an appreciation of fine things, esp art, and he could afford it too. His whole place was filled with pricelss art from all over the galaxy. And he liked classical music, he went to the opera, and never struck me as being low brow.

He was more regal than Thrawn ever was. Who elected Thrawn to do anything? No one. Palpatine dragged him out of exile. That's really the same as being elected leader of the entire galaxy. All Thrawn did was hurt people. He was a "classy" thug, much like a Bond villain. How glorious can one be while enslaving people, and blowing up apartment buildings? (Of course, so did Palps, but no one knew that. To the people of the Republic, he was a hero. So with that racket going on, how is he lesser than Thrawn, when he was still loved, and the Imperial military weren't?)

Yeah, Thrawn was "cultured". To the point of it being a caricature of how aristocrats supposedly behave. (One look at the Windsors dispels that myth, and they're supposed to be the classiest.) His people are cold and calculating. They don't strike me as anymore sophiscated than any other snobby group. Of course such people always see themselves as better than anyone else.

Why do people go so far in the butt kissing of Thrawn? How smart was he? He went out like a punk. And his highly uncreative comparison to Palps being killed by a servant, another spit at Vader IMO, and not nearly the same thing, didn't make me fall of my chair in awe, I thought it was contrived and actually funny. It was SNL, not MacBeth.

 

Thrawn was a snob, not a sophisticate. There's a difference. We're supposed to think he was so cultured and sophisticated because of the absolutely ridiculous, hyper-Gary-Stu crap about him being able to conquer an entire planet based on looking at a few pieces of its art.

You can't tell everything about an entire planet based on looking at a few pieces of its art. You can't tell everything about an individual artist based on looking at a few pieces of their art.

I once saw someone make an analogy: "Try to imagine Thrawn plotting an invasion of Earth with only a cache of Road Runner cartoons as his guide, and deducing that Earthlings can be defeated with anvils and rocket skates."

Maybe Thrawn was a passable villain back before the PT came out and we saw firsthand just how evil, wily, and clever Palpatine was, but now he's just a poor man's Palpatine. No, even that's being too kind. He's a deep-in-credit-card-debt man's Palpatine.

 

Maybe he would view invading Earth as a challenge like none other, since the coyote NEVER dies!!!!!!!!!! Very funny, Shelley. That made my day!

 

Thrawn was a snob, not a sophisticate. There's a difference. We're supposed to think he was so cultured and sophisticated because of the absolutely ridiculous, hyper-Gary-Stu crap about him being able to conquer an entire planet based on looking at a few pieces of its art.

You can't tell everything about an entire planet based on looking at a few pieces of its art.

Taken face value, Thrawn´s claims about what he could infer of a culture based on it´s art were kind of odd, but it has to be remembered that one couldn´t take Thrawn´s own words as truth. He was deliberately creating a myth of himself among his own troops and his foes. And as HoT shows, the man was obsessed with information. Most likely the claims about art were mostly just a part of his "facade" and his decisions were really based on solid, hard facts.

 

That's a great image...Thrawn watching cartoons with a bowl of popcorn.

As for Thrawn vs. Vader and Palpy...

He was introduced in 1991. At that time, there were no prequals, very little other background info on Vader and the Emperor. Vader was a man in black armor who was father to Luke Skywalker. Yes, he was eventually redeemed, but the movies were about Luke, not Vader. He was still an evil villian until the end, who used terror and intimidation to get his way. The Emperor was a man in robes who in ESB wanted Luke turned or dead. Same thing in RotJ. That was his story, that was it. He hadn't started as a senator, manipulated the Republic and the galaxy, and turned Anakin, he was just a bad guy who had Death Stars built and wanted Luke to become a darksider or die. So when Thrawn came out, he was fairly unique in the Star Wars universe. He was cunning, using enemies fears and tricks versus outrightt firepower. Vader and the Emporer were known mainly for blowing things up, force choking, and force lightning.

The point is, when Thrawn was introduced in 1991 he was original compared to Vader and the emperor. Tiershon, your points about Palpatine being loved are valid, but in the context of this arguement, null. People just did not know that about Palpatine in 1991.

 

That's more like it Rogue.

I think it would be pretty easy to defeat humanity with anvils.

Rocket skates? I don't know. They wouldn't get that. Maybe in China.

 

Don't forget about the Acme super-hero outfit, or the Acme Genu-ine boomerang (guaranteed to return) or the "painting a mural of the road on the wall for the bird to smack into" methods of defeating your foes!!!!

 

Roadrunner's Diary

 

Fortunately, his RPG stats tell the real story.

He was a genius tactician; we can presume he liked to sucker people in with the "art" thing and see how gullible they were otherwise...

 

That rocked. Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

He was a genius tactician

Yeah...yeah...I'd like to have seen him up against Vader, possibly only the smartest military leader in the Empire.

 

From a strict perspective of knowledge of historical tactics, Thrawn would win hands-down.

For the proper application of the right tactics at the right time, my money'd be on Vader.

 

HA HA HA!

That's one of the funniest things ever.

He was hardly subtle, I'd compare him to Tsavong Lah, he'd just go and go and go with whatever force was necessary, he wasn't tactical, he used overkill.

 

Correct. That was my point; we know from various sources now that Palpatine was an art sophisticate as well. He even has a private chamber on the Death Star II resplendant with some expensive sculptures and in RotS he has a freize on the wall depicting the Battle of Ruusan. But he certainly didn't seem like a fancy art connoisseur in RotJ.

 

Oh, is THAT why his plan to attack the Rebel base on Hoth was based on stealth, mucked up only because of Ozzel's stupidity? Is THAT why he was able to set up a trap for Han Solo on Bespin by laying low?

Vader knew a lot more about stealth than we're supposed to think, amidst all this gushing over Grand Admiral Cookie Monster (or is it Grand Admiral Genie from "Aladdin"?). He was also smart enough never to underestimate the Rebels.

Overkill? Maybe once or twice, but not as much as people seem to think.

Thrawn was original? Hardly. The art-lovin' evil genius is kind of a staple of fictional villainy. He also looks strikingly like Mr. Sinister from "X-Men." Acts kind of like him too, although Mr. Sinister is a geneticist, not a military tactician.

Palpatine's manipulations existed before Thrawn was ever thought of -- they're referred to in the Journal of the Whills in the novelization for ANH, and Zahn himself put in references to Palpatine's various schemes in his books. We just didn't SEE these manipulations before the PT.

So Thrawn is the better scholar.

 

This is what I'm talking about - a strictly EU character that invokes this much discussion. I'm not feeling it from talking about a bunch of ants, killiks... what'cha call'ems =)

 

Meh, i think Vader would defeat Thrawn simply because Vader has the Force to fall back on.

It's like the classic Luke-Wedge debate. Luke's the better pilot because he has the Force.

I think it's the same way with Vader and Thrawn. Vader would be the better Commander because he has an advantage Thrawn doesn't.

 

Vader couldn't have done what Thrawn did with only twelve ISDs, even if he started the campaign with the 175 Dreadnaughts. He would have tried to go for an all-out merciless assault and he would have gotten crushed. Tactics weren't his forte; intimidation was. I can't quite see the presence that surrounds Vader on the command bridge surrounding Thrawn, the absolute terror that motivates his officers to perform to almost inhumanly high standards. Still, though, Thrawn would win. Vader was a heavy-handed enforcer: excellent propaganda material, and a great way to terrorize the galaxy and the Rebellion. Thrawn was kind of like the man behind the machine, the one who makes everything run smoothly and is constantly innovating and dreaming up new ways to make it run even better.

Thrawn was what the Empire needed to fight the New Republic; he fought "soft" (in the words of Wedge Antilles) and the New Republic fought "hard". Vader was what the Empire needed to fight the Rebel Alliance; he fought hard and the Rebels fought soft.

 

How do you know?

Gee, like he went out to the Death Star trench with only two other ships, and almost won?

Perhaps, but he was a far better tactician than you claim.

I doubt it.

He made nothing run smoothly. He wasn't even there.

Not really; he failed.

 

I'm sorry Shelley. I didn't mean to offend you. Yes, Vader is absolutely perfect and infallible in every single way. It's silly to even have any other Star Wars villains exist.

My apologies.

 

Um.. is this the Offical Dark Nest Thread or the Thrawn vs. Vader thread?

 

Vader couldn't have done what Thrawn did with only twelve ISDs, even if he started the campaign with the 175 Dreadnaughts.

He never had to. He was there officially. As part of the legitimate government, such as it was.

He didn't show up in a time of peace and happiness for the citizens of the galaxy, to completely ruin things or steal little children. Or disrupt things, and throw a wrench in the works for no reason other than a power grab. He was a jerk. Who needed him?

He would have tried to go for an all-out merciless assault and he would have gotten crushed.

Absolute conjecture.

An all out assault against their own government? They were pretty good at it.
Thrawn had no right to be there. He served no real purpose. He's just a trumped up Bond villain.



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Now then, let's get this convo back on track and discuss the topic at hand, not long dead men.

I find that Jacen missed when he cut Tenel's arm off. He should have lopped the dolt's head off instead.

 

*Coughs out his Hutt lolly*

It's laudable to compare anything to Tsavong. SBS is the only book that made the barking pagans 3D and reasonably written. To compare any tactic to Lah---and the utterly repellent breeziness he was written---is an insult to your free-thinking intellect.

Sal-Solo is the only genuine villain that radiates. A drunken bureaucrat who waited 20yrs for Imperial stability to his own ideals, and the sheer audacity to achieve it with petty resources. And he had the galactic government in a spin.

But spin the dreidl if you want.