The Official Dark Nest I: The Joiner King Discussion Thread (spoilers allowed)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by The2ndQuest, Jun 26, 2005.

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  1. masterskywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2001
    star 5
    Kud,

    You're underestimating Vader's military tactics methinks. During Vader's Vengeance campaign, he was able to single handedly reverse the Empire's military situation post Yavin. He also nearly stopped the Rebels from destroying the Deathstar by attacking the Rebel fighters when they were MOST vulnerable, during the trench run.

    You spoke of "overkill" being poor tactics. I'm not sure where you get your "military expertise", but overwhelming force is a legitimate tactic, and it's harder to use effectively than you might think.

    Vader was the Supreme Commander in Chief of ALL Imperial military forces. Thrawn was just another guy in a white suit, just with more talent than the other guys in white suits.
  2. Kudzu Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2005
    star 5
    Vader had perfectly viable tactics for crushing the Rebellion. I maintain that with Thrawn's resources, he could not have done nearly as well against the New Republic, because they fought differently. The tables were turned; Thrawn didn't have nearly as many ships as the New Republic did, and yet he might have managed to defeat them if Mara had been killed and not "discredited" and Rukh hadn't stabbed him dead. Like Palpatine, overconfidence got him in the end.

    EDIT - BTW, Ex, it's proper form to call Yuuzhan Vong by their full name, because their last name simply indicates domain and their first name only means that you think that they are unworthy of a domain. There are, though, exceptions. For example, Tenel Ka is Tenel Ka's name. Not Tenel. Tenel Ka.

    Sort of like Mary Sue, but I digress.

    Vong naming conventions (examples: Shoon-mi Esh; Niriit; Shimrra; Onimi; Kunra; Harrar; Yo'Gand; Ma'Shrod) haven't been entirely explored, but it seems possible that certain domains consider it acceptable for their members to abandon their domain names in service to the gods (as with Niriit and Harrar) and certain domains demand that Shamed Ones belonging to them drop their domain names to disassociate themselves with such vile and cursed people. Shimrra seems to have possibly dropped his domain name of Jaamane out of sheer arrogance; because he didn't need it anymore. Or that may be custom for Supreme Overlords. As for Yo'Gand and Ma'Shrod (I know I'm spelling that wrong), they may have been awarded the privilege to craft their own names or condense their first name and their domain name or something of the sort.

    BTW, not all Humans in Star Wars have last names, either. And there's always the example of Clat'Ha. That's out there, Humanly speaking. :D
  3. Quiet_Mandalorian Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2005
    star 5
    Hmm. Good question.

    Byzantines?[face_thinking]
  4. Quiet_Mandalorian Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2005
    star 5
    Not really necessary...

    I've always been rather fond of Thrawn's artwork analysis, and I think it could privide some valuable insight, if not into your enemy diectly, than into his culture itself, and what state it's currently in.

    I often wonder if Ho Chi Mihn ever studied American artwork in the 60's. It certainly doesn't give me the impression of a people with any idea of what they were doing at the time, nor for that matter, did most of the trends in Western art then.
  5. Tiershon_Fett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2000
    star 5
    EDIT - BTW, Ex, it's proper form to call Yuuzhan Vong by their full name, because their last name simply indicates domain and their first name only means that you think that they are unworthy of a domain. There are, though, exceptions. For example, Tenel Ka is Tenel Ka's name. Not Tenel. Tenel Ka.

    WTH? Tell it to the ACLU.

    A little too much...
  6. Darth Pipes Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 5
    It was Zahn who's pushed the theory that Vader was a poor military commander, which is a bunch of crap. Vader flushed out the Rebel bases on Yavin and Hoth. He replaced incompetent commanders like Ozzel with good ones like Piett. If it wasn't for Han, he would have successfully defended the Death Star all by himself. With the exception of Piett, it appears that Vader was the only good military commander the Empire had.
  7. Kudzu Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2005
    star 5
    All by himself...and with several squadrons of TIE fighters and a few turbolaser turrets as well. That's not tactics; that's shooting nerfs in a barrel. At Hoth, he used overwhelming force to win the battle. The Rebellion could be squished in all-out combat by overwhelming force. When it was the New Republic, the Empire was in the minority. The tables were turned. And yet Thrawn took back several sectors and laid siege to Coruscant itself without consequence (except that it made the New Republic need the crystal grav trap and that tripped him up at Bilbringi) with a fleet that started out as basically Death Squadron without the brilliant officers and the Super Star Destroyer. Thrawn fought to counter the New Republic, and Vader fought to counter the Rebel Alliance. Both strategies worked well in their time.

    As an aside, I think I've been confusing "soft" and "hard", which being as that they are antonyms is somewhat humiliating to say the least.
  8. Paladin307 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 24, 2004
    star 2
    Several squadrons? I saw Vader with 2 ties. Funny, everyone always talks bad about tie fighters, but in the hands of Vader and his two wing men, they devestated the Alliance fighters.
  9. ForceSynaesthesia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2005
    star 1
    i don't know if this has been answered yet, but why on page 278, they mention Zakarisz Ghent. I thought his name was always plainly- Ghent, since when did this become his last name, and he got a first name? I always thought Ghent was his first name.
  10. Colt 45 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2000
    star 2

    I noticed that too, Forcealphabet ;). I guess Denning figured at least one of Zahn's single-named characters deserved a full name.

    And I'm lost...go away for a few days, and the TJK thread turns into a Vader/Thrawn tactics superiority discussion? [face_worried]
  11. Fett-One Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2005
    I just finished reading this book and I enjoyed it.

    Is anyone else curios as to how Luke's and Mara's lightsabers/blaster were losing power? I'm assuming Lomi Plo had something to do with it but how? It seems a bit strange that somebody could drain them through the force, when no one else has ever demonstrated this ability before. I'm guessing this means that Jacen isn't the only one to learn a few new tricks with the force.
  12. Colt 45 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2000
    star 2
    ya know, I forgot about that. Good point!
  13. Reecee Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2004
    star 3
    Ghent was firstr named in Balance Point
  14. ForceSynaesthesia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2005
    star 1
    so his whole name was first mentioned in Balance Point? Why is it then that they have always called this boy by his last name, until now. I guess because he is more respectible now, a professional, wheras before he was an underground slicer. Is this the reason of his name change?
  15. JediFreac Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2002
    star 4
    yeah, Tyers wanted to send out kudos to Ghentz at JediNet, who used to be (I wonder if he still is) an unofficial liason for fans and authors. Ghentz (note the z)'s real name is Kris.
  16. Jedi_Matt Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2002
    star 4
    [face_laugh] =D=.


    IIRC, in the tie-fighter game, Thrawn and Vader worked directly together, so to say Thrawn did nothing is wrong, if taken literally which is how it came across.

    Vader is good, super good, but he can't be king at everything he does. There's only so much anyone can be super good at. It'd be pretty damn boring if everyone was good at everything.

    Thrawn was a master tactician, he wasn't quite as good at lying to Noghri.
  17. Excellence Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 7

    Fortunately, his RPG stats tell the real story.

    The night will end, dp4m, and we'll get a post from you devoid of RPGing one dawn.
  18. Drew_Atreides Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2002
    star 5
    Yeah, i wondered this too. When it first happened to Mara, she was fighting that Assassin bug, so i thought maybe it was some form of power that THEY had, but then it happened to Luke to against Welk.

    I was confused at that point. Don't quite understand the point of the power, but hopefully it'll be explained...
  19. Excellence Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 7

    EDIT - BTW, Ex, it's proper form to call Yuuzhan Vong by their full name, because their last name simply indicates domain and their first name only means that you think that they are unworthy of a domain. There are, though, exceptions. For example, Tenel Ka is Tenel Ka's name. Not Tenel. Tenel Ka.

    No.

    It is the publishing pushers who insist in calling them the full name. I'm aware what Rapuung barked at Anakin. There's hardly an occasion where someone calls or mocks them Vong---aside from me, that is. Rare enough I could memorise each time. I've come to consider believing Del Rey genuinely loves their creation, the sadistic pagans that they were---and aside from Salvatore, Stover and Denning, utterly superficially written---that they even want their readership to show respect. Skywalker and the other cast are several times mildly reprimanded for a Vong truncation. It's okay they're genociding the stars like tidalwaves, their nemesis can't even slang their species name.

    I call the sadistic scream-barking pagans Vong. It's that simple.

    Page wasting blokes who call their own hair hair, but call human hair head-fur. Whenever I came across that I was reminded of such writing prowess being displayed there. I was cast out of the family, the way Homer threatened Barty if he lost to Lisa's upcoming ice hockey match. Bereft of a home, I wondered long and lonely, pondering the greatest mystery known to hungry consumers: did fiction have anything worth reading? And where.

    A wolf wondered by, snipering a suggestion. Suspicious despite seeing tit on the first page, Game of Thrones proved otherwise. My forlorn exile had come to an end; worse, Karen and Troy have threatened me to return to Star Wars.

    Apparently, there's a siege of immaturity I shouldn't miss. [:D]
  20. Blithe Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2003
    star 4

    Kyp Durron used it in the JAT on Luke's Lightsaber.
  21. Jedi_Matt Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2002
    star 4
    Kyp used that power on Mara Jade's Z-95 headhunter in the JAT/I, Jedi story. It's called drain power, and er... it does exactly what it says on the tin :p



    I've just had a thought though... In I, Jedi, corran has that dream of mr Halcyon senior fighting Tyris and being stabbed in the chest with a lightsaber, and absorbing the power and making his lightsaber short out...

    Is this just him using absorb/dissipate energy, the Halcyon bloodline gift, or did he also use drain power to put the blade out, in which case that's dark side :p.

    I'm no expert in physics by any means at all, but if he absorbed the power, surely what is still coming out the weapon would still be there, kinda like Yoda absorbing Force Lightning, but not draining Dooku. Whereas what halcyon senior did was remove the power so he couldn't re-ignite it, IIRC.

    Anyone else have thoughts on this?
  22. Rohniss Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2005
    star 4
    if the drain power/absorb in question wasnt a darkside power the telekinetic crush he used on Tyris certainly was. :)
  23. Fett-One Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2005
    I haven't read those novels in so many years that I completely forgot about that.
  24. Kudzu Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2005
    star 5
    I'm talking about their actual names: Tsavong Lah, Nom Anor, Vua Rapuung, Nem Yim, Yoog Skell, Nas Choka, etc. But it pisses them off if you call them "Vong" as well. But it's just incorrect to call a Yuuzhan Vong by only their first name or only their domain name. It's inspecific.

    I don't think this warrants a real response, does it? I played hookie in all my Excellencese classes the year I signed up for them. Didn't attend a single one. [face_tired]
  25. Tiershon_Fett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2000
    star 5
    I'm talking about their actual names: Tsavong Lah, Nom Anor, Vua Rapuung, Nem Yim, Yoog Skell, Nas Choka, etc. But it pisses them off if you call them "Vong" as well. But it's just incorrect to call a Yuuzhan Vong by only their first name or only their domain name. It's inspecific.

    I think someone needs to take a little break from SW and spend some time an a place called "reality".
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