The Official Dark Nest II: The Unseen Queen Discussion Thread (spoilers allowed)

QM: You can take my body but I'll just get someone to put me in one of those Spiders.. or maybe a cool cyborg body with 4 arms , or maybe transfer my essence and posses a suit of Mandalorian armour.

Anyways my Rebuttal:

Gimme a Break, how is it Yoda's fault that Anakin is for lack of a better word.. a Moron. *Speaking of the PT-Anakin here, not JEJ's Vader so dont lynch me*. Ill accept that the Council should have done SOMETHING, or perhaps noticed something was amiss (wheres the great forseeing the future deal when you need it? Why didnt the Dark Woman tell what see saw?..) Anakin couldnt even control himself, he was foolish for LISTENING TO AN ADMITTED SITH LORD.. and BELIEVING HIM.. never ever ever believe what a SITH LORD says.. and if your going to go into a deal with him get what you want first then think about doing what he wants outta you. Sids was able to play him like a stolen two dollar fiddle because he was so weak and impulsive.. he listened to and believed everything a SITH LORD said.. cmon thats stupidy at its finest.

Ofcourse I dont like Anakin at all anyways.. never growed up.. still the little arrogant snot from TPM, still impulsive.. needed to be kicked down a few hundred notches.. Ofcourse you being a slave and basically worthless and then told ever since you were 9 years old that you were some kind of avatar for the religion (for lack of a better word) you follow would give anyone some megalomanical tendancies..

In summary Anakin = bad news, stupid, impulive, arrogant, loyal.. bad combination.. it means hes easy to wind up and even easier t control if your his "friend".. Mad Props to Palpy for bieng the master manipulator that he was though..

That said Hes a far better Villan than he ever was as a tragic hero, because I simply dont find anything at all tragic about him.

EDIT:
I was agreeing with T_F because I thought T_F was talking about the whole Darkside thingy

 

Good points.

 

And ones that seemingly contradict her earlier post....

 

Y thank you/

-L.

 

the Jedi would never have let anakin have his family.

 

That was a good explaination

 

Palpatine didnt just show up in a time of politcal tensions and economic depression, he had a large part in creating it. Or at the least, worsening it, his entire political career was a catalyst.

That sa

 

Just some things you might be forgetting about mara:

1)If she had been on Jabba's sailbarge luke, han etc would be dead.
2)She trained the solo brat (no easy task)
3)Kaarde valued her as a smuggler so much because she was SO DEADLY and got things done.
4)Who ended up being imprisoned on Myrkyr Mara or Luke
5)We know mara wears the trousers in the marriage, cos luke knows when to back off.
6)She fights of disease and has a child (with lukes help) doesn't that count as testing
7)She is a kick ass pilot "if anyone could find zonama sekot, it would be her"
8)She was trained from an infant by the Emperor (not a nice childhood)
9)She was an EMPEROR'S HAND (Now i don't know about you but i take that to mean she was just a tinsy little bit dangerous) (excuse the sarcasm)
10)She might not be the strongest in the force, but she has DEFINITELY been around the block. Experience means alot more than power (Obi-wan Vs Anakin)

Please understand that im not tryin to step on any toes

But if you think im got something completely screwy plz tell! (as im sure you would neway)


Oh and Jacen's only real competion at the mo is luke.
Although Jaina and Zekk wid da killik mind meld would be good together against him, and they would be angry.

 

Just some things you might be forgetting about mara:

1)If she had been on Jabba's sailbarge luke, han etc would be dead.

It's amazing anyone would be serious about this ridiculous assertion. This is LUKE and HAN we're talking about. No two bit flunkie could kill them. Jabba and his Rancor and the whole palace, nor could the entire Empire kill them. Laughable to say the least. Luke humored the arrogant airhead.


2)She trained the solo brat (no easy task)

Yeah. Excpet she didn't. She let Jaina tear around in despair, falling to the darkside and being suicidal and griefstricken for two years. Before Luke gave her Knighthood on TV. Mara started but dropped Jaina like a hot potato.

3)Kaarde valued her as a smuggler so much because she was SO DEADLY and got things done.

Deadly against a bunch of fat, old guys. Not the grandchildren of the force itself. And Karrde wasn't exactly the Navy Seal of the galaxy, he's a small time info broker and smuggler. Smuggler isn't some noble, kick butt job. It's just a chisler's job, and Mara was good at middle management.

4)Who ended up being imprisoned on Myrkyr Mara or Luke

Oh please! Did Mara invent Ysalamri plot devices? Luke took charge pretty quickly. He escaped.

5)We know mara wears the trousers in the marriage, cos luke knows when to back off.

No, Luke knows how to stroke huge egos and indulge lesser beings. With infinite patience.

6)She fights of disease and has a child (with lukes help) doesn't that count as testing

She heals herslef and gives birth. Well, she's self serving as far as I can see. Has she ever healed anyone else? She had a lot of help from Cilghal and Vergere's tears. All females give birth. I admit giving birth is a trial, but ordinary women do it without pain numbing force techniques and much more often than once. Mara didn't invent childbirth.

7)She is a kick ass pilot "if anyone could find zonama sekot, it would be her"

She's a very good pilot, but compared to the rest of the family she's the red headed cousin. Heh heh. Han and Jaina and Luke and Anakin (both of them) could fly cicles around her blindfolded.


8)She was trained from an infant by the Emperor (not a nice childhood)

She was taken as a kid with memories, that means she wasn't an infant. She remembers her parents reaction.
She was raised by trainers and teachers. Palps wouldn't bother with anyone that hasn't already been trained.

9)She was an EMPEROR'S HAND (Now i don't know about you but i take that to mean she was just a tinsy little bit dangerous) (excuse the sarcasm)

There were a lot of Hands. They weren't that special. they were assassins. Assassins kill peopel like you and me, who have no martial skill. She killed a programmer, etc. Not people like Jacen. You're still using regular combat training to justify how she could beat up a guy that is so powerful, he's a danger to the galaxy.

10)She might not be the strongest in the force, but she has DEFINITELY been around the block. Experience means alot more than power (Obi-wan Vs Anakin)

I'll bit my tongue for that first one.

Second, she was a smuggler for 16 years, and she was the boss, she was in management. She is glued to Luke's side otherwise and he protects her. I'm not saying she's a coward. I am just saying,s he hasn't fought any force users because she's related to most of them, and they would beat her hands down. She's untested.


Please understand that im not tryin to step on any toes

But if you think im got something completely screwy plz tell! (as im sure you would neway)

Blinded by love from overt descriptions of an old lady

Oh and Jacen's only real competion at the mo is luke.
Although Jaina and Zekk wid da killik mind meld would be good together against him, and they would be angry

I'm mad at how Jaina is brought down by that dork Zekk, he's an oxygen thief. Jaina deserves better after serving as one of the glaxay's greatest pilots, than to be yolked to

 

Both Jaina and Jacen should die.

Surprisingly, I actually found this rather amusing.

*pats T_F's head in a condescending fashion*

*ahem*

Mossad agents vs PLO Olympic terrorists?

 

First of all, it wasn´t PLO, it was Black September, and secondly it has nothing to do with SW.

 

No, the point is that assassins often take on dangerous people. T_F throws out one example, and then states that that's typical of everything sheerly because she wants it to be.

 

No, the point is that assassins often take on dangerous people.

Assassins kill all kinds of people. In many cases, totally innocent people. In real world and in Mara´s cases. And when the people are dangerous, they are usually dangerous in other than physical ways. The Emperor´s Hands are really a very "romantic" portrayal of assassins. In a authoritarian state like the Empire there would hardly be any real use for them against internal enemies - even the Jedi seem to have been solely part of the field of the Inquisitors, not the Hands. The other parts of the burocratic machine could handle existing internal enemies. Only rare cases, like the attempted assasination of Luke on Tatooine could have called for a special group of agents like the Hands and even then a use of bomb to take out whole Jabba´s palace would have been more effective. In fact, Mara shows surprising lack of ingenuity when she doesn´t try anything else when Jabba doesn´t let her on the barge. Why doesn´t she steal a speeder bike and go after the barge to make sure that Luke will die? What use is a special agent who can´t come up with a Plan B when Plan A fails?

 

Thank you. That programmer that Mara killed was a programmer. An IT guy.
Mara also killed the wrong guy and he begged for his life. She didn't care if he wasn't the target, she killed him out of spite.

She also killed a guy years after the Emperor died just because she felt like it. Nice person. NOT.

And she was sloppy. She botched almost every mission where the target showed some initiative.

Why doesn´t she steal a speeder bike and go after the barge to make sure that Luke will die? What use is a special agent who can´t come up with a Plan B when Plan A fails?

She only has one plan. Slit her eyes and curl her lip and talk tough. Her fall back plan is bending over so you can see her cleavage.

Maybe Jabba watched the Ginger Kids episode of South Park and hates red heads as much as I do. After all, who needs the latest sleazy dancer when you already have a princess. Oola was a princess. Mara wasn't good enough.

 

Black September parent-group was Fatah, a PLO terrorist cell.

 

No, Fatah is the biggest member organization of PLO. Not a cell. Black September was started as a splinter group of mostly dissatisfied Fatah members - like today´s Popular Resistance Committee in Gaza - and it´s original main enemy was Jordania. How much control Fatah would have over it is dubious; the usual enemies of PLO claim that a lot, but evidence is somewhat lacking in that part. And this discussion should be in some other board, really, not in literature.

 

Perhaps I am mistaken, but in "Shadows of the Empire", I seem to recall the Emperor telling Vader that Luke is more powerful than both of them put together. If I am not mistaken, it was used as an explanation for why they both feared him so much.

If that is the case, it would seem that Luke is, indeed, more powerful than the chosen one, and so much so, that his power exceeds that of the chosen one and the emperor combined.

Then later on, if I remember correctly, it is stated in one of the books that Kyp Durron has more raw force power than Luke, and is, in other words, stronger in the force.

A little later still, if I remember correctly, when Kyp is flying with Anakin Solo in a battle, he thinks to himself that Anakin is stronger in the force than he is, and then thinks to himself that Anakin is the most likely successor to Luke Skywalker.

If I am not mistaken so far, it could be said that if Anakin was stronger than Kyp, he was, then, a fair bit stronger than Luke.

Still, a little later, Vergere, a master of the old republic who has been in the company of the chosen one, states that Jacen is, "The living Jedi dream."

Further still, Ranyar Thul states that Jacen is beyond the control of anyone.

It might not be so far-fetched to say that Jacen Solo may be the most powerful Jedi who ever lived.

He did, afterall, become one with the force, and continue to live.

Vergere did also say to Luke, that by allowing the Skywalker line to continue, he had in essence, created a Jedi dynasty. It might be fair to assume, then, that each generation of Skywalker's would be stronger than the last, as has seemed to be the case so far.

It was also stated somewhere that children born of a Jedi and a non-Jedi, are often more powerful than children born of parents who are both Jedi.

It is also interesting that Ben will only use the force around Jacen. Perhaps if Ben was reluctant to use the force as a result of feeling so much violence and destruction during the war, that says something about his nature. Perhaps then, his willingness to use it around Jacen says something about what he sees in Jacen. Perhaps Jacen appears to him, to be the most safe person to use the force around - the one who has been the least affected, within, by war and conflict. It was said in these books that Jacen is considered to be beyond arguments and conflict, by some of the masters. Maybe his actions with regards to the Chiss, are the only means available, to avert an endless war. His actions were certainly held in high regard by the Bothan fleet commander, as a stroke of tactical genius, even though the commander thought the actions to be those of Jaina, rather than Jacen.

I don't know that Jacen plans genocide. Perhaps he merely plans to take from them, the mind that is driving them, as he did with the old queen mother. Perhaps that simply means that he plans to take Raynar Thul and unseen queen from them.

I find Jacen a fascinating character because if he is so much more powerful than the chosen one ever was, what kind of destiny is before him, and to what degree will the universe be affected by it? Look at the destiny that was before Vader, and the one that was before Luke. Jacen is certainly the next pivotal character in the timeline.

I was also wondering, does anyone know who Vader's grandfather was?

Certainly, his mother had parents.

It would be interesting to discover more about the Skywalker line, and whether or not the family name has any significance - whether or not there were Jedi in the Skywalker ancestry.

 

Wrong word on my part then. They're still associated with the PLO.

How quaint. First, deny State Department documents as the claims of "the usual enemies of the PLO" and then say that the argument should go somewhere else.

At any rate, I'll have to assume that this account of yours has about as much validity as your hero-worshipping view of Colin Powell.

To call up more examples of assassins being tasked with killing dangerous people, I should also mention the WW2 SOE and OSS intelligence services, as well as the Czech operatives who killed Reinhard Heydrich.

 

IIRC Anakin was said to be potentially twice as powerful as the Emperor before the lava bath and after to only equal about 80% of the Emperor. Luke has been said to equal Anakin's potential so he could possibly be stronger than both. Which explains why the Emperor and Vader both wanted him.

We know from Out of Universe Sources Luke is the strongest Jedi period. No one has been shown to have more force potential than him. Some characters Believe they do. (Kyp believes he does but he actually doesn't)

Again Kyp Believes he's stronger. Anakin Solo was probably the closest to Luke in Potential of the Solo Kids. But that doesn't mean he was any stronger just because he's stronger than Kyp who thinks he's stronger in the force than Luke.

Rather Vergere was right, dark or Insane is still up in the air. (I say Dark and Insane myself) But Jacen fit what she needed a powerful Jedi to turn to her view point threw torture and brainwashing. I don't think she's a reliable choice for a power comparison.

Again out of universe sources make it clear Luke is the strongest Jedi. Is Jacen insanely powerful yes even more so after his five year journey amassing various force traditions and adding them to his own skill set.

However in raw Force Potential Luke Leia and Anakin Solo should IMO all be stronger. And Jaina his equal.

Let's use Jaina as an example she hasn't reached anywhere near her potential where as Jacen probably has.

I'm of the opinion that in TUF he surrended to the Darkside fully in that moment. Not becoming one with the force.

Once again Vergere is not a Reliable source. Her Views are a mix of Old Jedi Order (A flawed version of the order), The Potentium and The Sith. There is nothing in Canon G C or otherwise that says each generation gets stronger.

I don't remember anything like that ever being said anywhere.

 

Jacen did the right thing with Ben. He is controlled by the Gorog.
Jacen did the least painful thing. The brat was trying to hurt his infant daughter and her mother.

As for the Skywalkers, Shmi was a normal little girl who was on a ship that slavers overtook. She was taken and was a slave from around seven or eight. There's a whole clan of normal Skywalkers out there.

But Del Rey doesn't care about Skywalkers. They are too busy catering to overexposed EU characters instead. Why do we need another boring book about being MARA retconned to ridiculous proportions (along with Vader being reduced to a dishwasher), instead of Luke and Leia being reunited with their real, cannonical family? I'm sick of generations of Skywalker orphans. Their family isn't dead. Maybe they'd get it together better if they got a glimpse of normalcy. Real functioning family life.

 

I just started reading the book and I apparently don't like it. I had it lying on my bed last night when i went to sleep and when I woke up the back cover was torn cleanly off. And I thought I liked TJK.

Going to run out and pick me up a new one. I can't have my Star Wars books beat up.

-The Rebel Gungan

 

Padmasambhava posted:
I was also wondering, does anyone know who Vader's grandfather was?

Certainly, his mother had parents.

It would be interesting to discover more about the Skywalker line, and whether or not the family name has any significance - whether or not there were Jedi in the Skywalker ancestry.

In TPM book its stated by Qui-Gon that Shimi had some "minor" force sensitivity, but nothing near enough to have been a jedi.

Thats about all we know about the force history of skywalkers b4 anakin.

 

I agree on the orphan issue. Its annoying. As Luke and Leia SHOULD without a doubt realize after the Dark Nest trilogy ::they now know padme is their mother:: they have a whole HALF of their family just sitting out there on Naboo and who knows how many other worlds, that they can get in touch with. That they can re-connect with.

I will be very upset if they dont make an attempt at least to meet them. Because any orphan would.

 

duplicate

 

8)She was trained from an infant by the Emperor (not a nice childhood)

Actually, it was a very nice childhood. She remembers the Emperor with great affection and regards him as a father, even though she knows beyond a shadow of a doubt what a horrible, evil man he was, and how he hurt the people in the family she married into. She lived a life of luxury in exchange for slitting throats. She was not abused in the slightest.

2)She trained the solo brat (no easy task)

She barely trained her, and as Tiershon pointed out, left Jaina to swing in the wind. She didn't even teach Jaina anything she didn't already know. At best, she helped her hone her skills a bit.

5)We know mara wears the trousers in the marriage, cos luke knows when to back off.

Yeah, I know. I can't stand how wishy-washy Luke has become since marrying her. He never stands up to her, no matter how poorly and insensitively she acts. I don't think that that's something to compliment Mara over, though.

6)She fights of disease and has a child (with lukes help) doesn't that count as testing

No. Having a child is a biological function that billions of females of all species engage in every day. Leia gave birth to three children, including twins, and she has survived multiple incidences of torture, not to mention the death of a child (and other hideous traumas). Yet the books never give her any kind of credit, and remind us frequently about how "inept" she is with the Force, how she's "half-trained." If Mara fighting off a disease (which she had a LOT of help with, from Luke, from Vergere, and even from her fetus) and giving birth is a trial that makes her worthy of respect, then I fail to see why Leia is so derided and disrespected.

Jacen did the right thing with Ben. He is controlled by the Gorog.
Jacen did the least painful thing. The brat was trying to hurt his infant daughter and her mother.

Good for Jacen.

But Del Rey doesn't care about Skywalkers. They are too busy catering to overexposed EU characters instead. Why do we need another boring book about being MARA retconned to ridiculous proportions (along with Vader being reduced to a dishwasher), instead of Luke and Leia being reunited with their real, cannonical family? I'm sick of generations of Skywalker orphans. Their family isn't dead. Maybe they'd get it together better if they got a glimpse of normalcy. Real functioning family life.

You said it. There's a wealth of fascinating material that could be explored, especially with Luke and Leia meeting their only blood relatives -- their cousins, their aunt, their grandparents if they're still alive. People were practically doing backflips on various boards over those little snippets of Luke and Leia seeing the holos of their parents. But what does Del Rey do? Commission another book about Mara.